JetBlue Vote....

[B6Busdriver]

Please stick to your (generally) good arguments. Statements like the above are irresponsible and do nothing to further the cause of ALPA here at JB. Our jumpseat policy is much better than most carriers and every OAL pilot I've encountered is truly appreciative of that. They, in turn take care of us when riding OAL.

I never meant to advocate playing games with the jumpseat. The jumpseat and politics do not mix. Again, as I said I do not advocate what some Captains have done over the years but I try to walk a mile in another man's shoes.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Why don't you explain to us exactly what you think "Negotiate in good faith" means for the pilot group? As far as I can tell, you seem to be under the impression you could walk into a car dealership and "negotiate" a car down to a $1. All you need is a "seat at the table" and the dealer to "negotiate in good faith".



Exactly.

So what do you advocate? Continue to do nothing? How much time do you give management?

 

[B6Busdriver]

and a vote for ALPA resolves none of those issues.

What are you selling again?

I'm not selling a darn thing. I have NO interest in any leadership role with ALPA or JetBlue. I have small children and that is where I will continue to dedicate as much time as possible.

I am simply trying to get people to be engaged in their careers. I have seen many a healthy man go out on LTD for cancer, heart issues, etc. It could happen to any of us tomorrow and it is impossible to financially plan with the current level of benefits we are provided.

I am trying to make our pilot group aware that our retirement is at least 35% behind industry standard. We are leaving hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table over a 20+ year career.

Did you see the latest ALPA e-mail on health care? JetBlue pilots are paying 40% of the cost. Here is what the rest of the industry is paying:
Air Tran 26%
Alaska 17%
AA 16.54%
CO 20%
Delta 23%
Fed Ex 12%
Hawaiian 18%
WN less than 20%
UAL 14%
UPS 13%
US Airways 26.6%

What say you Hair On Fire, A350????

Also, our access to health care on LTD is one of the worst benefits in the industry.

You can throw darts at me, call me names, whatever you want but the facts are the facts. It's not pleasant stuff to think or talk about but it is reality. The PVC and the company have had their chance and now it's time to move on. It's just business, don't make it emotional.

All of the anti-ALPA crowd can continue to do nothing and nothing will get done. I'm trying to help further a cause that will hopefuly yield meaningful benefits as our current process fails our pilot group every day.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Why don't you explain to us exactly what you think "Negotiate in good faith" means for the pilot group? As far as I can tell, you seem to be under the impression you could walk into a car dealership and "negotiate" a car down to a $1. All you need is a "seat at the table" and the dealer to "negotiate in good faith".



Exactly.

Again, what is it you advocate? Doing nothing yields nothing. The student council (PVC), try as they might, is ineffective. Please share your vision to improve the benefits of the JetBlue pilot.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Rez:

No, that's not all...we do have issues that need addressing....what we don't need is irresponsible statements about what a union can and cannot do.

When ALPA starts to act like a UNION and not an association of carriers who all do what is in their best interest to the possible detriment of the PROFESSION, then I will consider a vote for ALPA.

Unions do not allow outsourcing. Unions do not allow draconian measures like drug and alcohol testing, security screening, and pension terminations on their membership without large consequences. ALPA has allowed all of these things to occur and the industry is 10 times the mess it was in 1980.

I heard someone say the other day.....there are 55,000 airline pilots in this country. There are 350 million people in this country depending on us. Never have so many depended on so few. If we really yielded our power, noone would #$%% with us....ever. But as we soldier on, our all powerful union stands there, apparently powerless to see into the future and to head off any of the mess that has plagued the industry. Yet you believe that ALPA is so powerful in Washington.....how is that with the security screening, pension terminations, drug/alcohol testing, age 65, you don't want me to even mention Frank Lorenzo or Stephen Wolf.....do you want me to go on?

No thanks.....

A350

Good Lord, in your world the president of ALPA was the one on the grassy knoll the day JFK was shot too!

 

[A350]

Nope....he wasn't on the grassy knoll. But just like the decisions that were made that tragic day, we all have to live with the decisions that the leadership of this UNION have made that have put us in this place in time. Of course there has been external events that have helped the carnage. But IMO, ALPA's structure has been complicit in both the end result and the speed in which it occurred.

I was a dues paying member for over 18 years. I watched the slow motion train wreck that is today's profession. JB is a business. You rail on about how JB is screwing you financially and that they only have their interests at heart. I have news for you. ALPA is a business too. Many ALPA secretaries make more than an RJ Captain.

The guarantee you want is a strong, financially healthy company. It took the SWA guys 30+ years to get where they are today. They did it by sticking together, staying the course, and not caring what the rest of the airlines were doing. The mature contracts of the "elephants" of the past took 50+ years to achieve, and many of those companies no longer exist. Their contracts may never look the same again. ALPA might provide protection for your career, however, there are examples where they did not provide protection for members.

I support many of the initiatives you speak of. Scope, retirement, long term support in the event of a disability. I disagree with you on HOW we get there.

A350

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Nope....he wasn't on the grassy knoll. But just like the decisions that were made that tragic day, we all have to live with the decisions that the leadership of this UNION have made that have put us in this place in time. Of course there has been external events that have helped the carnage. But IMO, ALPA's structure has been complicit in both the end result and the speed in which it occurred.

I was a dues paying member for over 18 years. I watched the slow motion train wreck that is today's profession. JB is a business. You rail on about how JB is screwing you financially and that they only have their interests at heart. I have news for you. ALPA is a business too. Many ALPA secretaries make more than an RJ Captain.

The guarantee you want is a strong, financially healthy company. It took the SWA guys 30+ years to get where they are today. They did it by sticking together, staying the course, and not caring what the rest of the airlines were doing. The mature contracts of the "elephants" of the past took 50+ years to achieve, and many of those companies no longer exist. Their contracts may never look the same again. ALPA might provide protection for your career, however, there are examples where they did not provide protection for members.

I support many of the initiatives you speak of. Scope, retirement, long term support in the event of a disability. I disagree with you on HOW we get there.

A350

And they did this how again? Oh, that's right, 'management' took care of them.....

 

[boomlrd]

But Spirit is ALPA, we went on STRIKE and still got a concessionary contract!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nope....he wasn't on the grassy knoll. But just like the decisions that were made that tragic day, we all have to live with the decisions that the leadership of this UNION have made that have put us in this place in time. Of course there has been external events that have helped the carnage. But IMO, ALPA's structure has been complicit in both the end result and the speed in which it occurred.

You seem to be seperate yet effected by union leadership and structure....

I was a dues paying member for over 18 years. I watched the slow motion train wreck that is today's profession. JB is a business. You rail on about how JB is screwing you financially and that they only have their interests at heart. I have news for you. ALPA is a business too. Many ALPA secretaries make more than an RJ Captain.

So basically what you are saying is unions and corporations are the same, are obligated by the same law and function for the same purpose....

If so, then you are saying you'd rather roll the dice with management then pay for a "third party service".

The guarantee you want is a strong, financially healthy company. It took the SWA guys 30+ years to get where they are today. They did it by sticking together, staying the course, and not caring what the rest of the airlines were doing. The mature contracts of the "elephants" of the past took 50+ years to achieve, and many of those companies no longer exist. Their contracts may never look the same again. ALPA might provide protection for your career, however, there are examples where they did not provide protection for members.

Are unions supposed to provide ubiquitous artificial market protections ?

I support many of the initiatives you speak of. Scope, retirement, long term support in the event of a disability. I disagree with you on HOW we get there.

A350

So HOW do you suggest the JB pilots get there?

In addition will you reply to my post yesterday at 18:22?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

But Spirit is ALPA, we went on STRIKE and still got a concessionary contract!

Who approved and forced this concessionary contract? Was there a collective mechanism to reject it?

 

[B6Busdriver]

But Spirit is ALPA, we went on STRIKE and still got a concessionary contract!

That's debatable depending on who you talk to. How would they have fared with the direct relationship?

 

[Regul8r]

But Spirit is ALPA, we went on STRIKE and still got a concessionary contract!

That's debatable depending on who you talk to.

Just ask any ALPA rep, boomlrd...it was INDUSTRY LEADING!

 

[B6Busdriver]

Nope....he wasn't on the grassy knoll. But just like the decisions that were made that tragic day, we all have to live with the decisions that the leadership of this UNION have made that have put us in this place in time. Of course there has been external events that have helped the carnage. But IMO, ALPA's structure has been complicit in both the end result and the speed in which it occurred.

I was a dues paying member for over 18 years. I watched the slow motion train wreck that is today's profession. JB is a business. You rail on about how JB is screwing you financially and that they only have their interests at heart. I have news for you. ALPA is a business too. Many ALPA secretaries make more than an RJ Captain.

The guarantee you want is a strong, financially healthy company. It took the SWA guys 30+ years to get where they are today. They did it by sticking together, staying the course, and not caring what the rest of the airlines were doing. The mature contracts of the "elephants" of the past took 50+ years to achieve, and many of those companies no longer exist. Their contracts may never look the same again. ALPA might provide protection for your career, however, there are examples where they did not provide protection for members.

I support many of the initiatives you speak of. Scope, retirement, long term support in the event of a disability. I disagree with you on HOW we get there.

A350

First of all thanks for engaging and keeping it civil. The problem with your post is you want your cake and eat it too. You support the initiatives but you provide no mechanism to fix them.

Obviously you are an Airways or TWA guy that has been negatively affected. It's a shame what has happened to the employees of these two airlines. The lesson learned from TWA, US Air and even Southwest is that it takes financial prosperity as well as an effective union for career success. I love the idea of gaining scope, retirement, merger protection, etc without paying 1.95% but it simply can not be done. The company can not change our retirement without adjusting all the work groups. The company told us during the JBPA campaign they could find a workaround for our retirement, well where is it? Why would the company provide meaningful scope without negotiation? Will scope have any meaning unless in our PEA? No, precedent has been established with the seniority dispute for the 190 guys. Who represents you in a merger? Dave? The BOD? All questions to think about.

To say I rail on how JetBlue is screwing me is an unfair statement. I'm not beating my chest or posting personal insults. I am however posting the facts as they are. As I have said I have one emotional issue and that is health care on LTD. The rest is just business IMHO. Why would the company provide industry standard benefits unless they have to, especially to such an apathetic group.

The problem as I see it is that so many of the previous ALPA crowd base their support on emotion. Have I been screwed by ALPA? Well I would say I got screwed by my own MEC repeatedly but not ALPA national. I think ALPA national has failed in the past but after 911 I shudder to think what this industry would like if every carrier was living under the direct relationship.

I think we have a great group of guys and gals at JetBlue. I look forward to union representation and many of these great folks getting involved. We have a great opportunity if we vote in ALPA, we have a chance to shape our union how we want it to look. Instead of wallowing in the past I look to the future and hope we could model our union after great examples like FedEx. Again I say doing nothing and living with status quo will yield just that. It's time to move forward.

 

[Lake Alice]

You can argue the merits of the CBA versus the PEA regarding merger/acquisitions all day long and, honestly, no one knows how the PEA will be interpreted until said transactional event occurs. Jetblue has its opinion and the pilot group has it's own. The 3A issue has made most of us tremendously skeptical as to how leadership would handle a merger and hence the push for ALPA. But back to my original point. You can argue the merits of both angles for many issues but facts are facts regarding retirement and benefits. Jetblue pilots cannot get an industry standard retirement without a CBA and because of Jetblues "culture" we cannot change our health benefits. Rob Maruster has stated in the monthly conference calls, which also have transcripts, there are work a rounds for all these issues but "they are too expensive". In most of our opinons this leaves no other option. ALPA at Jetblue is not ALPA at United. We are not out to kill the company. All we are after is a fair retirement and a fair benefits package. Jetblue on its own is not currently willing to provide the pilots with these benefits.

 

[mozzer]

You can argue the merits of the CBA versus the PEA regarding merger/acquisitions all day long and, honestly, no one knows how the PEA will be interpreted until said transactional event occurs. Jetblue has its opinion and the pilot group has it's own. The 3A issue has made most of us tremendously skeptical as to how leadership would handle a merger and hence the push for ALPA. But back to my original point. You can argue the merits of both angles for many issues but facts are facts regarding retirement and benefits. Jetblue pilots cannot get an industry standard retirement without a CBA and because of Jetblues "culture" we cannot change our health benefits. Rob Maruster has stated in the monthly conference calls, which also have transcripts, there are work a rounds for all these issues but "they are too expensive". In most of our opinons this leaves no other option. ALPA at Jetblue is not ALPA at United. We are not out to kill the company. All we are after is a fair retirement and a fair benefits package. Jetblue on its own is not currently willing to provide the pilots with these benefits.

Well said. Card sent.

 

[pilotyip]

All we are after is a fair retirement and a fair benefits package. Jetblue on its own is not currently willing to provide the pilots with these benefits.

Who determines fair, the UAW thought they were being fair with the big three, starting wages now $14/hr as opposed to $28/hr when fairness was the goal.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Who determines fair, the UAW thought they were being fair with the big three, starting wages now $14/hr as opposed to $28/hr when fairness was the goal.

Fair is at least industry standard and we are at 30% behind.

 

[Lake Alice]

That's a good question and industry standard is the obvious answer. Aside from that each pilot group makes up it's own mind what they feel is important. As Jetblue pilots we are not asking for a United contract. We are asking for benefits that better protect our pilots. Some issues considered industry standard are not in the best interest of our pilot group while others are. I see the intent of your UAW comparison however it's not apples to apples. As Jetblue pilots we actually provide a very good service whereas the UAW was the worst in every measurable category. Maybe there is some bias there but should you not be rewarded for a good job? And however subjective that reward may be it is open to negotiation, an ability we do not have. All we have is a "direct relationship".

 

[boomlrd]

Who determines fair, the UAW thought they were being fair with the big three, starting wages now $14/hr as opposed to $28/hr when fairness was the goal.

You think you guys are 30% behind, Spirit is way further behind! We are the only union to ever return to work from a STRIKE without ratifying a TA, much less even seeing the concessionary contract, thanks SPAMEC!

 

[pilotyip]

Fair is at least industry standard and we are at 30% behind.

What if JB can not match industry std and remain profitable? Here is how the UAW does it; they reach a deal with a single company, then go to the next company and say match it or you will be shutdown and all the new cars being sold will be built someplace else, then they go to the next company and repeat. When the auto companies where rolling in money it was a good deal for all. But over the last 30 years it has eliminated 70% of the union jobs, gave great raise to non-union companies, and now it is concession time. Now the Airlines could follow the same path as the UAW and it would be great for 30% of those who still had jobs. This is also great for the non-ALPA airlines that would fly all the passengers when the ALPA pilots were on strike. So you on stike to get what you want. Or go the UAL way and delay flights?