JetBlue Vote....

[WayBack]

When do they hold the vote?

 

[n757st]

Depending on how many cards are turned in will determine if there is a vote. *-Note, I'm neutral on the subject, just stating a fact.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Depending on how many cards are turned in will determine if there is a vote. *-Note, I'm neutral on the subject, just stating a fact.

Just curious, why you are neutral? Have you had personal input on any of the 'improvements' in the last year or so?

 

[B6Busdriver]

Depending on how many cards are turned in will determine if there is a vote. *-Note, I'm neutral on the subject, just stating a fact.

How can anyone be neutral at this point? You either believe the company will make the necessary changes or you believe the process has failed. It's really that simple.

-Your retirement is at least 35% behind
-You have no scope
-You have questionable at best merger protection
-You will be bankrupt if you go on LTD. The new program is a complete slap in the face.

Everything we have is a result of some other union carrier's contract. We have been riding on the coat tails of the industry. It really is no wonder some pilots at other carriers have denied ours a jumpseat. I don't advocate a jumpseat war but it's time this group get together collectively and take charge of our careers.

 

[A350]

B6....what a crock of #$%&.

So when JetBlue decided to give out unlimited cabin jumpseats and allow others to ride in our FA jumpseats, even while it still isn't reciprocated, that is riding the coattails of whom?

Just because we have things that are in other pilots contracts doesn't mean we need a union. At least half of us came from union shops.....that had scope and retirement. Guess what? Scope cost me my job and my union gave away my retirement. A union guarantees a process and nothing more. And the process continually evolves in favor of the airlines that control the union....read UAL and DAL.

A350

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

To answer the original question of the thread without getting into a pissing contest, the card campaign is in full swing. ALPA will wait until they get a good majority of cards before they go to the NMB. 50% + 1 is not good enough. ALPA is in no rush. They simply want to wait and see if and when they will get a decent majority. The target number for interest cards is not being divulged, but feel free to speculate.

 

[B6Busdriver]

B6....what a crock of #$%&.

So when JetBlue decided to give out unlimited cabin jumpseats and allow others to ride in our FA jumpseats, even while it still isn't reciprocated, that is riding the coattails of whom?

Just because we have things that are in other pilots contracts doesn't mean we need a union. At least half of us came from union shops.....that had scope and retirement. Guess what? Scope cost me my job and my union gave away my retirement. A union guarantees a process and nothing more. And the process continually evolves in favor of the airlines that control the union....read UAL and DAL.

A350

You and I worked for the same crappy legacy carrier. Please tell me how scope cost you your job? What process do we have now? Fact, your previous carrier was bankrupt twice in three years and was about to go that way again. Why is it so hard for some of you to get over the past? We need a union and we need to be profitable, it's really simple.

 

[scarlet]

Will be awesome to have no union when AA comes to buy, or USAir, or what about Republic..(yes I know Midwest had union, but most of the pilots were already on the street)
I would want some kind of a contract with the company and a legal department.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

B6....what a crock of #$%&.

So when JetBlue decided to give out unlimited cabin jumpseats and allow others to ride in our FA jumpseats, even while it still isn't reciprocated, that is riding the coattails of whom?

So you get unlimited cabin jumpseats (industry standard) as given by management and that makes the LTD, poor retirement, pay, work rules acceptable?

That is it? Just unlimited jumpseats is all it took for you?

Just because we have things that are in other pilots contracts doesn't mean we need a union. At least half of us came from union shops.....that had scope and retirement. Guess what? Scope cost me my job and my union gave away my retirement. A union guarantees a process and nothing more. And the process continually evolves in favor of the airlines that control the union....read UAL and DAL.

A350

Would you not rather have a union, your own representation, that goes through a process, and decides collectively what to do... meaning, at least you have a chance to influence decisions that effect your career, then simply allow management to make unilateral decisions on your behalf?


What about representation on Cap Hill? Are you comfortable having the ATA represent you?

 

[airjackson]

It really is no wonder some pilots at other carriers have denied ours a jumpseat. I don't advocate a jumpseat war but it's time this group get together collectively and take charge of our careers.

Please stick to your (generally) good arguments. Statements like the above are irresponsible and do nothing to further the cause of ALPA here at JB. Our jumpseat policy is much better than most carriers and every OAL pilot I've encountered is truly appreciative of that. They, in turn take care of us when riding OAL.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

-Your retirement is at least 35% behind
-You have no scope
-You have questionable at best merger protection
-You will be bankrupt if you go on LTD. The new program is a complete slap in the face.

and a vote for ALPA resolves none of those issues.

What are you selling again?

 

[Blue Dude]

and a vote for ALPA resolves none of those issues.

What are you selling again?

No, but a successful ALPA drive provides a path forward to solve them. Show me another way and I'll certainly consider it.

 

[WayBack]

No, but a successful ALPA drive provides a path forward to solve them. Show me another way and I'll certainly consider it.

No, no it doesn't.

 

[viper01]

no, but a successful alpa drive provides a path forward to solve them. Show me another way and i'll certainly consider it.

+1...

 

[Caveman]

No, no it doesn't.

Yes it does. With a CBA the company is required by law to negotiate in good faith. Under the current 'collaborative process' there is nothing to force the company to move forward if they don't want to. We get what they want to give us and nothing more. A CBA gives us a seat at the table with the force of the feds keeping the process moving forward. It doesn't guarantee an outcome but we at least we have a say. Right now we have no power and no leverage.

 

[A350]

Rez:

No, that's not all...we do have issues that need addressing....what we don't need is irresponsible statements about what a union can and cannot do.

When ALPA starts to act like a UNION and not an association of carriers who all do what is in their best interest to the possible detriment of the PROFESSION, then I will consider a vote for ALPA.

Unions do not allow outsourcing. Unions do not allow draconian measures like drug and alcohol testing, security screening, and pension terminations on their membership without large consequences. ALPA has allowed all of these things to occur and the industry is 10 times the mess it was in 1980.

I heard someone say the other day.....there are 55,000 airline pilots in this country. There are 350 million people in this country depending on us. Never have so many depended on so few. If we really yielded our power, noone would #$%% with us....ever. But as we soldier on, our all powerful union stands there, apparently powerless to see into the future and to head off any of the mess that has plagued the industry. Yet you believe that ALPA is so powerful in Washington.....how is that with the security screening, pension terminations, drug/alcohol testing, age 65, you don't want me to even mention Frank Lorenzo or Stephen Wolf.....do you want me to go on?

No thanks.....

A350

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez:

No, that's not all...we do have issues that need addressing....what we don't need is irresponsible statements about what a union can and cannot do.

Will these issues be better resolved with or without representation? What is the collective consensus?

When ALPA starts to act like a UNION and not an association of carriers who all do what is in their best interest to the possible detriment of the PROFESSION, then I will consider a vote for ALPA.

yet the acronym states Association not union. Where do you get this expectation that ALPA is a union, it the sense that you think it should be?

Unions do not allow outsourcing. Unions do not allow draconian measures like drug and alcohol testing, security screening, and pension terminations on their membership without large consequences. ALPA has allowed all of these things to occur and the industry is 10 times the mess it was in 1980.

But ALPA is a loose federation of unions. The last 10 years have been brutal and these times call for more of a union structure than federation. We agree...

But if ALPA were to become more of a union as you state, what happens in the good times when each company has different growth rates and profit margins for individual CBAs? Are the Delta pilots going to be mad because they can get bigger gains for A320 flying than Jetblue pilots. In other words, in the good times can the DAL pilots cry foul that the national union is not allowing them negotiate to the full potential because it might undermine the JB A320 rate?

I heard someone say the other day.....there are 55,000 airline pilots in this country. There are 350 million people in this country depending on us. Never have so many depended on so few. If we really yielded our power, noone would #$%% with us....ever. But as we soldier on, our all powerful union stands there, apparently powerless to see into the future and to head off any of the mess that has plagued the industry. Yet you believe that ALPA is so powerful in Washington.....how is that with the security screening, pension terminations, drug/alcohol testing, age 65, you don't want me to even mention Frank Lorenzo or Stephen Wolf.....do you want me to go on?

No thanks.....

A350

your description above is more IMHO a characteristic of American capitalism than just ALPA. Putting the blame on solely on ALPA is short sighted. Also, it seems you are willing to spite your nose to save your face in saying that no protection is better than ALPA....


Your reply?

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Yes it does. With a CBA the company is required by law to negotiate in good faith.

Why don't you explain to us exactly what you think "Negotiate in good faith" means for the pilot group? As far as I can tell, you seem to be under the impression you could walk into a car dealership and "negotiate" a car down to a $1. All you need is a "seat at the table" and the dealer to "negotiate in good faith".

It doesn't guarantee an outcome...

Exactly.

 

[clickclickboom]

I actually decided to leave my fractional job when the union started spinning up.. Came to jetblue completely anti union and watched the process unfold over 6 years..I am a YES vote without a doubt

The management employee relationship is as one sided as i have ever seen with changes made by management at any time with no input from the employees here.

If they could replace you tomorrow and save 10% they would do it in a second.. Culture does not exist here except for you bluejuicers that wear your blinders.

No thanks I would rather have an imperfect process in place then none at all.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Rez:

No, that's not all...we do have issues that need addressing....what we don't need is irresponsible statements about what a union can and cannot do.

When ALPA starts to act like a UNION and not an association of carriers who all do what is in their best interest to the possible detriment of the PROFESSION, then I will consider a vote for ALPA.

Unions do not allow outsourcing. Unions do not allow draconian measures like drug and alcohol testing, security screening, and pension terminations on their membership without large consequences. ALPA has allowed all of these things to occur and the industry is 10 times the mess it was in 1980.

I heard someone say the other day.....there are 55,000 airline pilots in this country. There are 350 million people in this country depending on us. Never have so many depended on so few. If we really yielded our power, noone would #$%% with us....ever. But as we soldier on, our all powerful union stands there, apparently powerless to see into the future and to head off any of the mess that has plagued the industry. Yet you believe that ALPA is so powerful in Washington.....how is that with the security screening, pension terminations, drug/alcohol testing, age 65, you don't want me to even mention Frank Lorenzo or Stephen Wolf.....do you want me to go on?

No thanks.....

A350

Ok, what is YOUR answer???? Good ole' Dave is going to take care of us???
No thanks....

 

[B6Busdriver]

Please stick to your (generally) good arguments. Statements like the above are irresponsible and do nothing to further the cause of ALPA here at JB. Our jumpseat policy is much better than most carriers and every OAL pilot I've encountered is truly appreciative of that. They, in turn take care of us when riding OAL.

I never meant to advocate playing games with the jumpseat. The jumpseat and politics do not mix. Again, as I said I do not advocate what some Captains have done over the years but I try to walk a mile in another man's shoes.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Why don't you explain to us exactly what you think "Negotiate in good faith" means for the pilot group? As far as I can tell, you seem to be under the impression you could walk into a car dealership and "negotiate" a car down to a $1. All you need is a "seat at the table" and the dealer to "negotiate in good faith".



Exactly.

So what do you advocate? Continue to do nothing? How much time do you give management?

 

[B6Busdriver]

and a vote for ALPA resolves none of those issues.

What are you selling again?

I'm not selling a darn thing. I have NO interest in any leadership role with ALPA or JetBlue. I have small children and that is where I will continue to dedicate as much time as possible.

I am simply trying to get people to be engaged in their careers. I have seen many a healthy man go out on LTD for cancer, heart issues, etc. It could happen to any of us tomorrow and it is impossible to financially plan with the current level of benefits we are provided.

I am trying to make our pilot group aware that our retirement is at least 35% behind industry standard. We are leaving hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table over a 20+ year career.

Did you see the latest ALPA e-mail on health care? JetBlue pilots are paying 40% of the cost. Here is what the rest of the industry is paying:
Air Tran 26%
Alaska 17%
AA 16.54%
CO 20%
Delta 23%
Fed Ex 12%
Hawaiian 18%
WN less than 20%
UAL 14%
UPS 13%
US Airways 26.6%

What say you Hair On Fire, A350????

Also, our access to health care on LTD is one of the worst benefits in the industry.

You can throw darts at me, call me names, whatever you want but the facts are the facts. It's not pleasant stuff to think or talk about but it is reality. The PVC and the company have had their chance and now it's time to move on. It's just business, don't make it emotional.

All of the anti-ALPA crowd can continue to do nothing and nothing will get done. I'm trying to help further a cause that will hopefuly yield meaningful benefits as our current process fails our pilot group every day.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Why don't you explain to us exactly what you think "Negotiate in good faith" means for the pilot group? As far as I can tell, you seem to be under the impression you could walk into a car dealership and "negotiate" a car down to a $1. All you need is a "seat at the table" and the dealer to "negotiate in good faith".



Exactly.

Again, what is it you advocate? Doing nothing yields nothing. The student council (PVC), try as they might, is ineffective. Please share your vision to improve the benefits of the JetBlue pilot.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Rez:

No, that's not all...we do have issues that need addressing....what we don't need is irresponsible statements about what a union can and cannot do.

When ALPA starts to act like a UNION and not an association of carriers who all do what is in their best interest to the possible detriment of the PROFESSION, then I will consider a vote for ALPA.

Unions do not allow outsourcing. Unions do not allow draconian measures like drug and alcohol testing, security screening, and pension terminations on their membership without large consequences. ALPA has allowed all of these things to occur and the industry is 10 times the mess it was in 1980.

I heard someone say the other day.....there are 55,000 airline pilots in this country. There are 350 million people in this country depending on us. Never have so many depended on so few. If we really yielded our power, noone would #$%% with us....ever. But as we soldier on, our all powerful union stands there, apparently powerless to see into the future and to head off any of the mess that has plagued the industry. Yet you believe that ALPA is so powerful in Washington.....how is that with the security screening, pension terminations, drug/alcohol testing, age 65, you don't want me to even mention Frank Lorenzo or Stephen Wolf.....do you want me to go on?

No thanks.....

A350

Good Lord, in your world the president of ALPA was the one on the grassy knoll the day JFK was shot too!

 

[A350]

Nope....he wasn't on the grassy knoll. But just like the decisions that were made that tragic day, we all have to live with the decisions that the leadership of this UNION have made that have put us in this place in time. Of course there has been external events that have helped the carnage. But IMO, ALPA's structure has been complicit in both the end result and the speed in which it occurred.

I was a dues paying member for over 18 years. I watched the slow motion train wreck that is today's profession. JB is a business. You rail on about how JB is screwing you financially and that they only have their interests at heart. I have news for you. ALPA is a business too. Many ALPA secretaries make more than an RJ Captain.

The guarantee you want is a strong, financially healthy company. It took the SWA guys 30+ years to get where they are today. They did it by sticking together, staying the course, and not caring what the rest of the airlines were doing. The mature contracts of the "elephants" of the past took 50+ years to achieve, and many of those companies no longer exist. Their contracts may never look the same again. ALPA might provide protection for your career, however, there are examples where they did not provide protection for members.

I support many of the initiatives you speak of. Scope, retirement, long term support in the event of a disability. I disagree with you on HOW we get there.

A350

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Nope....he wasn't on the grassy knoll. But just like the decisions that were made that tragic day, we all have to live with the decisions that the leadership of this UNION have made that have put us in this place in time. Of course there has been external events that have helped the carnage. But IMO, ALPA's structure has been complicit in both the end result and the speed in which it occurred.

I was a dues paying member for over 18 years. I watched the slow motion train wreck that is today's profession. JB is a business. You rail on about how JB is screwing you financially and that they only have their interests at heart. I have news for you. ALPA is a business too. Many ALPA secretaries make more than an RJ Captain.

The guarantee you want is a strong, financially healthy company. It took the SWA guys 30+ years to get where they are today. They did it by sticking together, staying the course, and not caring what the rest of the airlines were doing. The mature contracts of the "elephants" of the past took 50+ years to achieve, and many of those companies no longer exist. Their contracts may never look the same again. ALPA might provide protection for your career, however, there are examples where they did not provide protection for members.

I support many of the initiatives you speak of. Scope, retirement, long term support in the event of a disability. I disagree with you on HOW we get there.

A350

And they did this how again? Oh, that's right, 'management' took care of them.....

 

[boomlrd]

But Spirit is ALPA, we went on STRIKE and still got a concessionary contract!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Nope....he wasn't on the grassy knoll. But just like the decisions that were made that tragic day, we all have to live with the decisions that the leadership of this UNION have made that have put us in this place in time. Of course there has been external events that have helped the carnage. But IMO, ALPA's structure has been complicit in both the end result and the speed in which it occurred.

You seem to be seperate yet effected by union leadership and structure....

I was a dues paying member for over 18 years. I watched the slow motion train wreck that is today's profession. JB is a business. You rail on about how JB is screwing you financially and that they only have their interests at heart. I have news for you. ALPA is a business too. Many ALPA secretaries make more than an RJ Captain.

So basically what you are saying is unions and corporations are the same, are obligated by the same law and function for the same purpose....

If so, then you are saying you'd rather roll the dice with management then pay for a "third party service".

The guarantee you want is a strong, financially healthy company. It took the SWA guys 30+ years to get where they are today. They did it by sticking together, staying the course, and not caring what the rest of the airlines were doing. The mature contracts of the "elephants" of the past took 50+ years to achieve, and many of those companies no longer exist. Their contracts may never look the same again. ALPA might provide protection for your career, however, there are examples where they did not provide protection for members.

Are unions supposed to provide ubiquitous artificial market protections ?

I support many of the initiatives you speak of. Scope, retirement, long term support in the event of a disability. I disagree with you on HOW we get there.

A350

So HOW do you suggest the JB pilots get there?

In addition will you reply to my post yesterday at 18:22?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

But Spirit is ALPA, we went on STRIKE and still got a concessionary contract!

Who approved and forced this concessionary contract? Was there a collective mechanism to reject it?