JetBlue Vote....

[B6Busdriver]

But Spirit is ALPA, we went on STRIKE and still got a concessionary contract!

That's debatable depending on who you talk to. How would they have fared with the direct relationship?

 

[Regul8r]

But Spirit is ALPA, we went on STRIKE and still got a concessionary contract!

That's debatable depending on who you talk to.

Just ask any ALPA rep, boomlrd...it was INDUSTRY LEADING!

 

[B6Busdriver]

Nope....he wasn't on the grassy knoll. But just like the decisions that were made that tragic day, we all have to live with the decisions that the leadership of this UNION have made that have put us in this place in time. Of course there has been external events that have helped the carnage. But IMO, ALPA's structure has been complicit in both the end result and the speed in which it occurred.

I was a dues paying member for over 18 years. I watched the slow motion train wreck that is today's profession. JB is a business. You rail on about how JB is screwing you financially and that they only have their interests at heart. I have news for you. ALPA is a business too. Many ALPA secretaries make more than an RJ Captain.

The guarantee you want is a strong, financially healthy company. It took the SWA guys 30+ years to get where they are today. They did it by sticking together, staying the course, and not caring what the rest of the airlines were doing. The mature contracts of the "elephants" of the past took 50+ years to achieve, and many of those companies no longer exist. Their contracts may never look the same again. ALPA might provide protection for your career, however, there are examples where they did not provide protection for members.

I support many of the initiatives you speak of. Scope, retirement, long term support in the event of a disability. I disagree with you on HOW we get there.

A350

First of all thanks for engaging and keeping it civil. The problem with your post is you want your cake and eat it too. You support the initiatives but you provide no mechanism to fix them.

Obviously you are an Airways or TWA guy that has been negatively affected. It's a shame what has happened to the employees of these two airlines. The lesson learned from TWA, US Air and even Southwest is that it takes financial prosperity as well as an effective union for career success. I love the idea of gaining scope, retirement, merger protection, etc without paying 1.95% but it simply can not be done. The company can not change our retirement without adjusting all the work groups. The company told us during the JBPA campaign they could find a workaround for our retirement, well where is it? Why would the company provide meaningful scope without negotiation? Will scope have any meaning unless in our PEA? No, precedent has been established with the seniority dispute for the 190 guys. Who represents you in a merger? Dave? The BOD? All questions to think about.

To say I rail on how JetBlue is screwing me is an unfair statement. I'm not beating my chest or posting personal insults. I am however posting the facts as they are. As I have said I have one emotional issue and that is health care on LTD. The rest is just business IMHO. Why would the company provide industry standard benefits unless they have to, especially to such an apathetic group.

The problem as I see it is that so many of the previous ALPA crowd base their support on emotion. Have I been screwed by ALPA? Well I would say I got screwed by my own MEC repeatedly but not ALPA national. I think ALPA national has failed in the past but after 911 I shudder to think what this industry would like if every carrier was living under the direct relationship.

I think we have a great group of guys and gals at JetBlue. I look forward to union representation and many of these great folks getting involved. We have a great opportunity if we vote in ALPA, we have a chance to shape our union how we want it to look. Instead of wallowing in the past I look to the future and hope we could model our union after great examples like FedEx. Again I say doing nothing and living with status quo will yield just that. It's time to move forward.

 

[Lake Alice]

You can argue the merits of the CBA versus the PEA regarding merger/acquisitions all day long and, honestly, no one knows how the PEA will be interpreted until said transactional event occurs. Jetblue has its opinion and the pilot group has it's own. The 3A issue has made most of us tremendously skeptical as to how leadership would handle a merger and hence the push for ALPA. But back to my original point. You can argue the merits of both angles for many issues but facts are facts regarding retirement and benefits. Jetblue pilots cannot get an industry standard retirement without a CBA and because of Jetblues "culture" we cannot change our health benefits. Rob Maruster has stated in the monthly conference calls, which also have transcripts, there are work a rounds for all these issues but "they are too expensive". In most of our opinons this leaves no other option. ALPA at Jetblue is not ALPA at United. We are not out to kill the company. All we are after is a fair retirement and a fair benefits package. Jetblue on its own is not currently willing to provide the pilots with these benefits.

 

[mozzer]

You can argue the merits of the CBA versus the PEA regarding merger/acquisitions all day long and, honestly, no one knows how the PEA will be interpreted until said transactional event occurs. Jetblue has its opinion and the pilot group has it's own. The 3A issue has made most of us tremendously skeptical as to how leadership would handle a merger and hence the push for ALPA. But back to my original point. You can argue the merits of both angles for many issues but facts are facts regarding retirement and benefits. Jetblue pilots cannot get an industry standard retirement without a CBA and because of Jetblues "culture" we cannot change our health benefits. Rob Maruster has stated in the monthly conference calls, which also have transcripts, there are work a rounds for all these issues but "they are too expensive". In most of our opinons this leaves no other option. ALPA at Jetblue is not ALPA at United. We are not out to kill the company. All we are after is a fair retirement and a fair benefits package. Jetblue on its own is not currently willing to provide the pilots with these benefits.

Well said. Card sent.

 

[pilotyip]

All we are after is a fair retirement and a fair benefits package. Jetblue on its own is not currently willing to provide the pilots with these benefits.

Who determines fair, the UAW thought they were being fair with the big three, starting wages now $14/hr as opposed to $28/hr when fairness was the goal.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Who determines fair, the UAW thought they were being fair with the big three, starting wages now $14/hr as opposed to $28/hr when fairness was the goal.

Fair is at least industry standard and we are at 30% behind.

 

[Lake Alice]

That's a good question and industry standard is the obvious answer. Aside from that each pilot group makes up it's own mind what they feel is important. As Jetblue pilots we are not asking for a United contract. We are asking for benefits that better protect our pilots. Some issues considered industry standard are not in the best interest of our pilot group while others are. I see the intent of your UAW comparison however it's not apples to apples. As Jetblue pilots we actually provide a very good service whereas the UAW was the worst in every measurable category. Maybe there is some bias there but should you not be rewarded for a good job? And however subjective that reward may be it is open to negotiation, an ability we do not have. All we have is a "direct relationship".

 

[boomlrd]

Who determines fair, the UAW thought they were being fair with the big three, starting wages now $14/hr as opposed to $28/hr when fairness was the goal.

You think you guys are 30% behind, Spirit is way further behind! We are the only union to ever return to work from a STRIKE without ratifying a TA, much less even seeing the concessionary contract, thanks SPAMEC!

 

[pilotyip]

Fair is at least industry standard and we are at 30% behind.

What if JB can not match industry std and remain profitable? Here is how the UAW does it; they reach a deal with a single company, then go to the next company and say match it or you will be shutdown and all the new cars being sold will be built someplace else, then they go to the next company and repeat. When the auto companies where rolling in money it was a good deal for all. But over the last 30 years it has eliminated 70% of the union jobs, gave great raise to non-union companies, and now it is concession time. Now the Airlines could follow the same path as the UAW and it would be great for 30% of those who still had jobs. This is also great for the non-ALPA airlines that would fly all the passengers when the ALPA pilots were on strike. So you on stike to get what you want. Or go the UAL way and delay flights?

 

[clickclickboom]

That is an excellent point the problem is that we always seem to report a modest yet small profit but if you review our presentations and reports you will see that for example a 25 million profit is reported yet 250,000,000 in debt will be repaid. That may seem great but when you really dive into the filings you realize that $75 to $100,000,000 was paid for by cash. You then look at our our cash on hand take into consideration interest gains and realize that we didnt make 25mil but over 125mil..

the bottom line is that we are very very profitable and literally printing money. the problem that many have here is that this success is on the backs of the employees. One such example is shown above with the 40% cost being transferred to the employees. Another is the absolute downright lie from ther legal dept that there was a retirement shortfall workaround when in fact there was none, another is that fact that management changes our peerset with no input to support a no " de minimis payraise " for last year..

 

[B6Busdriver]

What if JB can not match industry std and remain profitable? Here is how the UAW does it; they reach a deal with a single company, then go to the next company and say match it or you will be shutdown and all the new cars being sold will be built someplace else, then they go to the next company and repeat. When the auto companies where rolling in money it was a good deal for all. But over the last 30 years it has eliminated 70% of the union jobs, gave great raise to non-union companies, and now it is concession time. Now the Airlines could follow the same path as the UAW and it would be great for 30% of those who still had jobs. This is also great for the non-ALPA airlines that would fly all the passengers when the ALPA pilots were on strike. So you on stike to get what you want. Or go the UAL way and delay flights?

What if you would mind your own business? What if you would quit hijacking threads for an airline you do not even work for? What a wonderful world it would be..... Please YIP, go chase your wife around or find a hobby. I'm trying to have discourse with my fellow B6 pilots.

 

[pilotyip]

What if you would mind your own business? What if you would quit hijacking threads for an airline you do not even work for? What a wonderful world it would be..... Please YIP, go chase your wife around or find a hobby. I'm trying to have discourse with my fellow B6 pilots.

This a public forum as far as I know. If you private business you use a private site. I am a former airline union members at two airlines that are now out of business, the public at this site need t ohear bot hsides. Unions are destroying the state and local gov't throughout this country. I have a lot of friends at JB, I worried about there future of a USAirways type union is impossed upon the uniformed.

 

[Lake Alice]

This a public forum as far as I know. If you private business you use a private site. I am a former airline union members at two airlines that are now out of business, the public at this site need t ohear bot hsides. Unions are destroying the state and local gov't throughout this country. I have a lot of friends at JB, I worried about there future of a USAirways type union is impossed upon the uniformed.

Airlines go out of business due to poor leadership, poor planning and poor management. No union in the aviation industry has ever FORCED an airline out of business. I appreciate your rhetoric but it is misguided and clearly incorrect.

 

[pilotyip]

Airlines go out of business due to poor leadership, poor planning and poor management. No union in the aviation industry has ever FORCED an airline out of business. I appreciate your rhetoric but it is misguided and clearly incorrect.

understand, but there has to be two sides

 

[Blue Dude]

What if JB can not match industry std and remain profitable? Here is how the UAW does it; they reach a deal with a single company, then go to the next company and say match it or you will be shutdown and all the new cars being sold will be built someplace else, then they go to the next company and repeat. When the auto companies where rolling in money it was a good deal for all. But over the last 30 years it has eliminated 70% of the union jobs, gave great raise to non-union companies, and now it is concession time. Now the Airlines could follow the same path as the UAW and it would be great for 30% of those who still had jobs. This is also great for the non-ALPA airlines that would fly all the passengers when the ALPA pilots were on strike. So you on stike to get what you want. Or go the UAL way and delay flights?

No offense, but you don't have the first idea what you're talking about. Airlines operate under the RLA, not the NLRA, as the car industry does. The situation isn't remotely similar. Sure, there may be two sides, but this isn't one of them.

 

[pilotyip]

No offense, but you don't have the first idea what you're talking about. Airlines operate under the RLA, not the NLRA, as the car industry does. The situation isn't remotely similar. Sure, there may be two sides, but this isn't one of them.

so airlines don't go on strike and drive their customers into other airline tubes? But what about when unions price themselves out of the market, and non-union companies such Toyota, JetBlue, etc step in and offer the consumers a similar product at a lower price. Why do union members support non-union places of work, i.e. all the UAW Buy American stickers on the bumpers of the cars parked in the Wal-Mart parking lot? If Bob King, follows was the old tactics of the UAW, he will most likely destroy the remainder of the US auto industry. But if he follows the tactic of the Germans unions, where raises in pay in benefits are more than offset by increases in productivity, he may truly become an American hero. No more job bank, no more 76 job classifications. In the end the consumer of a product determines the wages paid to the employees. BTW I do not shop at Wal-Mart I shop a union store down the street called Meijer's, why because they are a local business.

 

[A350]

I think the notion that no union has ever forced an airline out of business is a truthful statement. But there is much more to every story.

Unions were put on this earth to protect their membership and their pay. However, unions are also businesses. Strength in numbers and numbers mean more dues. More members, more pay, more dues.

Labor used to be the largest expense at an airline. Now it is fuel with labor being a close second. Management can control the cost of labor to an extent, they have no control over the cost of fuel. Pilots at airlines do not act in a vacuum. Once the big money hits the pilot group, everyone else wants a piece of the pie and before long, the costs of the airline are not competitive. That is when airlines start to have financial problems and the whole cycle starts to come full circle. Add a national tragedy or recession and you have a recipe for stagnation, pay and benefit cuts, and possibly bankruptcy.

Don't know where anyone gets these numbers, but I don't think the IRS would allow JB to make $100 million and just pay debt without paying taxes on the profit. Where did you see numbers like that?

A350

 

[pilotyip]

I think the notion that no union has ever forced an airline out of business is a truthful statement. But there is much more to every story.

Unions were put on this earth to protect their membership and their pay. However, unions are also businesses. Strength in numbers and numbers mean more dues. More members, more pay, more dues.

Labor used to be the largest expense at an airline. Now it is fuel with labor being a close second. Management can control the cost of labor to an extent, they have no control over the cost of fuel. Pilots at airlines do not act in a vacuum. Once the big money hits the pilot group, everyone else wants a piece of the pie and before long, the costs of the airline are not competitive. That is when airlines start to have financial problems and the whole cycle starts to come full circle. Add a national tragedy or recession and you have a recipe for stagnation, pay and benefit cuts, and possibly bankruptcy.

Don't know where anyone gets these numbers, but I don't think the IRS would allow JB to make $100 million and just pay debt without paying taxes on the profit. Where did you see numbers like that?

A350

This is a great post on the reality of the airline industry. It seems that pilots think that if they get more money, everyone else will be happy without a raise. That is not the case; a raise for pilots results in rasies for everyone else, pushing the bottom line of the airline. They have to raise prices and allow new airlines like JB, Virgin and whatever name to step in and steal passengers, putting further pressure on the new union air carrier. Plus the union has to keep promising more in order to continue collecting dues. Their demands often become like sharks in a feeding frenzy. Look at the 2000 UAL contract that forced on to management, $350K top pay for a CA, the airline could not afford that. This was forced upon them at the same time that he first class passenger was going away. That was not today's first class upgrade guy, but the guy who paid $2000 for a trip ORD-LAX. It became the perfect storm with 9-11 that resulted in BK two years later.

 

[Lake Alice]

You are both solely focused on pay which in the case of Jetblue, and the theme of this thread, is not one of the top issues. In our case we are seeking a say. We have a Flight Scheduling Manual which the company changes at will. From work rules to scheduling to days off on reserve. Our PEA, Pilot Employment Agreement, do not cover us in the event of a merger or acquisition. Jetblue can buy or be bought by another company and never merge the operations. If foreign ownership is approved we can be purchased by a foreign carrier and operated as a feeder only.
Anyone who says unions are great blah blah blah is full of sh!t. But they are necessary in our industry.
Lets talk about safety for a sec as well. We recently learned from the captain of flight 292(sideways nosewheel guy) he was shut out from the investigation. He gave a statement and was never privy to any information until the decision was officially rendered 3 years later. He was never told whether certificate action was possible or not. For 3 years Jetblue left him in limbo.
Let talk about retirement or benefits. Our PEA's do not incorporate our benefits. If at anytime Jetblue decided to end 401K contributions we have no say. As has been happening for 7 or 8 years Jetblue is changing our insurance benefit each year without our input.
I can go on and on. The truth of the matter is union pilots have a say. What they do with that say is entirely up to them but at Jetblue we have no say and rest assured Jetblue is not taking care of us. Those of us on the organizing committee believe Jetblue pilots have enough union experience to avoid many of the mistakes our peers have repeatedly made in the past.

 

[Flyby1206]

Unions have created an industry in which we need unions. We do not have any job portability as Airline Pilots. If you are an $80k/yr B6 FO who feels poorly treated then you dont have any realistic options for alternate companies making a comparable wage. Your best bet is starting at the bottom of another carrier for foodstamp wages in hopes that the company will be in business long enough for you to reach the top of the seniority/longevity payscale.

If pilots could take their experience, skills, compensation from airline to airline (as exists in the "real world") you could leave your $80k/yr B6 FO job and go be an $95k/yr DAL FO without any real pain. This situation would put the burden on the companies to create and maintain a positive/happy work environment because the pilots would truly be a commodity instead of expendable as we are today. With the burden for good pay/QOL/working condition resting on the company's shoulder, there really isnt a big need for unions.

The company doesnt want that burden, so they deal with unions. The unions create a negotiated framework of how poorly we as pilots can be treated. You can be Junior Manned twice per month, you must start 1st yr pay at $40/hr, you can only get paid an additional 20% for Overtime pay, etc etc.

And as previously stated, Unions are a big business. Their first priority is the success of the union by the revenue it generates. They are indirectly concerned with the well being of the individual pilot, but directly concerned with the continuation of a "need" for the union. Nasty fights with mgmt, rumors, marginal work rules, fractional contractual changes are all part of that charade.

I dont know what the answer to your union vote should be, but I do wish the best of luck to all who are making that decision.

 

[pilotyip]

Anyone who says unions are great blah blah blah is full of sh!t.

thank that is what I ahve saying, people should hear both sides if you are on a public form

 

[clickclickboom]

A350 why cant we pay debt down? Are you saying that every dollar that comes in is taxed and is then made available for corporate use and at the end of the quarter anything left over is profit?

There are tax, writeoffs, depreciation and the list of accounting 101 goes on. I wasnt providing exact numbers I was providing a theoretical example.

Instead of questioning others maybe you should go read our filings and educate yourself..?

It is great debt is being paid down, It is great we are spending 600,000,000 million to outfit continental with live tv even though the credit card swipe rate is 30% less than originally projected during the feasability study to determine our ROI.. ( sarcasm)

What is not great is when this employee group has been asking for industry average EVERYTHING while performing well above wait wait let me rephrase absolute industry leading productivity while being lied to and taken advantage of by management.

If the juicers dont see it then they are just downright buffoons. Each and every pilot here is losing tens of thousands of dollars per year because of the DIRECT actions of our management team..

God I could write a report worthy of congress just off the top of my head.

Todays example? We pay over 40% of our benefit cost.. The nearest airline is Airways at 26% and the industry average is around 18-20%. This is on top of std and ltd benefits that are subpar in every category. Take that extra $30 or $40 everytime you get care multiply it by your family members and project it out to 30 years and account for opportunity cost/lost income/lost compounding etc and that one single example could easily mean $200,000 to $400k or more out of your potential retirement.

Even if we vote in a union we are still a management team wet dream.. We are sitting here asking to be industry leading and negotiating for hopes of indsutry average..

 

[Lake Alice]

thank that is what I ahve saying, people should hear both sides if you are on a public form

In the end Unions are a necessary evil.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

ALPA arrives at Jetblue. In 2 years an industry leading concessionary contract is agreed to that is good for 5 years. Meanwhile, as the airline industry seeks qualified pilots to replace age 65 retirees and the pipeline of 1500 hour new-hires dries up-- pay and benefits at all other airlines will increase (basic supply/demand). But we here at JBLU will be stuck in our concessionary contract for up to 12 years (2 years for first contract + 5 year contract + 5 years Airtran-like negotiation) while the rest of the pilots in the industry prosper... and when we get our new contract to make up for the shortfalls of our first contract, I'll be near retirement...

We go to the negotiating table with everything we have now. The process is a give/take one. Better retirement? Better medical? Sure, what are you willing to give up for it? That is why most First Contracts are concessionary. BTW, it better at least have a 2-3% increase in pay to cover our dues or right out of the gates-- you guessed it, concessionary...

Our management have already come out-a-blazing with how they love a third-party process. You absolutely think the company will give you everything you want?

Reality check here-- YOU BETTER START LOOKING CAREFULLY AT WHAT YOU'RE WILLING TO GIVE UP IN ORDER TO GET WHAT YOU WANT...

 

[pilotyip]

ALPA arrives at Jetblue. In 2 years an industry leading concessionary contract is agreed to that is good for 5 years. Meanwhile, as the airline industry seeks qualified pilots to replace age 65 retirees and the pipeline of 1500 hour new-hires dries up-- pay and benefits at all other airlines will increase (basic supply/demand). But we here at JBLU will be stuck in our concessionary contract for up to 12 years (2 years for first contract + 5 year contract + 5 years Airtran-like negotiation) while the rest of the pilots in the industry prosper... and when we get our new contract to make up for the shortfalls of our first contract, I'll be near retirement...

We go to the negotiating table with everything we have now. The process is a give/take one. Better retirement? Better medical? Sure, what are you willing to give up for it? That is why most First Contracts are concessionary. BTW, it better at least have a 2-3% increase in pay to cover our dues or right out of the gates-- you guessed it, concessionary...

Our management have already come out-a-blazing with how they love a third-party process. You absolutely think the company will give you everything you want?

Reality check here-- YOU BETTER START LOOKING CAREFULLY AT WHAT YOU'RE WILLING TO GIVE UP IN ORDER TO GET WHAT YOU WANT...

Another dose of reality in a sea of unbridled and unlimited promises of the future pilot job perfection

In the end Unions are a necessary evil.

Trouble is the necessity often turns evil. The union activists that move to the forefront of union leadership continue to sell the promises of increased pay, days off and benefits in order justify the union’s existence and why the pilots are paying dues. The defiant battle cry of we will show them who is boss rings through the union halls in defiance of the reality of the airline marketplace.

 

[Dizel8]

BB,

All the ones I have seen, have vastly improved the pay, benefits and work rules. I guess you want your benefits, retirement tied to a new hire ramper? Enjoy it! I for one will try for a bit better!

 

[B6Busdriver]

ALPA arrives at Jetblue. In 2 years an industry leading concessionary contract is agreed to that is good for 5 years. Meanwhile, as the airline industry seeks qualified pilots to replace age 65 retirees and the pipeline of 1500 hour new-hires dries up-- pay and benefits at all other airlines will increase (basic supply/demand). But we here at JBLU will be stuck in our concessionary contract for up to 12 years (2 years for first contract + 5 year contract + 5 years Airtran-like negotiation) while the rest of the pilots in the industry prosper... and when we get our new contract to make up for the shortfalls of our first contract, I'll be near retirement...

We go to the negotiating table with everything we have now. The process is a give/take one. Better retirement? Better medical? Sure, what are you willing to give up for it? That is why most First Contracts are concessionary. BTW, it better at least have a 2-3% increase in pay to cover our dues or right out of the gates-- you guessed it, concessionary...

Our management have already come out-a-blazing with how they love a third-party process. You absolutely think the company will give you everything you want?

Reality check here-- YOU BETTER START LOOKING CAREFULLY AT WHAT YOU'RE WILLING TO GIVE UP IN ORDER TO GET WHAT YOU WANT...

I guess in your world it is best to do nothing. It's time to go down a different road and at least have a seat at the table. ALL THIS GROUP HAS EVER ASKED FOR IS INDUSTRY AVERAGE. Average has been determined by the PCRB report yet we can't even get that. We can't even get access to the health care when on LTD. The new benefit enhancement for health care on LTD is crap. Once again the company has taken the lowest benefit and latched on to it.

 

[pilotyip]

I guess in your world it is best to do nothing. It's time to go down a different road and at least have a seat at the table. ALL THIS GROUP HAS EVER ASKED FOR IS INDUSTRY AVERAGE. Average has been determined by the PCRB report yet we can't even get that. We can't even get access to the health care when on LTD. The new benefit enhancement for health care on LTD is crap. Once again the company has taken the lowest benefit and latched on to it.

what about the post that JB 320 drivers are paid 30% more than 320 pilots at USAir? How does one determine industry average? Having been there done that, I am always concerned about the unintended consequences.

 

[Lake Alice]

BB,

We have been negotiating since 2005. We are already 5 years into a negotiating process with no end in sight. Our benefits have gotten worse. Our retirement has not changed. Our work rules have gotten worse. We have no scope. We have no merger protection. I can go on and on.

And for everything we do have not one piece of it is contained in our pilot employment agreements therefore at anytime the company may decide to discontinue these benefits at will.

I understand people are not happy with unions but like most issues in life it's what you make of it. At Jetblue we have no rights, no security and a limited future.