Jetblue, VA ansd Skywest benefit from ALPA.......again...

[OurMoney1]

PCL, you and Rez really need to give this web board thing a break. You are not helping the situation at all. I'd personally like to have folks involved excpet I want guys like JoeMerchant involved too. We have enough of your type view point and need some moderating influences as well.

So far as your assumption of far right morons.. I am one of them and I am part of ALPA and doing my part. The majority of the pilot population is made up of far right morons like myself. Thankfully, your type makes up a small but unfortunately vocal part of the population that seeks to only better itself over the short term while ignoring market forces. You and Rez pretend to operate inside a vacuum with no external pressures being applied. YOur great imperial government is not the answer as the bigger it becomes, the greater a burden it becomes to the company. The share holders need to realize investments on their money. Without this possibility, these greedy people will take their money else where whereas they can make money on their investments. This takes away from the pay and benefits we could have in this business. Your way is not the answer. Neither is total unfettered free markets either but your method has been tried time again through out history only to fail. You're simply to proud to admit you may be over reaching.

Really though, you and Rez need to scram and let the grown ups make informed choices. As much as you don't believe it, it ALPA members are given all sides of the story, they can generally make good choices which flies in the face of your indoctrination at Herndon. Because you're a hardliner, fellow pilots won't tell you this sort of stuff because they fear being labeled. However, an overwhelming number of pilots react much more favorably when I give all the information I possibly can without violating anything and generally get much less emotion and well thought out answers from guys. Give it break here. You aren't doing ALPA any favor with your venom, hate and name calling.

Excellent..

Still not an ALPA fan....but very well said.

Now will they hear you.

 

[Hamburger]

Couplea days of shutdown won't cause anyone to liquidate, especially if everyone else is in the same boat. It would get attention.

You are right about most not participating, that's the balls issue.

Doesn't matter who's on the other side of the table. If we sack up, we're in the driver seat. They gonna be able to get 50,000 Scabs trained and online or do we have the power?
PATCO? I've never signed a no-strike agreement and I don't work for the Government. They can't fire me.

Political Know-How brought us Age 65 against the will of the Membership. Great Blueprint to Follow.

 

[PCL_128]

You should read the "Majors" boards here on FI. Looks like most of those "professionals" over there are pre-judging the NW pilots.

Anyone on the majors board that is pre-judging is just as unprofessional. I don't care what uniform they wear or what's written on the side of their airplane.

Couplea days of shutdown won't cause anyone to liquidate, especially if everyone else is in the same boat. It would get attention.

You obviously aren't familiar with how bad of shape USAirways was in in those final days before the pension termination. A few days of shutdown would have been the end. But like I said, very few would have walked, because most pilots aren't fond of flagrantly breaking the law.

Doesn't matter who's on the other side of the table. If we sack up, we're in the driver seat. They gonna be able to get 50,000 Scabs trained and online or do we have the power?

You don't need 50,000 scabs, because very few will walk. Most pilots won't willfully break the law, nor should they.

PATCO? I've never signed a no-strike agreement and I don't work for the Government. They can't fire me.

You don't have to sign a no-strike agreement, because it's part of the statute called the RLA. Wildcat strikes are illegal, my friend. You have no rights to your job if you strike outside of the confines of the RLA process. The company will terminate you, and the government will cheer them on.

Political Know-How brought us Age 65 against the will of the Membership. Great Blueprint to Follow.

The will of the membership was not clear, because the membership was apathetic. Want to blame someone for Age 65? Look in the mirror.

 

[ualdriver]

Couplea days of shutdown won't cause anyone to liquidate, especially if everyone else is in the same boat. It would get attention.

You are right about most not participating, that's the balls issue.

Doesn't matter who's on the other side of the table. If we sack up, we're in the driver seat. They gonna be able to get 50,000 Scabs trained and online or do we have the power?
PATCO? I've never signed a no-strike agreement and I don't work for the Government. They can't fire me.

Political Know-How brought us Age 65 against the will of the Membership. Great Blueprint to Follow.

The nationwide walk-out thing is pie in the sky. Makes for nice forum tough talk, though.

How did the sick out over at American back in '99 work out for them? (never mind a complete walk out) How much did it cost their pilots? If you don't know the answers to those two questions, let me know and I'll post some interesting quotations from Judge Kendall. Needless to say, I think if 50K pilots walked out, we'd be fined into oblivion.

So yeah, you didn't sign a "no strike" agreement, however you are governed by the RLA and the subsequent court orders that will follow when found in violation of the Act.

 

[ualdriver]

Apparently you don't have many pilot friends and you're not talking to your jumpseaters. There are more contract violations at union carriers then there ever are at Skywest. So much for these enforceable contracts.

Actually, let's think about this another way. Maybe there are NUMEROUS contract violations at Skywest, but because you don't have a union or any real teeth to challenge said violations, you never hear of them because you can't do anything about it. Maybe Skywest pilots get screwed all the time but the pilots know fighting without an enforceable contract is a lost cause so they just "give up" and you hear nothing about it. Further, maybe you hear of the numerous contract violations at union carriers because there IS a mechanism in place to fix them, the union tries to fight them (admittedly they're not always successful), and therefore those violations come to light and are known about.

 

[PCL_128]

There are more contract violations at union carriers then there ever are at Skywest. So much for these enforceable contracts.

You can't violate a contract where none exists.

 

[ualdriver]

Rez is amusing, clueless, and naive.

Try telling the several thousand retiree(s) who lost their pensions that ALPA is the answer. Their inaction set new norms for how management justifies their actions, changing the industry forever. The largest airline union in the nation sacrificed pensions, the last valuable pillar that made this job worth having. And today companies like AA, UPS, Fed Ex, cautiously negotiate fearing they will be the next target of fund raiders. My hats off to my peers at LCC and DAL. ALPA gave your retirement to the wolves.

Yep....Rez you can have ALPA. Its an organization that should serve as the benchmark of how not to conduct union business.

You're going to have to explain how "ALPA" (how are you defining ALPA in these sentences National or local?) was responsible for the loss of our pensions. In your own words, you describe the pensions as the "last valuable pillar that made this job worth having." So you're saying that "ALPA" took this valuable form of compensation, and what, just gave it away? Really?

Since I'm a United guy and I'm pretty familiar with how the loss of our pension went down, feel free to tell me how "ALPA" gave away the pensions here. And let's not talk in superlatives, let's talk real numbers. I want YOU to tell me and all of us on this forum specifically what happened to the pensions here at UAL so that you can illustrate your points. Tell me how underfunded our pensions became, HOW they became underfunded, how much money was needed to fund them to the minimum level required by law, WHERE the money to fill that hole would come from, and how ALPA knew the money was there to fix the pensions, but took positive, proactive steps to prevent that money from refunding our pension because they wanted to see them gone. I want you to use real numbers, dates, and events.

Feel free to do that for ANY airline, for that matter. If what you're saying is true, it should be extremely easy to prove. If you can't provide that factual, verifiable information, I suggest you find something else to bash ALPA about, because I suspect you're not going to do very well on this particular topic.

 

[Erlanger]

Actually, let's think about this another way. Maybe there are NUMEROUS contract violations at Skywest, but because you don't have a union or any real teeth to challenge said violations, you never hear of them because you can't do anything about it. Maybe Skywest pilots get screwed all the time but the pilots know fighting without an enforceable contract is a lost cause so they just "give up" and you hear nothing about it. Further, maybe you hear of the numerous contract violations at union carriers because there IS a mechanism in place to fix them, the union tries to fight them (admittedly they're not always successful), and therefore those violations come to light and are known about.

Nice spin. The average ALPA pilot grievance is resolved in 1 year. A Skywest grievance is resolved in 45 to 60 days. Do you know what the average Skywest and ALPA pilot gets afterwards? It's 1 hour of pay.

 

[Erlanger]

You can't violate a contract where none exists.

You guys just like to keep repeating this nonsense. The Skywest contract is an enforceable contract. It would stand up in court. The only difference is that a typical Skywest pilot or SAPA wouldn't have the money to sue the company but then again ALPA tends to pick and choose what it wants to fight.

I talked to a guy on the UAL MEC once and asked him when he was telling me about the issues they have with management as to why they don't sue and he said, oh, it would cost us 6 figures and take 5 years in court. What good is an ALPA contract and your dues if they won't fight at any cost and send a clear message to the company?

 

[ualdriver]

Nice spin. The average ALPA pilot grievance is resolved in 1 year. A Skywest grievance is resolved in 45 to 60 days. Do you know what the average Skywest and ALPA pilot gets afterwards? It's 1 hour of pay.

You're going to have to tell me the source of your information. I know the local grievance guy reasonably well, and I also follow along at my Union pretty well, and I'm not aware of any metric that describes an "average" award. I also haven't heard of a "1 hour of pay" average award, either, especially when an award may not even involve "hours of pay." So again, what's the source of that ALPA data?

Further, your statements go back to my original point. Even if a Skywest grievance is resolved in 45 to 60 days, who cares if most grievances never see the light of day in the first place because you have no enforceable contract? How many pilots at Skywest just "suck it up" when they get screwed because the mechanism in place is inadequate? So even if your data is true (which I doubt), who cares if those FEW grievances are settled more quickly then ALL the ones settled at a union carrier?

And I'm not picking on Skywest in particular, but that's the example being thrown around here.

 

[OurMoney1]

You're going to have to explain how "ALPA" (how are you defining ALPA in these sentences National or local?) was responsible for the loss of our pensions. In your own words, you describe the pensions as the "last valuable pillar that made this job worth having." So you're saying that "ALPA" took this valuable form of compensation, and what, just gave it away? Really?

Since I'm a United guy and I'm pretty familiar with how the loss of our pension went down, feel free to tell me how "ALPA" gave away the pensions here. And let's not talk in superlatives, let's talk real numbers. I want YOU to tell me and all of us on this forum specifically what happened to the pensions here at UAL so that you can illustrate your points. Tell me how underfunded our pensions became, HOW they became underfunded, how much money was needed to fund them to the minimum level required by law, WHERE the money to fill that hole would come from, and how ALPA knew the money was there to fix the pensions, but took positive, proactive steps to prevent that money from refunding our pension because they wanted to see them gone. I want you to use real numbers, dates, and events.

Feel free to do that for ANY airline, for that matter. If what you're saying is true, it should be extremely easy to prove. If you can't provide that factual, verifiable information, I suggest you find something else to bash ALPA about, because I suspect you're not going to do very well on this particular topic.

I'm not discussing the situation at UAL. The situation at USAir started the dominoes falling. ALPA national over saw the shafting of the USAir pilot group, beyond that your free too do the research necessary to answer your questions.

I'm done...still not an ALPA fan.

 

[ualdriver]

I'm not discussing the situation at UAL. The situation at USAir started the dominoes falling. ALPA national over saw the shafting of the USAir pilot group, beyond that your free too do the research necessary to answer your questions.

I'm done...still not an ALPA fan.

I don't care if you're an ALPA fan or not, but you shouldn't post lies or false implications either. I don't see how US Air was a domino that caused our pension to fail. If my memory serves, ours failed (actually was seized by the PBGC on Dec 31, 2004) just after US Air's. Their failure had nothing to do with ours, and nothing really to do with ALPA National. I guess if you wanted to stretch an argument, you could say that ALPA National failed to secure legislation on Capitol Hill that could helped EVERYONE with their required pension funding level, but it's kind of weak argument IMO, especially considering the political "tilt" that existed at the time. I think it was pretty apparent at the time that no one in Washington was interested in helping US Air or United save their pensions.

Regardless of your belief of ALPA's involvement, the pensions became underfunded, and there are minimum levels of funding that MUST be maintained or the pension gets taken over. It doesn't matter if ALPA National wants the pensions to go away or not. Simply put, they're either funded properly, taken over by the government to prevent further losses, or frozen.

 

[PCL_128]

You guys just like to keep repeating this nonsense. The Skywest contract is an enforceable contract. It would stand up in court.

Wow, you really are delusional. There is no such thing as a SkyWest contract. You are at-will employees that have no rights to any contract whatsoever. The only rights you have are what are provided by federal and state statute, such as protection from discrimination, harassment, disparity of treatment, etc... Any of the terms in your employee handbook may be changed by the company on a whim, and no court would agree to hear any case that you brought regarding it, because you have contractual rights. Welcome to reality.

I talked to a guy on the UAL MEC once and asked him when he was telling me about the issues they have with management as to why they don't sue and he said, oh, it would cost us 6 figures and take 5 years in court. What good is an ALPA contract and your dues if they won't fight at any cost and send a clear message to the company?

You are grossly misinformed. The reason that unions don't sue airlines is because the courts don't agree to hear the cases, because the RLA requires that they be remanded to the System Board (grievance process). This usually works in our favor, actually, because a grievance can usually be resolved in less than a year, but a court battle would usually take 5+ years to resolve. The courts are not your friend.

 

[Erlanger]

Wow, you really are delusional. There is no such thing as a SkyWest contract. You are at-will employees that have no rights to any contract whatsoever. The only rights you have are what are provided by federal and state statute, such as protection from discrimination, harassment, disparity of treatment, etc... Any of the terms in your employee handbook may be changed by the company on a whim, and no court would agree to hear any case that you brought regarding it, because you have contractual rights. Welcome to reality.

Apparently you don't know what "at-will" employment really means. We've had acouple of pilots get fired over the last couple of years and guess what? The courts ruled in their favor and they were reinstated with back pay and their senority. And the reasons they were fired weren't because of discrimination, harassment, disparity of treatment, etc as you state above. You guys love to throw around this "at-will" employment nonsense around and you don't even know what it means and how it pertains to ones employment.

Will ALPA protect 100% of it's pilots? The answer is no. There is two cases, I believe they were Pinnacle or maybe Mesaba but they were fired from their airlines and ALPA wouldn't defend them and the pilots flipped the bill for their own lawyers and won and got their jobs back. No thanks to ALPA. I'm sure some of you know the cases I'm talking about. If you have additional info about these two cases please post what you know on here please. Oh, and if I remember correctly, ALPA later reinbursed some of their expenses but not before making the pilots sign away that they wouldn't talk about ALPA's role which was zippo.

BTW, how many pilots get furloughed at union carriers? Our "contract" hasn't furloughed a single pilot ever.

 

[PCL_128]

Apparently you don't know what "at-will" employment really means. We've had acouple of pilots get fired over the last couple of years and guess what? The courts ruled in their favor and they were reinstated with back pay and their senority. And the reasons they were fired weren't because of discrimination, harassment, disparity of treatment, etc as you state above. You guys love to throw around this "at-will" employment nonsense around and you don't even know what it means and how it pertains to ones employment.

I'm quite familiar with what at-will employment means. You may want to brush up on it a bit, because you're obviously not very knowledgeable. Wrongful termination suits can certainly be successful if an employee is terminated contrary to what an established employee handbook says, because that would be considered disparity of treatment or discriminatory practice. That doesn't mean that the terms of an employee handbook or enforceable, however. If your employee handbook states that you'll receive at least 12 days off, for example, the company can change that tomorrow without any prior notice, and you'll have no recourse. In addition, at-will employees can be terminated at any time for any reason as long as discriminatory practice is not involved.

Will ALPA protect 100% of it's pilots? The answer is no. There is two cases, I believe they were Pinnacle or maybe Mesaba but they were fired from their airlines and ALPA wouldn't defend them and the pilots flipped the bill for their own lawyers and won and got their jobs back. No thanks to ALPA. I'm sure some of you know the cases I'm talking about. If you have additional info about these two cases please post what you know on here please. Oh, and if I remember correctly, ALPA later reinbursed some of their expenses but not before making the pilots sign away that they wouldn't talk about ALPA's role which was zippo.

Again, you are misinformed.

BTW, how many pilots get furloughed at union carriers? Our "contract" hasn't furloughed a single pilot ever.

How many pilots have been furloughed from SWA, the most heavily-unionized airline in history? ZERO! Business models determine furloughs, not unions.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The Colgan BUF accident is classic example of the need for representation. Colgan had recently joined ALPA just prior to the crash. With ALPA directly representing Colgan, the Colgan pilots had access to govt. Sure ALPA would have been involved somewhat, but since ALPA directly represented Colgan, ALPA was a "front man" for Colgan during the NTSB hearings, Congressional hearings and MSM media interviews.


Consider if JB, VA or OO pilots had an accident like Colgan. Who would represent the pilot group? Would the pilots have access to govt like the Colgan pilots? Access to the NTSB, Congress, FAA, DOT, and the White House?


Removing yourselves from the process and putting your fate into the hands of those who do not have a concern for you is.......... reckless.....

 

[Erlanger]

I'm quite familiar with what at-will employment means. You may want to brush up on it a bit, because you're obviously not very knowledgeable. Wrongful termination suits can certainly be successful if an employee is terminated contrary to what an established employee handbook says, because that would be considered disparity of treatment or discriminatory practice. That doesn't mean that the terms of an employee handbook or enforceable, however. If your employee handbook states that you'll receive at least 12 days off, for example, the company can change that tomorrow without any prior notice, and you'll have no recourse. In addition, at-will employees can be terminated at any time for any reason as long as discriminatory practice is not involved.

Wow! That's an incredible statement coming from a ALPA guy who previously said Skywest pilots don't have an enforceable contract. Skywest management and SAPA's signatures are indeed in our contract and it does say that this is the agreeable work rules and pay for the pilot group. The judge would see that and case closed.

Again, you are misinformed.

What no rebuttal? You're saying I made the whole thing up?

How many pilots have been furloughed from SWA, the most heavily-unionized airline in history? ZERO! Business models determine furloughs, not unions.

OK, so Southwest hasn't furloughed. Big deal as it pertains to others. Why isn't the union contributing to the business models at the other carriers?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

OK, so Southwest hasn't furloughed. Big deal as it pertains to others. Why isn't the union contributing to the business models at the other carriers?

Air Line Pilots do not run Airlines. They safely and effciently move jets from point A to B.

How isn't the union contributing to the business model? Unions want their airlines to succeed. Why would they not?

 

[PCL_128]

Wow! That's an incredible statement coming from a ALPA guy who previously said Skywest pilots don't have an enforceable contract.

SkyWest pilots don't have an enforceable contract. What you do have is federal statutes that prohibit companies from acting in a discriminatory way. If they set a policy, for example, that says employees can call in sick three times per year no questions asked, but they terminate a guy they don't like after he calls in sick twice, citing excessive absenteeism, then he has a case. It has nothing to do with having contractual rights. You just have the same rights as employees at any other company in this country.

Skywest management and SAPA's signatures are indeed in our contract and it does say that this is the agreeable work rules and pay for the pilot group. The judge would see that and case closed.

You're just flat-out wrong. That document isn't worth the paper on which it's printed. The signatures are meaningless. Call a labor attorney if you don't want to believe me.

What no rebuttal? You're saying I made the whole thing up?

Yep.

OK, so Southwest hasn't furloughed. Big deal as it pertains to others. Why isn't the union contributing to the business models at the other carriers?

Not sure what you're even asking here. As Rez said, pilots don't run airlines, managements do. Bad airline business models are created by morons with MBAs that didn't have the talent to get hired in more lucrative industries. Unions don't create bad business models.

 

[Tarzan]

Excellent..

Still not an ALPA fan....but very well said.

Now will they hear you.

These guys here? Probably not but I'll share as much as I can and to help inform pilots so they can make their choices.

I am not what you coin an ALPA cheerleader but there are good aspects and good people involved. I'd rather have the legal backing of the RLA than not. It does give us some voice with the company because they have to deal with us. That being said, I want my company to have some flexibility to still be profitable when times get rough but I also want to see some of that come back to us when times are good. Moderation seems to work much better instead taking all you can or giving up everything in a hope to secure something. Both ways don't seem to have the desired outcomes. Comair and Mesa fit both respectively and you see what is becoming of both, rather sadly for the Comair guys. (I have a had time pitying the MAG much. Most knew the sort of place they were going and saw only a quick upgrade then off to a Legacy)

I am suspicious of both company and union but somewhere in the middle lies the solution. If we both learn to work together and be inventive in how we attack these issues, an airline with a union can be successful. It just takes the right people. That's where we all come in. Involve as many as you can. Don't shut out guys Rez and PCL. Don't shut the more conservative voices. All have some validity in the aurguements (except that Marxist Mao Tsu Rez).