Jetblue, VA ansd Skywest benefit from ALPA.......again...

[buscap]

Joe,

Put your money where your mouth is. Have a backbone and at least resign from the union. Start with that and then your argument about ALPA'a hypocrisy will seem a little less, shall we say, hypocritical.

I'm not saying ALPA is perfect, but your continual ALPA slam with absolutely no mention of a single positive aspect of ALPA is getting old. The good is there, buried in a steaming pile maybe, but it is there no less and should be acknowledged.

How bout at least one sentence start with, "ALPA sucks, but..."

 

[Flightdawg]

What caused the ALPA drive to fail miserably last time at Skywest was the ALPA extremist we have spewing their nonsense and trying to buy your a "yes" vote with lunch and most importantly insulting every pilot who doesn't agree with them.

So you made the decision whether or not to form a union for your own benefit and protection because of one idiot? Wow. Your choice.

ALPA isn't the holy grail and it isn't even the best union. It's just the best airline pilot union available. It needs a lot of improvement, especially regarding regional and cargo pilots. Those changes are happening, but too slowly for some. Since USAir bailed and due to the huge hits at DAL/NWA and United, many ALPA leadership slots have opened and been filled by regional pilots. ALPA is changing for the better. It will change faster if more pilots became involved to help it change.

 

[Caveman]

Rez, which airline do you fly for? I should know this, but I can't remember.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Joe,

Put your money where your mouth is. Have a backbone and at least resign from the union. Start with that and then your argument about ALPA'a hypocrisy will seem a little less, shall we say, hypocritical.

I'm not saying ALPA is perfect, but your continual ALPA slam with absolutely no mention of a single positive aspect of ALPA is getting old. The good is there, buried in a steaming pile maybe, but it is there no less and should be acknowledged.

How bout at least one sentence start with, "ALPA sucks, but..."

Way to go Buscap, you've chased Joe away now.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Once again the union haters do what management loves best and is even willing to pay for.... infighting and divide and conquer.

Too difficult for hater debaters, the issue is access to govt. Airlines and corporations don't want to share govt access, so they can shape laws to their advantage. But the haters would rather fight their fellow pilots. It is turning the pilots of this profession into wage slaves. Unfortunately there are those pilots all too willing to do just that.... it is self destructive.

Unionism is why Jetblue pilots need to remove themselves from 'employee' status amongst the FAs, gate agents and rampers and switch to professional status. Join an in house union if need be, but do something. JB management knows this is the only way, legally, give pilots different benefits than other employees. What is good for one employee group is legally binding for all. Until JB pilots change that, they will be treated just like gate agents and FAs. How does JB management want to treat its pilots? Like employees or professionals? How do the JB pilots want to be treated?

It would be interesting if the values committee at JB wanted to created a Code of Ethics for their pilot group. (a great idea... go for it) How would that be received? I haven't been on in house union websites lately... but each group needs to get their own Code of Ethics.

Skywest pilots simply need to man up. Not sure what the logic is in an in-house regional union. The temptation to go in house is everywhere, even at large airlines. USAIR is a classic example. If ALPA is bad, USAPA is a total failure....

The logic to go in house is based upon the ideal that all that matters are local. IOW dealing with only ones own management. (The rules that management plays by is national.) When in actually the pilot profession is national. The future of the professional is going to be determined internationally. In house unions enjoy the small benefit of small group dynamics: it is easier to run a small group than a large one.

However the benefits of being a part of not only a national union, but an international union, a federation actually.... far out weigh the easier path of in house union politics.



Do you want to be a professional Air Line Pilot or a employee?

 

[waterski]

Who Cares.

 

[OurMoney1]

Rez is amusing, clueless, and naive.

Try telling the several thousand retiree(s) who lost their pensions that ALPA is the answer. Their inaction set new norms for how management justifies their actions, changing the industry forever. The largest airline union in the nation sacrificed pensions, the last valuable pillar that made this job worth having. And today companies like AA, UPS, Fed Ex, cautiously negotiate fearing they will be the next target of fund raiders. My hats off to my peers at LCC and DAL. ALPA gave your retirement to the wolves.

Yep....Rez you can have ALPA. Its an organization that should serve as the benchmark of how not to conduct union business.

 

[PCL_128]

How exactly do you think ALPA should have handled the pension issue? Sorry, but there was no way around it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez is amusing, clueless, and naive.

Try telling the several thousand retiree(s) who lost their pensions that ALPA is the answer. Their inaction set new norms for how management justifies their actions, changing the industry forever. The largest airline union in the nation sacrificed pensions, the last valuable pillar that made this job worth having. And today companies like AA, UPS, Fed Ex, cautiously negotiate fearing they will be the next target of fund raiders. My hats off to my peers at LCC and DAL. ALPA gave your retirement to the wolves.

Yep....Rez you can have ALPA. Its an organization that should serve as the benchmark of how not to conduct union business.

Unfortunately, for you, you can't dump the pension issue solely on ALPA....

In Canada, when UAL was going thru BK and wanted to gut Canadian workers pensions, just as it did in the USA, the Canadian govt told UAL that it could not. Again, this compliments what I said about unions having access to govt.

You can thank Americans who give corporations a free pass on just about everything.

In addition, the pension relief that ALPA companies got was from TA's that were voted upon by the pilot membership. With a 'gun' their heads, pilots voted to pay their monthly mortgage and food thus worrying about their pensions 'later'.

What you might want to consider is legislation that obligates corporations to keep pension and retirement accounts sound and in the black. Again, this goes to access to govt.

Finally, how do we want to define the airline industry? A cash cow for a few or do we want to declare it a national asset where all the stakeholders are considered.


Blaming ALPA is like finding a silver bullet cause for an accident. It just doesn't happen. But doing so is the easy way out.... and it sure does feel good to play the blame game....

 

[Caveman]

Rez, which airline do you fly for? I should know this, but I can't remember.

Second request.

 

[OurMoney1]

How exactly do you think ALPA should have handled the pension issue? Sorry, but there was no way around it.

Shut the weak down, let them fail, go out of business. Cancelling pensions should not be the "save all" answer. If LCC ALPA not allowed this to happen the pilots at DAL would likely still have pensions. They gave management a new tool to use. Shame and disgust!

It has forever changed the industry and left airline boardrooms salivating with ideas. It should never have been an option. And to suggest that now today through legislation we can recoup the damage done is weak at best. It's too late....Pilot pensions are gone.

ALPA gave a green light and the rest is history. The soul reason why I believe ALPA is not the answer and never will be. They crumbled under one of the most critical issues of our careers and it affected every P121 pilot in the nations that aspires for more.

 

[PCL_128]

That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Easy for someone to say that is safe in his Brown airplane at a company making nearly $1 billion per quarter. Not so easy for thousands of pilots that were looking down the barrel of a gun and contemplating the end of their ability to make a living to support their families. They made the right decision, as distasteful as it was. Perhaps if all of the far-right-leaning moron pilots would start supporting ALPA-PAC and voting for pro-labor candidates, we might be able to fix those laws so you don't have to watch pilots give away their pensions again to save their livelihoods. Until then, keep your selfish Monday-morning QBing to yourself.

 

[Caveman]

That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Easy for someone to say that is safe in his Brown airplane at a company making nearly $1 billion per quarter. Not so easy for thousands of pilots that were looking down the barrel of a gun and contemplating the end of their ability to make a living to support their families. They made the right decision, as distasteful as it was. Perhaps if all of the far-right-leaning moron pilots would start supporting ALPA-PAC and voting for pro-labor candidates, we might be able to fix those laws so you don't have to watch pilots give away their pensions again to save their livelihoods. Until then, keep your selfish Monday-morning QBing to yourself.

Pot meet kettle. Most pilots are just trying to support their families. Some do it at a union shop some do not. Some pilots work at union shops even though they aren't particularly fond of unions and vice versa. You and Rez need to get off your high horses and quit judging good men and woman simply based on where they work. ALPA needs to clean up it's own messes before it starts preaching to the rest of us how great they are. When you get Mesa and AirTran and AStar fixed, get back to me.

BTW, Rez third request. Where do you work? You're the ALPA cheerleader that started this conversation. Why won't you answer a simple question?

 

[OurMoney1]

That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. Easy for someone to say that is safe in his Brown airplane at a company making nearly $1 billion per quarter. Not so easy for thousands of pilots that were looking down the barrel of a gun and contemplating the end of their ability to make a living to support their families. They made the right decision, as distasteful as it was. Perhaps if all of the far-right-leaning moron pilots would start supporting ALPA-PAC and voting for pro-labor candidates, we might be able to fix those laws so you don't have to watch pilots give away their pensions again to save their livelihoods. Until then, keep your selfish Monday-morning QBing to yourself.

Well Boo-Hoo sounds like your panties need changing. You lack a historical perspective on exactly how the USAir pilots lost their pensions. It wasn't done by rank and file, but instead by a small group with the blessing of national. I'd encourage everyone to learn more about how this went down, its part interesting and telling. Someday when the Easties are pardoned a few years of chaos I'm sure someone will write a tell all for historical preservation.

Had the pilots at USAir been more informed perhaps history would tell a different story. My personal belief is that the stoic older guys would have told management to stick it up their backside rather than scuttle the industry. But unfortunately time was not on their side and the information was not given to the group. As far as your right leaning pilot comments are concerned, thanks for the compliment. In the 80's you knew you were living well when you got paid and could pay all your bills and still pay cash for a new Cadillac. So enjoy your 401k kid, cus when you hang the hat up your gonna need more than your hefty little savings account and debit card. But thats the way you wanted it, so enjoy it!

 

[PCL_128]

Well Boo-Hoo sounds like your panties need changing. You lack a historical perspective on exactly how the USAir pilots lost their pensions. It wasn't done by rank and file, but instead by a small group with the blessing of national. I'd encourage everyone to learn more about how this went down, its part interesting and telling. Someday when the Easties are pardoned a few years of chaos I'm sure someone will write a tell all for historical preservation.

I'm well aware of how it all went down. One of the Status Reps that voted on that issue is a good friend of mine. The MEC had no choice but to take the action that they did. It saved USAirways, and it saved the livelihoods of thousands of pilots as a result. There was no time for a membership vote, and the MEC couldn't keep the group informed of USAirways' dire financial circumstances, because it would have killed them on Wall Street and destroyed any chances of the airline weathering the storm. Thanks to the actions of those MEC members, the pilots of USAirways survived to fight another day. Easy for you to think differently from the comfort of your Brown airplane with your pension still intact and your pay raises still coming.

 

[Hamburger]

How exactly do you think ALPA should have handled the pension issue? Sorry, but there was no way around it.

Well publicized Nationwide walk-out. How about bypassing companies and start negotiating with Congress? We've already got that access you love to talk about, free of charge. Shut the system down and we'll get a seat at the table. Bankruptcy Laws that protect pensions? Rest Rules? Airway Labor Act? The world is our oyster if we grow some balls.

 

[PCL_128]

Well publicized Nationwide walk-out.

That's just a wee bit illegal, not to mention that most pilots wouldn't participate, knowing that a shutdown would likely cause the liquidation of their airlines. Great plan.

How about bypassing companies and start negotiating with Congress?

You mean the Republican Congress that we had at the time? Good luck with that. They're very labor friendly. [/sarcasm]

Bankruptcy Laws that protect pensions? Rest Rules? Airway Labor Act? The world is our oyster if we grow some balls.

ALPA is making good progress on the first two, and beginning work on modifying the RLA.

"Growing balls" isn't what it takes; it takes political know-how and friendly lawmakers. Tough-guy antics will only result in new laws that make it even worse for us. Ask the guys at PATCO how their illegal strike turned out. Great blueprint to follow.

 

[Tarzan]

Perhaps if all of the far-right-leaning moron pilots would start supporting ALPA-PAC and voting for pro-labor candidates, we might be able to fix those laws so you don't have to watch pilots give away their pensions again to save their livelihoods. Until then, keep your selfish Monday-morning QBing to yourself.

PCL, you and Rez really need to give this web board thing a break. You are not helping the situation at all. I'd personally like to have folks involved excpet I want guys like JoeMerchant involved too. We have enough of your type view point and need some moderating influences as well.

So far as your assumption of far right morons.. I am one of them and I am part of ALPA and doing my part. The majority of the pilot population is made up of far right morons like myself. Thankfully, your type makes up a small but unfortunately vocal part of the population that seeks to only better itself over the short term while ignoring market forces. You and Rez pretend to operate inside a vacuum with no external pressures being applied. YOur great imperial government is not the answer as the bigger it becomes, the greater a burden it becomes to the company. The share holders need to realize investments on their money. Without this possibility, these greedy people will take their money else where whereas they can make money on their investments. This takes away from the pay and benefits we could have in this business. Your way is not the answer. Neither is total unfettered free markets either but your method has been tried time again through out history only to fail. You're simply to proud to admit you may be over reaching.

Really though, you and Rez need to scram and let the grown ups make informed choices. As much as you don't believe it, it ALPA members are given all sides of the story, they can generally make good choices which flies in the face of your indoctrination at Herndon. Because you're a hardliner, fellow pilots won't tell you this sort of stuff because they fear being labeled. However, an overwhelming number of pilots react much more favorably when I give all the information I possibly can without violating anything and generally get much less emotion and well thought out answers from guys. Give it break here. You aren't doing ALPA any favor with your venom, hate and name calling.

 

[Erlanger]

Real professionals would demand a legally enforceable contract.

Apparently you don't have many pilot friends and you're not talking to your jumpseaters. There are more contract violations at union carriers then there ever are at Skywest. So much for these enforceable contracts.

 

[Erlanger]

A professional wouldn't judge his fellow pilots without a complete investigation. But no one could ever confuse you with a professional, anyway.

You should read the "Majors" boards here on FI. Looks like most of those "professionals" over there are pre-judging the NW pilots.