Jetblue Pilot Strength and Unionizing

[Flying Freddie]

I have many years with both ALPA and the Teamsters. I will welcome ALPA right after the class action suit that I have against them is settled. All those years that I paid dues could have been put on black 13. ALPA can bite me. Have a nice day!

 

[T-Bags]

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

Your suggestion is way too much of an over reaction for the current situation. Just because somebody lights a match doesn't mean you have to call out an entire fire department to put it out.

Skirt

Skirt, I'd like you to clarify your statement. Are you now saying that ALPA and Unions are "bad" things? as to the fire, that's the attitude that results in million acre forest fires. when do you call the fire department? when the flames hit 50 feet?

If you don't want ALPA, then don't get ALPA. If you don't want to pay 1.95% (a BARGAIN), then DON'T!! personally I thinks it's foolish not to get a good union with COMREHENSIVE protection. this isn't just about pay. Who are you gonna call when that inevitable bent wingtip happens? do you honestly trust Dave that much? What if it's a MX issue and that manager is more interested in protecting his Arse than yours? Who's going to bat for YOU? Do you have the potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars to hire a defense team to protect you? Do you have access to some of the most respected accident/incident investigators in the world? but back to the 1.95%. you don't want to pay it? then fine, take up a fricken donut collection and ORGANIZE. you don't HAVE to have an adversarial relationship with the company. You are paid standards rates. you don't get merit pay increases. your value is as a GROUP, NOT individually. do you think this was a simple oversight? A faux pas? then wouldn't you think a JB pilots association (sorry, a JB "crewmembers club") would have BENEFITTED the company? Let's see, ole Dave could have gotten on the horn with Dizel (one of the few rational "been around the block" guys) and said "Hey D8, I'm thinking about new 190 pay rates, what would the "crewmember" think of these numbers?" then D8 could say "Well Dave, I think they'd see them as a slap in the face. They are already telling everybody just how much of a caring saint you are and these rates would prove otherwise, so I think they should be 20% higher and I think the effect would be a happier, more productive "crewmember" and would keep Jblu as the carrier of choice for those who plan to die before retirement age". Dave "well D8 I hadn't thought of that, after reviewing the numbers, will 15% work?" D8 "Sure Dave!! Hugs and kisses, you're still my pal!! friends to the end, hidy ho!!"

the simple question is why WOULDN'T they want you guys organized so that you COULD speak with ONE voice. "No Dave, over 8 hours of flying in a duty day is stupid!!" "No dave, min turn crew rest after an all nighter is dangerous..."

 

[nimtz]

The JB guys are right about one thing. Those Mid Atlantic rates didn't help anyone!!! Why have we not commented on them?


Just Curious,

AA

Agreed they didn't help the situation, but you can base Mid Atlantic on terrible rates established at Mesa, CHQ, and to an extent Eagle. However there are two key distinctions we have to make here.

1) We are talking about 70 seaters at Mid Atlantic. I totally agree that 70 seat
rates are way under what they need to be, but outside of Mesa nobody has
come out with a pay rate and firm deliveries for 90 seaters. In my
eyes payrates should start off of Northwest DC-9's or American F-100's
pay.

2) Let's face it US Air is mortally wounded and there is not much room to
scream for adequate pay over there. Yes I think the Mid Atlantic guys are
way underpaid, but it was either take those rates or see the 70 seaters get
shipped off to Mesa. That was the reality folks.

Were are talking about 90 seat airplanes at JetBlue and no management team can sell any of us on this airplanes being low revenue producers thus requiring much lower pay. Make no mistake these airplanes are the small narrowbodies of the future. Also we are talking about one of the most successful LLC of recent time, not a crippled LLC. Those 190's will be flown by JB pilots who came to JetBlue to make the decent living they felt they could not make at the regional level. The bottom line is these pay rates are more similiar to Mesa then Southwest from a seat-by-seat basis.

With these payrates, JetBlue management has shown that a significant part of JetBlue's future workforce is worth just a little more then some starting out at a regional. I hope you JB guys are right that you're management team will reconsider those rates. Unfortunately those who sign our checks seem to think if the airframe was made in Brazil or Canada the pilots are worth a fraction what they are worth if it was made in Seattle or Tolouse. A sad sign for our collective futures.

 

[taxionewire]

If you were looking for a backbone

You are in the wrong forum. There's not a spine to be found here.

These guys are true believers, and only care about one thing: themselves. They still think Neeleman loves them. The only reason he gave them a pay raise, was because LUV had just gotten a great contract. Period.

 

[lowecur]

Wow, I've never seen the B6 crew so ruffled! But before we compair B6 to SWA in the terms of a Union, recall if you will that SWA HAS a Union, a very good one I might add. So lets get some SWAPA guys in here to let us know the history of why SWAPA was formed at a company who is famous for loving it's employee's. Then we could compair the oranges to blue berries.

I will bet you dollars to donuts, that if you were a McFly on the Wall over at the SWAPA website you would hear most of the guys/gals being told not to air their feeling about the 190 contract over at Flightinfo. I'll bet they have been told "it's an in house discussion," and to keep it that way.

You can also bet that they are discussing the ramifications the 190 contract will have at the next Section 6 discussions. My guess is they will be reluctant to take a 15 to 20% haircut, and suggest Herb & Co bring in the E-jet.

Remember........Collective Bargaining=Adversarial Relationship=Eventual Failure. Unions are for people who can't think for themselves.

 

[AAflyer]

Remember........Collective Bargaining=Adversarial Relationship=Eventual Failure. Unions are for people who can't think for themselves.


Non Union= Take what we give you or leave, regardless of what we could afford to pay!!


AA

P.S. Lowecur, you are not really an analyst, you are some management stooge trying to brainwash pilots. Unions...Evil....

 

[T-Bags]

1) We are talking about 70 seaters at Mid Atlantic. I totally agree that 70 seat rates are way under what they need to be, but outside of Mesa nobody has come out with a pay rate and firm deliveries for 90 seaters. In my eyes payrates should start off of Northwest DC-9's or American F-100's pay.

2) Let's face it US Air is mortally wounded and there is not much room to
scream for adequate pay over there. Yes I think the Mid Atlantic guys are way underpaid, but it was either take those rates or see the 70 seaters get shipped off to Mesa. That was the reality folks.


The MAA "excuse" holds no water.
1. If JBlu insists on a "pay per pax" scheme, then it should be noted that MAA's 1st year Capt pay for the 170 works out on a "per pax basis" to around the equiv of $87 an hour on the 190 (100 seat?). so by dave's own pay scheme, he's now paying less than even MAA.
2. Haven't the Blu "crewmembers" been using the "we's just a new carrier, we's kain't possibly pay them thar established airline rates..." we'll, how old is MAA? Does Blue actually need to match the payrates of a "brand new airline with only a few jets?" How can little ole MAA possibly influence the pay rates at the much larger Blue? A little consistancy would work wonders for your argument... (blu crewmembers, not you nimtz)

 

[lowecur]

Non Union= Take what we give you or leave, regardless of what we could afford to pay!!


AA

P.S. Lowecur, you are not really an analyst, you are some management stooge trying to brainwash pilots. Unions...Evil....

Another conspiracy theorist. I think if you go back to the beginning and read my posts, you'll see I have no loyalty or affiliation with any airline. Am I a mgt supporter?.......yes, but only if it's good mgt. I have no use for the crooks who raped the coffers of the various airlines they pretended to lead. If it was up to me, they and all the board members that created their contracts would spend the next 10 years in Fairbanks, Alaska tossing bags on an Alaska Air 737.

There are very few good Union endings in todays marketplace. The auto industry, trucking industry, garment/textile industry, construction industry, and more too numerous to name, have all priced themselves into oblivion. Eventually the worldwide free marketplace rules. Fortunately, Americans have enough ingenuity to keep reinventing themselves. It's a great country, filled with great people.

 

[chase]

PT 1 SWAPA History

Brief history of SWAPA (courtesy of SWAPA website):

(WORK RULES were defined by the company from 18 June 1973 until the first contract signed on 30 June 1978 )​

​

The Southwest Airlines Pilots’ Association is the sole bargaining unit for and represents all the pilots (and flight engineers) of Southwest Airlines Company, a FAR 121 air carrier. SWAPA was formally recognized in March of 1978 after an abbreviated petitionand recognition process. From it’s 112 founding members to today’s 2700 plus, the Association has navigated through seven contracts, two acquisitions (Morris Air and Muse/Transtar), several associated law suits, and more importantly, managed to help solve mutual problems and concerns between the Pilots and the Company.
​

Prior to recognition, the pilots were without any representation from June 18, 1971, the date of the first flight, until June 1st, 1973. Work provisions and compensation was set by the Company. Pay consisted of a base salary, dependent upon the seat the pilot occupied, plus a sum for each trip flown. Pilots were given employment letters when they started flying and pay was “guaranteed” at $1,000.00 per month for Captains and $400.00 per month for Reserve Captains and First Officers. Pilots were paid the guarantee, which the Company said was “basically 50 trips which in effect each pilot flew at no trip pay.”1 In due consideration, however, Southwest was a struggling company in the early ‘70’s. It started with three B-737’s, added a fourth, sold it to meet debt payments, and all the while fighting the larger carriers of Braniff and Texas International.
​

In June of ’73 the then Executive Vice President – Operations, Rollin King, brought forward what would become known as the first unofficial “Agreement” between the Company and a newly formed Pilot’s Council. Captain Jim Everett was the Association’s first President and served as the Chairman of the Pilot’s Council. This particular agreement codified many areas of interest to the pilots and still exists in today’s contract. The agreement survived through 14 amendments and ended on July 1st, 1978. The key player during this time was Lamar Muse, an experienced aviation hand and champion of productivity, who had a propensity for hardnosed approach to operations and unions. Various expansion scenarios existed in the form of “Midway Southwest” and deregulation expansion. Generally speaking, through the initial post certification years, relations between SWAPA and the Company were good.
​

The Association originated on March 27, 1978 when the Company, in a letter from their legal representative, openly recognized SWAPA. The process had actually started a year earlier when a small group of pilots realized that to better the group’s well being, it would have to organize. Handouts and open solicitation preceded a petition drive that started on March 6th, 1978 and lasted for seven days. All but one of the 112 on the seniority list signed the petition. On the 17th a petition for recognition under Section 9 (c) of the National Labor Relations Act was filed with the National Labor Relations Board. That same day the NLRB notified Southwest Airlines and called for a formal hearing on March 31st.2 After discussion, Southwest recognized SWAPA to the NLRB on March 27th. Mr. Joe Harris, acting for Southwest, noted “The Employer concedes that the unit petitioned for is appropriate for the purposes of collective bargaining. The Petitioner has been active for several years, and the Company has no reason to doubt its continuing majority status among the employees in question.”3 Thus the Southwest Airlines Pilots’ Association was born. One year later Southwest openly recognized SWAPA as the Flight Engineers bargaining unit.4 The timing could not have been any better.​

 

[chase]

PT 2 SWAPA History

Contract History Text​

Early labor relations after SWAPA was certified can be characterized as good. Southwest was still fighting for it’s existence, the bargaining unit was still relatively small and everything flew out of Dallas. Survival and expansion were key issues and the seniority list grew from it’s 112 at Association recognition to 224 by the end of 1981. Contracts Number 1 and 2 were negotiated. Pay and productivity were the key issues at that time. Contract #1 attended to basic issues such as Seniority, defining the term “Trip”, and getting pay for Reserve time. Contract #2 attacked the longevity issue, which would be a lengthy fight over several contracts, started to eliminate “Shortbacks” (PM turns to a 1 leg AM the next day) and raised productivity (i.e. eliminate wasted or nonproductive time).​

As the ‘70’s closed out and Southwest had essentially won it’s survival battle, the 1980’s heralded a new front – a decelerating industry and the resultant push to control any and all costs. The ‘80’s brought the B-Scale; a system of paying new hire pilots less than their counterparts in the same seat. These would become the concessionary years, and relations relative to contracts and wage packages with the Company would change significantly. Contracts remained rather short and tempers were shorter. Contract #3 was negotiated as the pilots at American were fighting their B-Scale battle. Longevity pay was frozen, but there were minimal increases in trip pay.​

Contract #4 can be called “Fighting the B-Scale”. By the time negotiation for this contract came around, the B-Scale issue was on the front burner of all the nation’s airlines. The Company was insistent upon a B-Scale and the pilots were just as adamant against it. Negotiations were drawn out as the Association had to regroup once and continue the fight. Finally, the issue was “kicked down the road” with the pilots taking a pay freeze in lieu of the B-Scale. The thought was that hopefully the wage issue would resolve itself over time and not be on the table later on. While the contract was only two years in length, the Association continued to try and improve its lot by turning inward on the contract and away from pay. The Trip formula was modified, first year First Officer pay was improved, a mach adjustment was inserted and Moving Expenses were added.​

The “End of the Road” came with Contact #5 and the B-Scale. The airline industry was still in a crush and several other major carrier unions had accepted a B-Scale. It was obvious that this would be the major issue at the table. Other issues like retirement, rigs, and coping with the new operational problems that an expanding airline pose would have to wait. Negotiations were quite protracted and at one point the Association filed for mediation. In the end the B-Scale was implemented, but not without a fight. The Company became acutely aware that for the pilots it was a major issue of contention. Again, as the B-Scale occupied center stage, the Association attacked peripheral issues and was successful in adding JA rules where none had existed, integrated longevity into the trip pay system, modified the formula for the non-standard trip, and added a pilot-only 401k plan. The pilots would keep the B-Scale issue as a major point of contention for the next four years.​

Contract #6 was a significant and transitional contract all in one. After four years of the B-Scale, pilots repeated input to the Company, and the group now growing to 795 by the end of 1988, the leverage presented itself to attack and get rid of the two-tiered pay system. Further, the issues of retirement and coping with the growing operational problems of the airline were now on center stage. HOU and PHX were now domiciles, stage length had become longer, holding time in the mid-west was hurting the trip system, duty days had become longer and the FAA had waded in from outside and proposed drug testing. ​

Further, the issue of an adequate retirement system had to be addressed. In sessions that at times were contentious, a contract that involved compromise on both sides was reached. The significance was in the B-Scale fight and the transition was coping with the airline’s continued growth. On the retirement issue, several programs were proposed and discussed to include defined benefit, a rabbi trust, and straight defined contribution. In the end, the B-Scale was eliminated while operational issues such as rigs, overschedule, overfly, line guarantees, and pay increases were secured. Further, a defined contribution program with company matching was reached. The contract was in existence for five years, which was the longest to date.​

As Southwest moved from a “national” to a “major” carrier, so moved the Association into larger issues in Contract #7. The group had grown to 1481 pilots and four domiciles by the end of 1993. After nine month of negotiation the Company asked the pilots to “share” in some of the future growth risk and accept stock options that amounted to 10% of the company for a pay freeze in the first half of a ten year contract. Provisions were negotiated to include all future new hire pilots and pay raises were included in the last 5 years. Importantly, provisions for continuous medical and health coverage were added, and expanded capabilities with regards to pilot’s schedules were added. The contract was approved by a margin of 67% to 33% with 95% of the pilots voting.​

_____________​

Hope this info provides some useful insights and helps. SWA also experienced a 5 year maturation point in its dealing with management. It is somewhat inevitable...like children leaving the nest....its called a business cycle. ​

Good look JB pilots. I wish you continued success and your success will depend greatly upon how well your pilot leadership and management leadership overcomes this blip in your so far stellar rise to be a major carrier. I wish both sides good luck in finding a resolution to this issue. Your critics (who are many of the same critics of SWA) are to be ignored in my opinion....continue to focus internally versus externally for solutions (i.e. non-ALPA...that'll get the spears my way for sure...you JB folks should thank me for that http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/icons/icon27.gif !) ...good luck. ​

p.s. lowecur​

nobody I hear on the SWAPA website or anywhere is discouraging/encouraging any discussions about this issue...SWA won't be taking 190/195's anytime soon if ever in my opinion...we obviously differ on it, OK, fine but if they do it won't be because of these "proposed" pay scales....if they elect to do in the future I'll buy you an adult beverage but I don't think I'll have to pay up in my lifetime. ​