jetblue or continental ??

[BluDevAv8r]

The big retirements may seem good at CAL, but there may be hidden dangers to a new guy's career. I am not smart on their retirement plan, are they getting an A plan benefit? If so, you need to calculate the drain on the company and, in effect, the younger pilots. Can CAL handle it? They can't handle it at DAL. AA is worried they won't be able to handle it. The older pilots are not bad guys but they will shape your future in many ways. Having a younger (junior) pilot group at JetBlue eliminates that variable.

In CAL's latest negotiations round, they froze their A Plan so no, the pension obligations won't be getting any bigger. Also, DAL's pension obligation is $10b and CAL's is $1b. Big difference.

-Neal

 

[Saabslime]

Hey just think.........if you go to Jetblue you can be one of the trailblazers that bring 10-12 hour block days to the industry. I don't care if it is just for transcons, that would be a huge step backwards for this industry.

 

[Air Biscuit]

I can't believe this is even being debated. CAL will retire half of the seniority list in 5 years, are 5 times the size of Jet Blow, and has a major international route structure with widebody aircraft. Oh and I almost forgot, you don't have to clean the cabin.

 

[elag777]

I can't believe this is even being debated. CAL will retire half of the seniority list in 5 years, are 5 times the size of Jet Blow, and has a major international route structure with widebody aircraft. Oh and I almost forgot, you don't have to clean the cabin.

B6 is getting 330's for free, haven't you heard? going over the pond from EWR.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I can't believe this is even being debated. CAL will retire half of the seniority list in 5 years, are 5 times the size of Jet Blow, and has a major international route structure with widebody aircraft. Oh and I almost forgot, you don't have to clean the cabin.

CAL may be retiring 1/2 the list in 5 years. But JetBlue is doubling the number of A-320's and adding 190's. The fleet will almost triple in size.

CAL will payout on the A plans that haven't been "frozen". Not a huge burden I understand, but an expense. An expense the newhire at JetBlue will not have to shoulder.

Will CAL's fleet stay the same size or even grow? I hope so but that is not certain. Will JetBlue actually triple in size? I don't know. The struggle to compete against SWA and Airtran may take its toll. JetBlue pay can be cut more easily to keep the profits coming. Good for the company but bad if your mortgage is suddenly not covered. Without a union, JetBlue pilots can't take care of their own (themselves?) but they can't hose the company either.

Yeah, I think CAL is a better bet. Until the A-plan comes back or the MEC comes up with some other "improvement" to pilot compensation that proves to be ill advised.

 

[Pedro]

CAL will payout on the A plans that haven't been "frozen". Not a huge burden I understand, but an expense. An expense the newhire at JetBlue will not have to shoulder.
.

I would never make a decision based on retirement plans. Other than 401K I wouldn't even count on it, you have to be toonaive to believe that you will get it...

 

[InTheAir]

Any thoughts on what a new hire can expect at either airline?

Assuming you are based at JFK for jb or EWR for cal, how long on reserve, what are reserve lines like, how long is callout, etc.

These types of facts might help the decision process.

 

[propjob27]

CAL Info:

Most likely EWR based. If you get the 737, reserve will last about 3-4 months, assuming you're willing to bid the crappiest line you can hold.
If you get the 757/767, reserve about a year (I think). There have been people able to hold IAH right off the bat as a 737 new hire. Reserve in Houston will be much longer than in EWR. There are a couple of guys who got GUM too, but thats because they actually wanted it.

Reserve lines? 12 days off. Two types of callouts. One is 2 hours to the airport, the other is 9. Both are 12 days off, but the two hour callout pays a 76 hrs vs 72 for the 9 hour. I have no idea if the 9 hour is senior or not. Scheduling has proven to be very flexible when you call them and ask "can I move these days off to these days", inorder to create a larger stretch of days off, vs the 4 on/3 off schedule.

Hope this helps.

PS. All this is moot unless you actually have job offers from both companies.

 

[whymeworry?]

Hey whyme, I don't think all of us are kool aid drinkers, but so far, things have worked out pretty well for me. But, like the USA, we have our fair share of problems, but you wouldn't want to live, or here at JB, work anywhere else. It still amazes me though, how many experts on JB frequent these boards and offer their astute comments and opinions based on disinformation, rumor, and inuendo. I would suggest that you or anybody else that has a specific question PM any JB member with your question. I think you'd be supprised at the candor you'll get for an answer. I'll defend anybody's right of free speech here, but the spewing of gross inaccuracies and personal attacks is well below the dignity of the group of professional that we all claim to be.

I appreciate the clarification. I mean no offence to the JB guys and I have many friends there. It just seems a little "cultish" at times when I speak or listen to JB guys. But then I suppose that is the case at any airline that is growin, SWA gets that way now and again as well. I remember my buds at AQ getting cocky over the years as they were expanding to the mainland. Now they're quiet. Not that there is anyting wrong with loving your airline, your job or the aircraft you fly. But one must be careful to stay grounded (no pun intended) and not get too full of him/herself. Remember how the UAL pilots got in the 1990s.

As far as JB or CAL, it's a total tossup. JB is expanding rapidly but there are clouds on the horizon. CAL is expanding rapidly as well but they have a lot of debt coming due in '07. If the fuel environment spikes again that will most certainly spell trouble for CAL. At CAL you can go int'l. If you like flying all night that may be a good thing. At JB you get a desk up at altitude, assuming you get on the 'bus'.

Of course CAL is unionized, JB isn't. Considering this, CAL is the better alternative. JB guys are riding on cloud 9 because it's been nothing but earnings and growth over the past 5 years. If the company hits a couple of quarters of losses they will enforce paycuts with the swoop of a pen.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

I would never make a decision based on retirement plans. Other than 401K I wouldn't even count on it, you have to be toonaive to believe that you will get it...

You misunderstand my point. I'm saying those above you with an A plan will be a drain on your income. I don't view an A plan as a positive. If you start young at a company with an A plan many may collect from it but it most likely will not include you.

Plan on an A plan to eventually haunt your company and your future if you are a new hire. It's become an unsustainable ponzi scheme the way American companies treat it.

BTW, with the recent CAL losses I've changed my mind again. JetBlue is the better bet.

 

[propjob27]

BTW, with the recent CAL losses I've changed my mind again. JetBlue is the better bet.

If you're going to change your mind everytime an airline posts a quarterly/yearly loss, good luck making a decision and sticking with it.

With that criteria, the only two airlines you can pick from are Southwest and FedEX.

 

[commuterpuke]

If you're going to change your mind everytime an airline posts a quarterly/yearly loss, good luck making a decision and sticking with it.

With that criteria, the only two airlines you can pick from are Southwest and FedEX.

I guess UPS makes too much money for your criteria?

 

[Green]

my .02


Without a doubt go with cal, unless you want to spend the next 30 years flying 90+ hours a month in an A320. Or if you are seriously not sure choose Jblue and leave the cal job for somebody who really wants/appreciates the offer.

 

[propjob27]

I guess UPS makes too much money for your criteria?

The pilots sure don't, not in relation to FedEX anyway. You must have meant the company.

 

[Splinter]

The only thing I see as a BIG negative about CAL is the 1st year compensation package. $2500 per month and no health insurance for 6 months.

I applaude jetBlue, SWA, FedEx, and others who have respectable first year pay. It doesn't make much sense to me to ask CRJ captains and 10 year military officers to take such enormous pay cuts. On average, new hires at major carriers are in their early 30's...meaning they have young children, mortages, and established lives. Asking them to take 60% paycuts for a year only to triple their pay in 12 months is garbage. I could care less if that's how it always was, or that's how others had to do it. Pilots back then didn't face an inflated housing market, skyrocketing healthcare costs, and an overall much higher cost of living of today. Kudos to JB, SWA, FedEx and others for not being inconsiderate to the families you are welcoming to the workforce.

I think the biggest farce of being a newhire at CAL is the healthcare joke. What is a newhire supposed to tell his toddler..."Don't get sick for 6 months." Are you kidding me? COBRA would eat up the overwhelming majority of your take-home pay and then you can find a way to feed your children...after you pay the mortage, electric, and water with whatever pennies are left.

Yet again the best managed airlines understand that new employees are much better employees when they are not on foodstamps, looking out the window for a car to be reposessed, and praying that a mortage will not foreclose. Who cares what long term pay is when you are bankrupt in the short term? Not to mention the marital stress that these situations cause. Ever fly with a pilot going through a divorce? You can only check so much baggage at the cockpit door.

No I am not applying to CAL, and it is for that reason alone. If I were you, it would be jetBlue all the way. If JB is THAT considerate of your family from the 1st day, I believe they would be that concerned about them throughout your career. JMHO

 

[COpilot]

(Quote)As far as JB or CAL, it's a total tossup. JB is expanding rapidly but there are clouds on the horizon. CAL is expanding rapidly as well but they have a lot of debt coming due in '07. If the fuel environment spikes again that will most certainly spell trouble for CAL. )

This is great, and everyone in here thinks tha B6 is debt free? I'm not one of these people who thinks B6 is not paying for the airplanes, of course they are. But don't you understand the Capital Markets; these guys are like any other start up airline (although the best liquid ever on day one), but still they are in hock big time too. And one day they will be over extended with airplanes all over the ramp, and wondering how fast can we cut?

My hats off to what looks like a fun place to work, excellent equipment, and I knew Dave at CO. He was the man who started EWR as the Hub it is today. But B6 is still swimming up stream in the river of a crap industry. Where the bottom line margins are razor thin.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

my .02


Without a doubt go with cal, unless you want to spend the next 30 years flying 90+ hours a month in an A320. Or if you are seriously not sure choose Jblue and leave the cal job for somebody who really wants/appreciates the offer.

It's just a job Francis.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

my .02


Without a doubt go with cal, unless you want to spend the next 30 years flying 90+ hours a month in an A320. Or if you are seriously not sure choose Jblue and leave the cal job for somebody who really wants/appreciates the offer.

CONTINENTAL AIRLINES, INC.​

​

NOTES TO CONSOLIDATED FINANCIAL STATEMENTS
(UNAUDITED)





Primarily due to record-high fuel prices and the continued weak domestic fare environment, the current U.S. domestic network carrier financial environment continues to be poor and could deteriorate further. During the third quarter of 2005, Hurricane Katrina and Hurricane Rita caused widespread disruption to oil production, refinery operations and pipeline capacity along certain portions of the U.S. Gulf Coast. As a result of these disruptions, the price of jet fuel increased significantly and the availability of jet fuel supplies was diminished. Additionally, Hurricane Rita forced us to suspend service for 36 hours at our largest hub, Houston's Bush Intercontinental Airport, costing us an estimated $25 million. Further increases in jet fuel prices or disruptions in fuel supplies, whether as a result of natural disasters or otherwise, could have a material adverse effect on our results of operations, financial position or liquidity.


Among the many factors that threaten us are the continued rapid growth of low-cost carriers and resulting downward pressure on domestic fares, high fuel costs, high labor costs for our flight attendants, excessive taxation, increased security costs and significant pension liabilities. In addition to competition from low-cost carriers, we may face stronger competition from Delta Air Lines, Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp. if those carriers, each of which filed for bankruptcy protection in September 2005, are able to achieve substantial cost reductions in bankruptcy through, among other things, reduction or discharge of debt, lease and pension obligations and wage and benefit reductions.


We have attempted to return to profitability by implementing the majority of $1.1 billion of annual cost-cutting and revenue-generating measures since 2002, and we have also made significant progress toward our goal of achieving an additional annual $500 million reduction in pay and benefits costs. We finalized changes to wages, work rules and benefits for all employees except our flight attendants and certain employees of our wholly-owned subsidiary CMI who are subject to collective bargaining agreements. We began implementing these changes in early April 2005, which, when fully implemented, are expected to result in approximately $418 million of annual pay and benefits cost savings on a run-rate basis.


A significant portion of the cost savings from our work groups, both unionized and non-unionized, will be derived from changes to benefits and work rules. Our ability to achieve certain of the cost reductions will depend on effective implementation of new work rules, actual productivity improvements and implementation of changes in technology pertaining to employee work rules and benefits.



Although revenue trends have been improving, we still expect to incur a significant loss in the fourth quarter and full year 2005 due in large part to record high fuel prices. As a result of escalating prices, fuel expense is our single largest operating expense item for the first time in our history. We have been able to implement some fare increases on certain domestic and international routes in recent months, but these increases have not fully offset the substantial increase in fuel prices.

Taking into consideration our expected fourth quarter loss, $356 million of debt and capital lease principal payments due in the fourth quarter of 2005 and the $65 million cash pension contribution we made in October 2005, we currently expect that our unrestricted cash and short-term investments balance as of December 31, 2005 will be approximately $1.4 billion, not including any fourth quarter capital market transactions or other financings, except for previously announced aircraft financing transactions.

We also believe that under current conditions, absent adverse factors outside of our control, such as additional terrorist attacks, hostilities involving the United States, a further delay in the restart of the Gulf Coast refineries or further significant increases in crude oil prices, our existing liquidity and projected 2006 cash flows will be sufficient to fund current operations and other financial obligations through 2006. However, we have significant financial obligations due in 2007 and thereafter, and it is possible that we will have inadequate liquidity to meet those obligations if the current adverse domestic fare environment for network carriers does not improve materially, fuel prices remain high and we are unable to increase our revenue or decrease our costs considerably or raise additional liquidity through financing activities and/or by selling non-strategic assets. Our recent pay and benefit cost reductions are helping us reduce our overall costs, but we do not expect that these reductions in and of themselves will provide sufficient liquidity or restore our long-term profitability in the current environment.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

double post

 

[FLY CONTINENTAL]

Some info about Continental:

I have been here for about 4 months. In my new hire class were 3 of 16 pilots from LCC's including myself. It was a pay cut for me but I think the long term opportunity will be greater if the plan works. Continental is a great place to work and you would have a lot of fun here.

First year pay is $30/hr on any equiptment. If the data is correct that is about $7 less an hour than what an EMB190 pilot makes at B6. After year one the pay increases and over your career would be higher at Continental also depending on when you upgrade. Year 2 pay at Continental is competitive with most LCC's and if awarded the 767 is higher. All the numbers are quite accurate on www.airlinepilotpay.com

Some carriers require you purchase a type rating, Continental gives you one for F/O's. Folks pay $5-7K for a type rating we get $30/hr first year. If it is all about first year pay then go to a place that pays better.

Medical Benefits- many companies offer medical after 6 months, some offer immediately. You can purchase Cobra or Continental offers a separate plan to new hires that covers the first 6 months.

Other Benefits- New Hires can participate in "B" plan which is your money to invest plus 401K. Perfect Attendance policy, On-time bonus other small ammounts plus profit sharing. CO made money last year but expects to loose for the year like B6.

Future- Continental has obstacles but the current management team is organized and focused on Continental being a survivor. Our international growth is going well and more destinations will be announced to S. America, Europe and Asia. Additionally CO is competing aggressively with the LCC's and like B6 is able to charge a premium because of the service we provide.

If you would like to hear from our CEO Larry every Friday he puts out a VM to all employees 877-324-6683. The facts are out there, we are all proud of where we work and I would not suggest picking a carrier based on year 1 salary. Go where you think you would enjoy working and have fun. Also in relation to year 1 pay, hypothetically if you got hired at B6 and ended up being an FO on the 190 for 7 years the pay is not that exciting either. The excitmement at B6 is Captain fast which is great. Although even SWA has 5-6 year upgrades now. It is all relative.

Auburn 31, Georgia 30