jetblue or continental ??

[FurloughedTwice]

There really isn't a bad decision here and it would be a nice position to be in if they both offer you a job. I do know that JetBlue has one of the lowest RASM's in the industry but right now their costs (CASM) are, I think, the lowest in the industry so it's currently not a big problem. If they don't fix the revenue problem they will start to feel the pressure in the coming years. Especially since these "legacy" carriers are lowering their CASM to better compete.

I'm not sure I agree with the 190's either because they are essentially raising their CASM as they add more 100 seat airplanes into an already saturated market. Small airplanes are expensive and if another airline matches their flights with 150 seat airplanes JetBlue will lose. They may have a better product but even if they fill their planes the 150 seat airplane can price JetBlue out of the market. All that plays into their RASM problem.

Having said all that if CAL doesn't have a good 2006 then just like the SEC filing stated they will have some problems in 2007.

What type of flying did you see yourself doing in the future? If it was flying a wide body internationally then go to CAL. If that doesn't appeal to you then go to JetBlue. I would not base my decision on "stability" because there is no such thing. (as you can see from my username) The industry is slowly rebounding and I think both airlines are going to be around for a long time.

Good luck!!

 

[GogglesPisano]

Ask any financial planner and he'll tell you that the traditional legacy pay scales are not as conducive to building wealth as a more "front-loaded" pay progression (ie: JetBlue.) Twenty-somethings, working spouses, lottery winnings, and trust-fund-babies aside, making $27,000/yr and then spending $7,000 of that on COBRA is digging a hole which, for the average 30-something with a family and mortgage, will take many years to climb out of.

In this day and age, I wouldn't worry about a 12-yr pay scale. It probably will be a lot different after 12 years.

I'd take Jetblue if given a choice. I know of a few guys who've left CAL during training to go there. The reason? They couldn't afford CAL to begin with.

 

[FLY CONTINENTAL]

Well if Cobra is $7000 then use Continental's Medical Clinic at all the hubs it is free.

Also there are B6 and FL new hires at Continental right now. This first year pay seems to be a big issue and if so if you are a Captain you are probably making what year 1 at B6 would be. Continental like most readjusted pay to remain competitive and thus 1st year took a hit. Jetblue starts off at $37/hr and AirTran $43 per hour but year 2 at Continental is more so a little here and there is about evens out.

Again pay $7500 for Cobra if that is what it is or goto SWA and purchase a type before. I think in the end year one would be about the same anywhere.

Continental pays for hotel,flight pay and per diem in training. B6 pays hotel flat rate salary, AirTran does not pay hotel but pays flight pay. Southwest does not pay hotel.

The medical Continental offers to new hires before 6 months is not just Cobra but a separate package and does not cost that much. It's not regular but it's not Cobra.

 

[AAflyer]

Ask any financial planner and he'll tell you that the traditional legacy pay scales are not as conducive to building wealth as a more "front-loaded" pay progression (ie: JetBlue.) Twenty-somethings, working spouses, lottery winnings, and trust-fund-babies aside, making $27,000/yr and then spending $7,000 of that on COBRA is digging a hole which, for the average 30-something with a family and mortgage, will take many years to climb out of.

In this day and age, I wouldn't worry about a 12-yr pay scale. It probably will be a lot different after 12 years.

I'd take Jetblue if given a choice. I know of a few guys who've left CAL during training to go there. The reason? They couldn't afford CAL to begin with.

Interesting,

I heard that JetBlue lost some pilots to CAL. This came from a furloughed AA pilot hired at CAL. They were in his class.

AA

 

[GogglesPisano]

Interesting,

I heard that JetBlue lost some pilots to CAL. This came from a furloughed AA pilot hired at CAL. They were in his class.

AA

As with anything, different strokes. Guys left UA to go to SWA and vice versa in the late 90's.

CAL seems to be a good company to work for after the first year. But we all come from different situations, and for some that first year at CAL has too hefty a price tag.

 

[LandGreen]

I went to Big D during the times when they had the best pay, retirement etc etc in the industry!!! spent two days getting the red carpet treatment and being coached to burn your resumes...this is the last job you will ever have to apply for...you have hit the lottery! what a great feeling it was.

then one morning i turned on the TV! how all things can change in seconds!! before we knew it the same folks coaching us to burn resumes were ushering us out the door claiming "force majeur." (oh yeah...alpa had a no furlough clause in our contract)

after awhile B6 was the only place that hired furloughed guys and allowed them to keep their seniority numbers...why? i guess they thought that if you really didn't like it you could go back on recall and they were betting their training dollars you will like it. how many other majors do that? not sure?

anyway...my point is (sorry it took so long) you can research to your heart's content...but most of your success in the airline business will have to be attributed to dumb luck.

CAL could be the best choice, or B6 could be the best choice. You won't know for sure until you turn 60! after being burned in the airline business for many years i think you adopt a day by day attitude. maximize time with family...hope the airline survives...and most importantly find a backup career to make money on the side to supplement decreasing salaries, AWOL pensions and increasing health care costs.

good luck with your decision...we all need it!

 

[firstthird]

FLY CONTINENTAL

Southwest does not pay hotel.

True for the interview, 1 night. Not true for training, 6 weeks. SWA does pay hotel and salary during training.

Now back to our jetBlue/B6 face off.

 

[densoo]

CAL could be the best choice, or B6 could be the best choice. You won't know for sure until you turn 60!

And even that is no guarantee. Ask all the UAIR guys who saw their retirement cut by 2/3--years after they left the airline at 60.

 

[AlbieF15]

Whymeworry...

You indicated JB is a bad choice because without a contract (or union) they can unilaterally cut pay in tough times. You are correct.

The problem with that thinking is so can Delta, NWA, and a host of other carriers. They may have to go negotiate a bit first (ala NWA and DAL), but if/when they declare Chpt 11 they do the same thing again. Job protection? SWA and JB kept all their employees in the post 9/11 trauma, and even offered raises. DAL, AA, and NWA all went backwards in pay, work rules, and number of pilots employed.

My point is not that CAL is a worse choice than JB, but rather that having a contract or a union doesn't mean much when your company is sinking. I am a proud ALPA member and haven't missed a dues payment, but I am a PRO PILOT person first. At my company, ALPA is a very important part of my Q of life. At JB, so far, it seems the pilots have been able to work effectively without a union. At SWA, they have a union, but an independent one. So...whatever creates the best Q of life for the bros at that carrier is what makes the most sense to me.

Back to CAL...if hired now, its sort of like the chance I had when I got hired by JB in 2001...rapid advancement and seniority accrual. Upsides also include lots of fleet types and a Texas domicile (if that's your bag). JB offers a very sound product, still some rapid growth, and a great work culture. Both have risk as they face the upcoming challenges. There are a ton of variables to consider. However, even as a proud ALPA member, I wouldn't go to one over the other based on perceived "protection" for my job or pay rates based on being union. So far, even the union hasn't been able to plug the dike on eroding pay, benefits, and work rules. We'll do our best over here on the cargo side to hold the line and hope for a nice rebound for everyone in the next couple years.

 

[Patriot328]

I had a friend of mine with the same "problem" as the original poster (jetblue or continental, if anyone forgot after five pages).

He chose JetBlue. It was a tough decision for him, but it came down to first year pay and a Long Beach base. His wife was on the verge of losing her job and they had a youngun to take care of. The $30/hr and no health insurance for six months was too much for him in the short term even though long term CAL is better financially for someone hired today (and as more 190s show up at JB, in the future as well) at either airline. The possibility of getting based in Long Beach and not having to do a cross country commute played a big part in the decision as well.

I didn't have the choice to make as I hadn't started pulling in favors from people at jB when CAL called me, but I'm very happy I got hired at CAL when I did. Retirements are just starting to kick in and movement is very quick. People are sitting reserve in EWR for next to no time on the 737 and people are able to hold IAH 757 out of training in the next bid. Variety of equipment and flying is great. Pay is horrendous the first year, but it goes up second year and is as good as or better than anything other than planes that have brown, purple, or that funky orange tails. Average upgrade times are going to shrink in the relatively near future as well because of retirements and the fact they haven't hired in so long. If you want to slum it out in EWR on the 737, you could probably upgrade in less than 4 years. JB upgrade is a little quicker on the 320, but not very much. Second year on the 756, you can make about as much if not a little more than CA on the E190. The pay only diverges from there....


The only real thing that would make me weary about going to jetblue is the pay rates on the 190s, especially the FOs. I know, I know... "but upgrades are a year or less.. no one stays on it for long!" That is the same sh*t I heard at ACA during the 2001 contract road shows about J41 and D328 First Officer pay rates. "We're upgrading in 18 months so it's not that big of a deal. Everyone will be captains." Well, as ACAers found out shortly thereafter, the music can stop at ANY TIME. We had 4-5 yr Dojet FOs making less than $30/hr. When the delieveries slow down, and they WILL slow down eventually, it is going to suck working at JB if you're on the bottom of the list. If you get to jetBlue now, that most likely won't happen, but keep it in the back of your mind that there is a possibility that you could be a 5-7 year FO on the E190/320. A 5-7 year FO at CAL doesn't sound as bad to me.


All that bein said, where do you live or want to live? Not commuting is worth thousands of dollars a year to most people, myself included!