jetBlue, I'm ready for a union

[jetblue320]

320....tell me you don't see a difference between ALPA and what SWA and AirTran have in their professional associations.


Cheers.

If you are asking me (jetBlue320) I know the difference. My response was in reference to that other guy who posted something about Airtran and SWA.

I wasn't confused, but maybe you are thinking I was someone else?

C yaaa

 

[2dogs]

From a not too bright bulb!

Because when you guys drop your pants and bend over willingly, our bosses will expect the same from us.
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Does "JFK-LGB-JFK in one duty period" ring a bell for anyone??
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Boy, I wish! JFK-LGB-JFK!! Woooo....Woooo! A great 12rs for pay for a 13hr duty day. I could work 8 days/month for 96hrs (26hrs @ time and a half). Opps, would exceed 1000hrs/year! Guess I would have to alternate between 7days/month and 8days/month.

I figure 1 day on, 4days off, 1 day on, 4 off would work..might have to take a couple 5day periods off though.

"Hope springs eternal."

2dogs

 

[stillflyn]

Klhoard,

I'm not sure who you fly for... just a guess....FEDEX? I think that a lot of the guys at JB have been bent over at one point or another. Let me tell you about my time. In May 2003 at UAL I took a 30% pay cut, took a 2% cut to my "B fund", min 12 days off a month down to 10 days off, guarantee dropped from 75hrs to 70hrs. That adds up to a lot. To top that off I got furloughed. That's a 100% paycut. When you find out what ALPA did to help me there let me know.

Unless a guy came straight out of the military to JB there's a 98% chance they have the same story as I do. We know how it works. I would love to make more money and work less. Yes the pay rates on the 190 are low, we all know it. JB made a small profit in the 3rd qt and forcasts a loss for the 4th. There's a time to pick a fight and nows not the time.

I don't think the FAA went for the coast to coast turns.

 

[klhoard]

2dogs,

That was my point. If you guys got your "exception" to the FAR's, then it's only a matter of time until the rest of us are getting reamed with the same rules. Unfortunately for us here at FDX, those coast to coast to coast turns will be happening from 2am to 11am.
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stillflyn,

Fortunately, FDX was the first to call me back in 2000 so I haven't had to go thru a furlough (knock on wood). I won't even pretend to know what you've gone thru at United, as we all know it's a crapshoot.

However, I don't understand how ALPA (or any other union) can keep a carrier from going bankrupt or force them to keep pilots on the payroll when the ship is sinking. I know alot of contracts out there have "no furlough" clauses, but if the money isn't there (for whatever reason - Mgmt or Economy) to keep the paychecks from bouncing, then that clause was just wasted time for the negotiating committee.

 

[2dogs]

Reamed?

2dogs,

That was my point. If you guys got your "exception" to the FAR's, then it's only a matter of time until the rest of us are getting reamed with the same rules. Unfortunately for us here at FDX, those coast to coast to coast turns will be happening from 2am to 11am.
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stillflyn,

Fortunately, FDX was the first to call me back in 2000 so I haven't had to go thru a furlough (knock on wood). I won't even pretend to know what you've gone thru at United, as we all know it's a crapshoot.

However, I don't understand how ALPA (or any other union) can keep a carrier from going bankrupt or force them to keep pilots on the payroll when the ship is sinking. I know alot of contracts out there have "no furlough" clauses, but if the money isn't there (for whatever reason - Mgmt or Economy) to keep the paychecks from bouncing, then that clause was just wasted time for the negotiating committee.

As one guy told me a long time ago, "Fly me, Pay me or Send me home!"

When I strap in, I want to fly. I don't ask for credit or other bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**! Just give me 8+ hrs pay a day and I am happy. Just let me work. The less days I have to go to work, the better for me! Somehow, working 7-8 days amonth is bad?

I am all for a 12 on12 off for the 121 guys. This 16hr crew duty day is bull**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** with only 8hrs of flying. Guess that tells you where I came from!

2dogs

 

[Falconjet]

Wow, those guys at jB REALLY like the coolaid

Posted by iflynights:

"BTW, I am in favor of the transcon turns. I think about about how long I am on duty, not how many hours I fly. I find multiple leg days and long sits more tiring. If you can log 11 hours a day, you would work only 7 days a week. Fedex is a different story, you guys work nights and get paid mostly soft time. I don't see as a good deal for you, but a great deal for airlines."

Emphasis added.

Man Iflynights, you guys really do want to make progress! 11 hours a day 7 days a week. Where do we sign up?



Ok, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

FJ

 

[iflynights]

hah! I meant 7 days a month! But boy think of the money you could make...

 

[klhoard]

Why stop there??

11 hrs. X 7 days = 77 hours.

77 hours / 24 hours = 3.2 days.

Wow!! If you lived in the jet and flew it continuously for 3.2 days non-stop, that would be your entire month!!

Eureka!! I'm calling my MEC representative right now!!!




BTW - I'm still looking for someone to explain to me how a union can keep a company from going bankrupt. . .
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[JB Bus Drvr]

Guys, If this happens (west coast day turns) it will be an exemption granted by the FAA to B6 only!. If anybody else wants to be a part of it, it will cost them money to do so. Exemptions are like STCs in that the owner of the exemption "sells" them to any prospective user. Exemptions are granted to operators, other than the original owner, as a part of membership of an organization, (ie ATA, AOPA, USUA, etc.). If the exeption is granted to B6, it's not because the mgmt. suddenly said let's do it. It will happen because of a lot of research, testing, and data (along with a lot of money spent to do it) will be submitted to the FAA and the Civil Aeromedical Institute for their scrutiny before it happens. There is one final hurdle, even it the exemption is granted, you still have to have the pilot group buy off on it. If they scream long and loud enough, as they have with other initatives recently, it won't happen.

BTW, I'll fly it a few times a month, but not the entire month.

 

[klhoard]

1) Money - not a factor for FDX. If it will save money in the long term, then they will pay it. (remember, our company wrote a $2.8 Billion check for Kinkos)

2) Pilot group resistance - That was my previous point. We will have to waste resources fighting this "bright idea" that would be better spent elsewhere.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

Guys, If this happens (west coast day turns) it will be an exemption granted by the FAA to B6 only!. If anybody else wants to be a part of it, it will cost them money to do so. Exemptions are like STCs in that the owner of the exemption "sells" them to any prospective user. Exemptions are granted to operators, other than the original owner, as a part of membership of an organization, (ie ATA, AOPA, USUA, etc.). If the exeption is granted to B6, it's not because the mgmt. suddenly said let's do it. It will happen because of a lot of research, testing, and data (along with a lot of money spent to do it) will be submitted to the FAA and the Civil Aeromedical Institute for their scrutiny before it happens. There is one final hurdle, even it the exemption is granted, you still have to have the pilot group buy off on it. If they scream long and loud enough, as they have with other initatives recently, it won't happen.

BTW, I'll fly it a few times a month, but not the entire month.

I would imagine that if JB were granted the exemption that there would be some increased rest rules. This may mean that you wouldn't be able to do these trips back to back. This could mean a day off between coast to coast turns. For commuters (I've heard numbers as high as 92% at JB) this cuts in to your time at home, which is what I consider a day off, not spending a day at the pad.

Be careful what you wish for. You just might get it.

Cheers!

GP

 

[iflynights]

KL,

As you can tell by my posts, I am not a koolaid drinker. As for the transcon turns, I am for it. Not from a company standpoint, but from a commuter standpoint. If I could work only seven days a month that would give more time to spend at home. My personal feeling is that I would much rather fly during my duty period (and make money) than sit. I find sits to be more tiring. Airline pilots usually don't sit at the hub (and have a lazy boy to sleep). Or you can fly six or so legs with very short ground times (ask the commuter guys) and would love to be flying a two hop.

In short, what I care about it duty period. Why not change the FAR? I bet ALPA will help change the age 60 rule. Some rules need to be changed, and in my opinion, this one should be changed. In the past, airline pilots worked more soft time. Now it is almost all hard hours. Less trip and duty rigs. So if you have to fly 70-80 hard hours, why not fly them in 7 days or so? Fedex has a strong union, and if you don't want to fly increased hours, then negotiate an 8 hour limit. If I was at my previous major airline, I would still be for this rule.

 

[pilotyip]

No union at JB

From the sounds of this thread there is not wide support for a union at JB. I believe now to have a vote for representation, it is done through a secret on-line ballot. No collecting cards, and talking your on the fence friends to signing a card. A union would probably want at least 70% secret ballots in favor for representation. I don’t think there are that many unhappy JB pilots. Unions are in a business also and need to make a profit. It costs a lot of money to organize an airline, and it is really embarrassing to loose an election for representation.

 

[CSY Mon]

Unions are in a business also and need to make a profit.

Hmm, ya sure about that?

Union means that some pilots wants to form an uh, union to negotiate and stand up to managment if needs be.

I have worked for union and non-union carriers over the years and have seen both sides of the coin:
Eastern Metro, Evergreen, Kuwait, Tower Air, American.

And another 14 operators or so.

(Resume looks pretty bad)

Never seen much profit in the union business, except saving for the war chest.
Eastern did, but it drained pretty fast.
Then the rest of ALPA chipped in, then ther whole thing collapsed.

APA lost some 23 mill on the stupid sick-out.

Not much profit there?

Please explain about "Unions are in Business and needs to make a profit"

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I have to disagree here. You will not get any fancy lawyers with ALPA. More likely, you will get lawyers that finnished near the bottom of their class.

This is one of the most misinformed and vitriolic statements I have read to date on this forum. Our MEC recently hired a new Contract Administrator. 14 years of labor law experience and a BA from Brown University and JD from NYU. He is top notch.

-Neal

 

[pilotyip]

UAW expereince

CSY, from the Detroit Free Press, UAW laying off staff because of not making a profit. Membership down by nearly 50% in the last 20 years. Union is being selective on organizing new groups to avoid spending more money than could be generated by union dues. I assume this applies to all unions. ALPA will not represent pilots at small airlines, because of the negative cash flow from organizing a small group. Unions are business and they have to follow simple business practices of taking in more money than they spend, if they desire to continue existing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

CSY, from the Detroit Free Press, UAW laying off staff because of not making a profit. Membership down by nearly 50% in the last 20 years. Union is being selective on organizing new groups to avoid spending more money than could be generated by union dues. I assume this applies to all unions. ALPA will not represent pilots at small airlines, because of the negative cash flow from organizing a small group. Unions are business and they have to follow simple business practices of taking in more money than they spend, if they desire to continue existing.

Let's be free thinkers here.... Unions are in 'business' to support their members. They are not is busines to make a profit. See any AFL-CIO stock out there? Sure unions use sound business practices and investments to manage thier books...

Unions don't go for profit....

 

[CSY Mon]

Yeah, unions need to take in more money than they spend, otherwise they be out of "business", but they are still non-profit organisation...Yer donations is probably deductible on Federal Income taxes.

Jet Blue will probably vote for a union one day, in-house shop or otherwise as the cool-aide gets diluted with vinegear over time....

 

[pilotyip]

Unions are non-profits

OK I agree, profit may not have been the correct word, and yes they do not sell stock, but they pay rent, pay employees, and have six figure management salaries. If the money coming in does not equal the money going out they will merge, or go out of business. Unions make business decisions because of the need to balance books. They will not spend the money to organize a group of workers where it looks like they will not win. There has to widespread support for a union effort in order for a union to get the required number of votes. My belief is that number of votes does not exist at JB right now, and therefore a nationwide union will not attempt to organize that employee group.