jetBlue, I'm ready for a union

[Stifler's Mom]

Why do we need a union? We already have divisive crybaby complainers who can never be happy no matter what their circumstances are. Isn't that what a union is all about?

No, that's what Flightinfo.com is all about.

 

[jaxgus]

Not What My Lawyer Says

Someone should remind you that you dont have a contract. That is what Jumpseat knows and feels the need to remedy.

Hose,
I think you should change professions and become a lawyer since you're more skilled than mine. The agreement JetBlue pilots entered into with B6 is very much like ones used by corporate America. Just because we don't pay some fancy lawyers called ALPA to negotiate our contract doesn't mean we don't have one.
Reading the news at places like United, American, Delta and US Air their contracts seem to be worthless since their companies dump them every time they enter into Chap 11. Just because we are different, i.e. we don't pay someone to create a cumbersome beauracracy to create an illusion of collective bargaining, doesn't make us wrong. Ask the former pilots of TWA what their contract did for them, then again, ALPA did a great time protecting their jobs.

 

[sleepy]

Hose,
I think you should change professions and become a lawyer since you're more skilled than mine. The agreement JetBlue pilots entered into with B6 is very much like ones used by corporate America. Just because we don't pay some fancy lawyers called ALPA to negotiate our contract doesn't mean we don't have one.
Reading the news at places like United, American, Delta and US Air their contracts seem to be worthless since their companies dump them every time they enter into Chap 11. Just because we are different, i.e. we don't pay someone to create a cumbersome beauracracy to create an illusion of collective bargaining, doesn't make us wrong. Ask the former pilots of TWA what their contract did for them, then again, ALPA did a great time protecting their jobs.

I have to disagree here. You will not get any fancy lawyers with ALPA. More likely, you will get lawyers that finnished near the bottom of their class.

 

[AA717driver]

Read my history and see what unions have done to... er, I mean, for me.

SWAPA works because both the company and the pilots want it to work. If either side became too demanding, things would start going badly for everyone.

ALPA is busy working its way to being an all regional union.

I have always been a believer that you need a voice to relay the pilot's grievances to management before it gets out of hand. And, management needs to maintain an open and honest dialogue with that group.

Again, it comes back to the fact that greed on both sides will screw up a good deal.TC

 

[jaxgus]

Probably Right

I have to disagree here. You will not get any fancy lawyers with ALPA. More likely, you will get lawyers that finnished near the bottom of their class.

I bet they dress fancy though.

 

[flyfastinmy10]

Just my humble opinion and view from outside……but…………



Everyone outside of B6 wants a union and is unhappy about everything that affects the B6 pilots. Everyone has recommendations. Plenty of suggestions for a union and the type of union. Everyone wants to bad mouth this company.

I see a few B6 pilots complaining but if it were really that bad, they would have a union. Now the big question is why bring in a union? In this industry, what have unions done to help recently? There are currently very few airlines having any success. The business is changing and now if you don’t address the changing market, you will be out of business.

History has a way of repeating itself.

Look at B6. They have modeled their business in the likeness of SWA. Look at the history of SWA. At age 5 what is the comparison. The legacy carriers better make big changes now or they will be gone. The old airline business model is obsolete. I wish it weren’t so but it is. If you had the wherewithal to start an airline who would be your role model. United, Delta, US Airways or South West and jetBlue.

There are currently over 11,000 pilot applications on file at B6. The majority of applicants are from these legacy carriers. Some are furloughed and others have just had enough. There are currently many ex-legacy pilots at B6 and appear to be happy with management and tired of union letdowns.

My suggestion………….. If you’re at B6 drink the cool-aid. If you’re elsewhere talk to your union rep. Have him demand changes to make your company more profitable and a better place to work.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

I have always been a believer that you need a voice to relay the pilot's grievances to management before it gets out of hand. And, management needs to maintain an open and honest dialogue with that group.

Again, it comes back to the fact that greed on both sides will screw up a good deal.TC

Are you kidding? That's too complicated for it to ever work.

 

[TonyC]

Alright already...you win.....that loss of license was the second or third post he made. You know what, why don't you and Jumpseater talk unions together. I'm tired, got an early trip tomorrow, and need my sleep so I can abuse the mechanics and slap an FA or two.

Bye

Fatigue is a good way to avoid scrutiny and to avoid taking responsibilty for your words, I suppose.

You told Jumpseater to go get more information before he vents on FlightInfo.com, and you made a disparaging remark about FA's and mechanics. Since then, you have added nothing of substance to the discussion, and no explanation (other than the bogus attempt) for your smear of "team members."

I really expected more. I expected an apology for insulting the FA's and mechanics, and I expected you to tell us why a union is not the answer to Jumpseater's concerns. After all, you're more senior, perhaps older, and certainly wiser than Jumpseater, otherwise you wouldn't have piped up with the "hush up" in the first place, right?

You might ought to have that knee looked at.





.

 

[Floatplane]

Take your union and stick it where the sun don't shine!!!

I usually do not post on these sites, but I guess the union vs. non-union discussion has struck a nerve with me. First of all B6 is a non-union airline. It was when anybody applied to the airline, and hopefully will continue to be well into the future. Unions and legacy carriers attitudes are fine for them. But, B6 is different and is striving to be different. So if your not employed at B6 and you are already at or on furlough from a Union airline, go ahead and stay there. But please stop insisting that everybody must conform to your notion of what an airline pilot should do. If a union is right for you then by all means go to a union carrier.

As long as we are discussing the union vs. non-union topic, lets try and keep it out of the jumpseat. I am sick and tired of some old Legacy pilot giving me his rant about how B6 needs to get a union. All I am trying to do is get to work or get home. I don't need some political lecture of what a wonderful thing it would be if B6 would just get a union. I know all of the ups and downs of what a union could mean for B6. But the last thing I need to listen to is some dude giving me a hard time while just trying to commute. If that is the professional atmosphere a union brings to the table, then I will pass on being associated with one for now. Thanks!!!

B6 has the most open jumpseat policy in the business. Multiple jumpseaters, flight attendant jumpseaters, and extra cabin jumpseats if the passenger seats are full. I have never seen anyone given a hard time while trying to jumpseat on B6. So please lets keep the jumpseat non-political and professional for those of us that commute to and from work.

Thanks, I feel better now.

Cheers!!

 

[pilotyip]

Repeat from another thread

canyonblue posted this on the major interview thread last week. I think it would be of interest to those that feel a union is the answer to all problems.


The following is from this week's Plane Business Banter by Holly Hegeman.

Many of you are familiar with Vaughn Cordle. Cordle is not only a 777 Captain with United Airlines, he is also a CFA, and since last year has done financial analysis work as AirlineForecasts, LLC.

This week Vaughn checked in with us, and I thought he had a couple of interesting comments to pass along, including the fact that Delta Air Lines has been paying some bills with credit cards. Hmmmm.

"Over the next several quarters, I would anticipate that several legacy airlines will be bringing down domestic capacity. The driver to this action will be the need to maintain a certain level of unrestricted cash. Profitable pruning is one of the few options available for most and many will be forced to stem the gushing red ink in the domestic market. Our recent work suggests that cash-flow for the big six and seven LCCs will be inadequate by $3 to $5 billion in 2005 based on $35 to $45 oil. Oil could remain in the low to mid $40s in 2005 and may run up to $60 in the near term. A $10 swing in oil impacts the big six and seven LCCs by $3.2 billion, and this includes the benefits of the various fuel hedge programs.

Unrestricted cash will reach bankruptcy levels for NWAC, AWA, ATA, DAL, FRNT, and CAL if oil stays above $45 over the next 12 months. AMR has enough cash to last until the 3d or 4th quarter of 2006, but will still need to bring costs down an additional $500 to $800 million per year if capacity does not come out of the system. Updated earnings estimates are for the group to lose $4.8 billion this year and between $1.8 and $2.8b next.

Delta is on track to lose $1.8b, which excludes nonoperating charges. Delta is on the edge of bankruptcy, even if they get $1b from the pilots. ATA, USAir, and United are on the endangered species list and are at risk in terms of a chapter seven liquidation.

Liquidation is less likely for other airlines because they have - in relative terms - better balance sheets, smaller pension liabilities, and better margins. In solvency and liquidity terms, USAir and UAL are dead last.

Delta and NWAC are next in line, and Delta may file bankruptcy after November 18th when a debt exchange offer ends.

I'm of the opinion that Southwest will exercise a "leap frog" option and buy some used 737s to accelerate growth. They are buying market share with their low fares and are not earning their cost of capital. By growing much faster than planned, they can lower labor and non-labor unit costs and preempt the lower-cost competitors like JetBlue. They are the big winner when big money-losing airlines pull down capacity and fares firm up after the shakeout.

I spent a day with the National Aerospace Credit Managers Association this week and the feedback was rather sobering in terms of their assessment of the airline industry. Delta has been paying some bills with credit cards and has asked the suppliers to reduce costs by 10%. Suppliers are not happy and from what we understand, terms are tightening for most of the airlines.

Labor is in the driver seat in terms of whether or not United and US Air survives. Without additional concessions - in the 15% to 20% range - United will be facing liquidation. This is a reality that the unions and employees have yet to catch up with. Perhaps a deal could be worked out where labor gets some of the cuts back if oil falls to below $35. It's a war of attrition and if two big airlines liquidate, the other airlines will recover because pricing power will allow them to raise fares - at least in the short and perhaps intermediate term. This is why other airlines will not liquidate, with the exception of perhaps ATA. Domestic yields are plunging, fuel costs are spiking, and the economy is not expanding as fast as originally anticipated.

The magnitude of the structural shift down in average fares and the real costs of the DB plans has caught everyone by surprise. It's much worse than most know and the other shoe to drop will be the request for large additional pay concessions at United and several other airlines. (Editor's Note: That has now already happened.) United's ALPA has been telling pilots that exit financing is available...and it's a matter of whether or not United wanted their terms. This is wishful thinking and does not reflect reality. As usual, pilots and the unions are the last to know and tend to lack a balanced understanding of the situation. It appears that management and the unions are just now catching up with the real - as opposed to the rosy scenario ATSB loan application reality - reality of United's situation.

Most believe that we need to lose a carrier or two for the industry to regain health. United is one that is in serious trouble and the employees will face a choice between liquidation and lower costs. How the unions behave and what they say publicly will impact the company's risk profile and cost of exit financing. The open-ended question is whether or not current management can persuade the unions to accept the new reality, which is a function of today's and tomorrow's revenue environment.

The next question is whether or not current management can survive. Most would argue that shopping for a CEO that tells the unions what they want to hear is a bad idea. United is at the mercy of the capital markets and the next representative of shareholder capital will not be as labor-friendly as Mr. Tilton. We are in the final stages of a major industry shakeout. It will be quite traumatic for the employees who lose their jobs and for those that have to take sizable pay and benefit cuts. Those that survive will have to adapt to a more modest lifestyle if they are to continue to work in the airline industry."
__________________