Jetblue Fancies Itself A "Career" Airline

[linepilot]

No, what it means is that it makes you, (and all of us) look like entitled, greedy, pathetic whiners when you are in the top 10% of wage earners in the richest nation in the world and you are pissing and moaning like you are a starving African kid eating a small bowl of rice once a day with flies on his eyeballs.

It disengenuous.

There is nothing that says we can't vote in a union and fight for improvements, but if you cant live a very comfortable life on $100k plus a year, you have a serious problem and need to learn to manage your money better. Stop the bitching and vote in the union. Let things get better from there. But remember, there are about 20k plus people that would give their left nut to be where you are now.

F#####CKKK YOUUUUUU! you little putzz. Preaching like an upitty little know it all. F#cking 32 year old sage, telling us to stop complaining. I would love to throttle your a$$ on the picket line you little dweeb.

There are financial goals that we set when we go forward in life with careers and families and major adjustments to the "paradigm" are seriously bad news. Your whiny little apologies for corporate america are NOT WELCOME.

You need to tolerate the negative publicity and shut the f#ck up you pathetic little snot.

I came to work for an airline with promises that were never kept. Apparently, you CHOSE to work at a third tier carrier so you need to accept the angst and the complaining. Think of it as the COST OF DOING BUSINESS when you work for a suck ass, lying airline being guided by Ford&Harrison every step of the way.

Poor little baby doesn't like people talking bad about his chosen airline.

If YOU don't like unhappy pilots, then why don't YOU go work somewhere else. If you have the skills to work at Southwest, you won't have to tolerate negative comments. If you want to stay here, then suck it up princess.

 

[pilotpayne]

f#####ckkk youuuuuu! You little putzz. Preaching like an upitty little know it all. F#cking 32 year old sage, telling us to stop complaining. I would love to throttle your a$$ on the picket line you little dweeb.

There are financial goals that we set when we go forward in life with careers and families and major adjustments to the "paradigm" are seriously bad news. Your whiny little apologies for corporate america are not welcome.

You need to tolerate the negative publicity and shut the f#ck up you pathetic little snot.

I came to work for an airline with promises that were never kept. Apparently, you chose to work at a third tier carrier so you need to accept the angst and the complaining. Think of it as the cost of doing business when you work for a suck ass, lying airline being guided by ford&harrison every step of the way.

Poor little baby doesn't like people talking bad about his chosen airline.

If you don't like unhappy pilots, then why don't you go work somewhere else. If you have the skills to work at southwest, you won't have to tolerate negative comments. If you want to stay here, then suck it up princess.

wow......

 

[CapnVegetto]

Please "Captain",

You might want to take a look at inflation, the increase in college tuition, the increase in medical expenses, the decrease in true retirement plans.

I have no doubt you Dad did all those things, and did them well, but remember inflation, if he made 50K in the 1980's that, purchase power wise,requires quite a bit more today. Find an inflation calculator, crunch the numbers, it'll all make sense.

The average income for the middle class, while perhaps constant in actual dollar pay out, has been eaten up by expenses in other areas.

In the mid '90's, I was making $50K flying for a tiny 135 on demand operator, yet, an FO for a major airline in some cases, barely cracks the 100K mark, yes there is something wrong with that picture.

However, having said that, if you are happy, then who am I to tell you different, it is after all your life.

Here is a nice example: "What cost $52000 in 1994 would cost $75496.39 in 2010."

Why don't you ask YIP what his CA's make today, what their medical insurance cost are, how much they get in retirement?

Here's some numbers for you bud:

Average median income in 2012 according to USAToday is about $51K. So you are complaining about someone who makes DOUBLE the average median income in this country.

DOUBLE.

You are also saying that a 'major airline copilot' that makes DOUBLE what a charter pilot makes is a bad thing?

Can you even hear yourself?

You wonder why the general public thinks airline pilots are a bunch of whiny overpaid babies? Case and point.

I don't care what YIP's pilots make any more than I care what FedEx pilots make, simply because I would rather kill myself than work there. I don't care how much they pay. I would be beyond miserable flying in the middle of the night. I'd rather shovel cowpies at a stockyard. No offense to anyone that works there....really. It's just not for me. I HATE the back side of the clock. I want to be in bed.

 

[CapnVegetto]

First off, your number is way wrong, unless you want to include 250TT/50Multi pilots. It's no wonder we set up a pipeline for new pilots through UND/ERAU.

Fine by me. I could care less where they get people. You're missing the point, though. If the company hires 250TT and 50ME pilots, they will still do the job, same as a fresh out of college engineer will work for less than an experienced one. Welcome to the new American business model. I'm not saying it's right, or that I like it. But that's the way it is.

Secondly, last time the other majors were hiring, bigblue lost about 10% of the pilot group, they either chose recall or decided to be new hires elsewhere, even considering the odds. Rather telling.

Good for them. I'll be among those that leave if the opportunity presents itself. I'm not disagreeing with you on any of these points. I just don't like people with six figure incomes pissing and moaning to me about how horrible their life is. It makes me want to fu-cking puke.

If hired today at bigblue, based on retirements and projected fleet growth, it would take 15 years to make bottom reserve holding 190 CA. All while enjoying sub average comp/benefits, which are about to get even worse if the company has their way. Without a union, they will most certainly get their way!

That sounds about right. I knew that coming in. If I'm stuck as an FO for 20 years, so be it. That's life dude. Life is unfair. See age 65, economy tanking, blah blah blah. $hit happens. Deal with it. I know for a fact if I am stuck here as an FO for 30 years I'll be just fine because of the lifestyle and location I choose to live. If at any point in time this becomes unviable, I'll quit. I'll get another flying job or do something else altogether. I have the means to do so. If a better opportunity presents itself in the near future, or I have a chance to vote a union on property and improve things at B6, I'm on board with that.

I just don't like people pissing and moaning like they are impoverished dregs of society when they are pulling down six figures. See the recurring theme here?

Sadly, bigblue has, in my view, become a stepping stone airline, except for the very, very senior, but not surprisingly, I know a few of those looking to leave as well.

I do not disagree. See above.

Go take a look at the seniority calculator, it finally exist, and then tell me, that we don't, at the very least, need to get at least average or conversely that anyone below the 50th percentile, shouldn't hurry up and leave

I have. 110 retirements (approximately) in the next 15 years. Not good for anybody junior. As long as Barger is running the show, growth will be at a snail's pace.

So what? I came here, it's my responsibility to deal with it. I knew that coming in. I will leave the second something better comes along. But, if I get stuck here, I'll be fine. I'm OK with it. Same thing I keep saying. I don't actually disagree with you on hardly anything. Yes, compensation is below average. Yes, retirement and benefits are. My question to you is this: If it is so bad, what the hell are you doing here? Don't give me a sob story about how you were lied to, I know what the pay rates were when B6 first showed up. You were promised this and promised that, blah blah blah. If you bought their BS it's your problem. I came here knowing what the payrates are now, and assuming I would NEVER get a raise. I still assume that. I don't give a crap what management says, I don't believe a damn thing until I see it. That's the best way to live these days.

As Dr. House says: Everybody lies.

QUOTE]


End of line.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Nowhere in my posts have I bitched about my earnings here, so you're barking up the wrong tree there bud. And in my normal, non JB life I actually do something about the starving African orphans you reference. They have not one damned thing to do with my professional worth as a major airline pilot.

I also wasn't handed a damn thing on my way to this job. I earned every step of it, with the exception I'll acknowledge I was blessed to be born in the US. Your argument about the alleged 20k people that want my position is a complete non-sequitur.

OK 2K people, whatever. If they open up the app window, they'll get another 2K plus from current regional FO's and some captains. The point is, there are tons of people out there that would love to be where you are, and as long as that is the case, compensation will be low. Why do you think guys make $18K a month overseas doing the same job? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T FIND PEOPLE. It's Economics 101 man, supply and demand. I know a lot of people on here don't like to hear the truth, but, that's how it is. The only way you're going to get any kind of a pay raise NOT based on supply and demand is by voting in a union and forcing wages and benefits up.

Earlier I was NOT accusing you of being a whiner. I didn't see you whining at all. You advocate for improvements, but you don't go 'poor little me, I only make $150K. How in the hell am I supposed to make 3 alimonly payments and still cover my Porsche? Waaaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!

Those are the guys I have a problem with. Not you.

 

[CapnVegetto]

F#####CKKK YOUUUUUU! you little putzz. Preaching like an upitty little know it all. F#cking 32 year old sage, telling us to stop complaining. I would love to throttle your a$$ on the picket line you little dweeb.

What the ******************** are you going to do geezer, throw your diaper at me?

You can't and won't throttle $hit. You wouldn't even have the stones to talk to me IRL. Pretty much everybody on here thinks you're a waste of oxygen anyway. Idle threats from a pathetic little twat.

There are financial goals that we set when we go forward in life with careers and families and major adjustments to the "paradigm" are seriously bad news. Your whiny little apologies for corporate america are NOT WELCOME.

Your whining is not welcome. You can continue to live in your little fantasy world or join the rest of us in reality. You can set all the goals you want, but life changes every day. If you can't adjust to it, then it's your fcking problem. If you are as old as you say you are, I'd think you would have learned a thing or two by now. Of course, if you are half as asinine IRL as you are on here, then I suppose I am not surprised.

You need to tolerate the negative publicity and shut the f#ck up you pathetic little snot.

Tolerate the negative publicity? Oh you mean your senior captain $150K plus old a$$ complaining about how difficult your life is. I say again: Go fck yourself scooter. I don't have one ounce of sympathy for your sorry a$$ if you can't make it work. You hate everybody junior to you because our di-cks still work and we can sleep through the night without having to pi$$ 20 times. I get it. You hate the fact that I make less than half of what you make and I have a retirement savings going, no debt except for a mortgage, and have already been saving for my kids' college for 2 years (she's 3 now) I guess I'm just fcking smarter than you. I know you don't like it, and it burns your ego, but I stopped giving a rat's ass before I ever saw your first post.

Personal responsibility, chump. You should learn to deal with it.

I came to work for an airline with promises that were never kept. Apparently, you CHOSE to work at a third tier carrier so you need to accept the angst and the complaining. Think of it as the COST OF DOING BUSINESS when you work for a suck ass, lying airline being guided by Ford&Harrison every step of the way.

WAAAAAAHHHH!!!! WAAAAAAAHHHH!!! THE BAD BAD CORPORATE MANAGER LIED TO ME MOMMY!!! WAAAAHHHHH!!

You must have been living under a rock for the last 20 years. I bet you trust the government, too.

I accept complaining from people that deserve to be. I have many friends both in and out of aviation that are in REAL trouble, not the made up bitchy little 12 year old girl trouble that you claim to be in. THERE IS NOT A SINGLE ONE THAT WOULD NOT TRADE PLACES WITH YOU RIGHT NOW.

Once again, go fck yourself. You have NO IDEA what real hardship is. NONE. Go join the Peace Corps or something and get a little perspective. Go volunteer at a soup kitchen. Go to a church and spend a weekend helping some underpriviliged kids, you whiny piece of $hit. Then head back to your top 10% income job, your house, your kids, and your cars, and appreciate what the fck you have.


Poor little baby doesn't like people talking bad about his chosen airline.

You have no clue what you are talking about, as usual. I don't live under a rock either. I know B6 isn't the best. I am for a union, and I definitely would like to improve the conditions here. I don't mind advocation for improvements at all. I don't even mind a bit of badmouthing Barger and his crop of liars. I simply want to throw up my fcking lunch when I see someone senior with a huge (by everyone else's standards) income bitching and complaining like he's starving to death. I can't stand whiny fcking pieces of $hit like you that blame everybody else for their problems except for themselves and refuse to assume one shread of personal responsibility for their situation. THAT'S why you don't see me complaining about B6. It is because I made the choice to come here, and I am going to accept responsibilty for said choice. B6 is NOT A BAD PLACE TO WORK. We have our problems, sure. But I'm not in a damn Vietnamese sweatshop stringing together Air Jordans. This is still a better place to work that any regional, and quite a few national carriers. If you can't accept the reality of that, or refuse to, then you are an idiot.

If YOU don't like unhappy pilots, then why don't YOU go work somewhere else. If you have the skills to work at Southwest, you won't have to tolerate negative comments. If you want to stay here, then suck it up princess.

Suck it up princess? There's only one person here that whines and moans like a 7 year old little princess, and it ain't me.......princess.

End of line.

 

[CapnVegetto]

I am going to get banned after that one

 

[Dizel8]

I am going to get banned after that one

Do you deserve to be banned?

Can't see why.

 

[linepilot]

Communication (including whining and lies) is critical in any fight as anyone whose experienced a Ford&Harrison propaganda blitz knows.

CapnV thinks we're having a debate and that credibility MEANS something on an anonymous message board.

What's priceless is that she fails to recognize that conversations with fellow pilots might not be the goal of every person who posts here or that she might be helping to achieve those "other" goals. :laugh:

 

[CapnVegetto]

Do you deserve to be banned?

Can't see why.

Language, man.

 

[UpNDownGuy]

Communication (including whining and lies) is critical in any fight as anyone whose experienced a Ford&Harrison propaganda blitz knows.

CapnV thinks we're having a debate and that credibility MEANS something on an anonymous message board.

What's priceless is that she fails to recognize that conversations with fellow pilots might not be the goal of every person who posts here or that she might be helping to achieve those "other" goals. :laugh:

Do what I do:

This message is hidden because CapnVegetto is on your ignore list.

I got tired of listening to her sanctimonious squealing a while ago.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Communication (including whining and lies) is critical in any fight as anyone whose experienced a Ford&Harrison propaganda blitz knows.

CapnV thinks we're having a debate and that credibility MEANS something on an anonymous message board.

What's priceless is that she fails to recognize that conversations with fellow pilots might not be the goal of every person who posts here or that she might be helping to achieve those "other" goals. :laugh:

What ignorant drivel.

I understand, you don't like truth. You are seeking validation for your stupidity from other stupid people.

That makes sense. It makes you just like the rest of the sheep. I get it.

 

[Lake Alice]

Truth is jetblue lies and spins the truth. From the 2006-07 PCG 1 and 2, the 2008 PCRB and beyond. These are facts. It's nothing new and it's certainly no different than any other airline management. The problem is JetBlue pilots have put management on some sort of pedestal and if the say it then it must be true. This incomprehensible logic is what separates us front the rest of the industry.
While we all work hard to ensure the success of our airlines other pilot groups are rewarded by negotiating better pay, benefits and retirement. We, on the other hand, are rewarded with rhetoric on values and free pizza.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

The original pilot total compensation package as presented in my interview by Barger/Neeleman/Spain touted:

1. Pay that would parallel Southwest pilots.
2. Benefits that would parallel Southwest pilots.
3. Stock options and CSPP that would supplement our retirement.
4. Productive work rules that would provide opportunity.
5. A health plan that we would never have to worry about.
6. The freedom from arguing about anything. It was all just gonna be taken care of. We weren't going to need rules or complicated processes.

NONE of that manifested itself. We've been f#ckin the dog since 2003.

The ONLY thing that happened was a fast upgrade and a barrage of Ford & Harrison strategy and lies.

So in my best "big boy" words:

I will be a "net detractor" on a go forward basis.

Capiche?

LOL, when I got hired at American in 2001, they congratulated me on becoming a millionare! Of course that was before all the layoffs and they haven't HIRED one pilot since!!! Now look at where they are. You're foolish if you believed anything airline management (JBLU or any other) promised you! If you're nearly a 10-year Captain here and can't survive on $200+K a year, you need to seek financial help. I can truly say looking at my neighbors and families, we're the fortunate ones...

 

[$$$4nothin]

The original pilot total compensation package as presented in my interview by Barger/Neeleman/Spain touted:

1. Pay that would parallel Southwest pilots.
2. Benefits that would parallel Southwest pilots.
3. Stock options and CSPP that would supplement our retirement.
4. Productive work rules that would provide opportunity.
5. A health plan that we would never have to worry about.
6. The freedom from arguing about anything. It was all just gonna be taken care of. We weren't going to need rules or complicated processes.

NONE of that manifested itself. We've been f#ckin the dog since 2003.

The ONLY thing that happened was a fast upgrade and a barrage of Ford & Harrison strategy and lies.

So in my best "big boy" words:

I will be a "net detractor" on a go forward basis.

Capiche?

For all you guys that are just blowhards that do nothing but complain randomely and put smiley or frowny faces on you post. Read this. This is how you post facts that get a good point accros and give specific facts regarding why and how things need to change. Well done shades.

 

[Blue Dude]

If you're nearly a 10-year Captain here and can't survive on $200+K a year, you need to seek financial help.

It's not a matter of "surviving" on 200k a year. It's a matter of having Lucy yank the football away for years and finally having enough of it to call her out on it. Guys like you think that as long as we're "playing football", we're luckier than our friends and neighbors and should just shut up about broken promises, moving goalposts, and abdication of responsibility.

You are being manipulated. You are more interested in cashing checks today than holding accountable those who are shaping the path of your career tomorrow, and this is just how they want it. You are cheaper that way.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

It's not a matter of "surviving" on 200k a year. It's a matter of having Lucy yank the football away for years and finally having enough of it to call her out on it. Guys like you think that as long as we're "playing football", we're luckier than our friends and neighbors and should just shut up about broken promises, moving goalposts, and abdication of responsibility.

You are being manipulated. You are more interested in cashing checks today than holding accountable those who are shaping the path of your career tomorrow, and this is just how they want it. You are cheaper that way.

Manipulation is only posting a portion of what I stated and running with that football... You need to look around at the airline industry and see all the broken promises (contracts) and careers. If I had stayed at American, I'd still be looking for a job today--11 years later. The only person you can count on to take care of you, is you!!! Unless you're one of those who believe they're entitled to everything.

Maybe you'd be better off at a Legacy carrier, because everything that's promised there is kept!!! Look, you're at successful upstart. What was SWA like at their 10 year point? Once you get that perspective, maybe you'd stop asking for what a 40-80 year company has.

Thankfully, many of these Legacy carriers will be hiring in the next 5-10 years. Hopefully, those who believe that life is so bad here will find greener pastures there.

 

[Blue Dude]

Manipulation is only posting a portion of what I stated and running with that football... You need to look around at the airline industry and see all the broken promises (contracts) and careers. If I had stayed at American, I'd still be looking for a job today--11 years later. The only person you can count on to take care of you, is you!!! Unless you're one of those who believe they're entitled to everything.

As an aside, none of my partial quote misrepresented your position so your charge of manipulation is groundless. Nice try but your attempted tie-in doesn't make sense.

The current PEA arrangement is acceptable if trust is involved, which was established early on. But every other airline, SWA included, has mechanisms in place to maintain accountability. That they don't succeed perfectly doesn't mean their method is inferior to blind trust. There is no mechanism here, and at first arguably it wasn't needed. But this is no longer 2003 and our leadership has changed character to the extent that it's unrecognizable. Therefore we need our own mechanism to promote (not ensure) accountability. I don't rely on promises being kept, only that when statements are made that they're backed up with action and that past statements intended to be taken as promises of action can't be flushed down the memory hole every time there's a change of leadership. In short, we need our leaders to have the integrity to stand by their own statements even when it's inconvenient to do so. If you have a better method than a CBA I'm all ears.

 

[Ski-N-Fly]

Getting back to the title of this thread, if one looks at all the domestic major airlines, it wasn't any of their ELTs that gave those pilots their current compensation and benefits. It was their pilots who attained the above mentioned through their ability to negotiate a CBA. The ONLY way B6 pilots are going to come close to achieving proper compensation and benefits is through a CBA. This is why we need a union on the property yesterday.

So instead of insulting each other, thereby driving a bigger wedge into this pilot group (which BTW is exactly what the F&H disciples at B6 orchestrated), perhaps we should actually grow a pair, unite, organize, and make this place a real destination/career airline. Bottom line......it is up to this pilot group to make this place a career. Management will never do it for us. They prove it every day with more "takeaways."

 

[Dizel8]

F&H does indeed strive on division, the good part is, from what I have seen and heard, the anti union group seems to grow smaller every day.

As for BB, he still has the ability to return to AA, and I am certain that he would never give that up!