Jetblue EMB rates

[C77MD80]

As am I.


Back to the thread...Not sure if we will see much, if any, increase in the EMB rates. People keep referring back to when the JB pilots got the big A320 raise in 2001. I firmly believe that one of the biggest reasons for the raise was that their initial pay rates were very low (at the time, actually about 1/3 of the pay at United) and they wanted to up the rates to keep people from leaving.

JB is setting the benchmark now on the E190. Every other operator will now be offering rates similar to what JB pays. In a couple of years when there are more airlines operating the same type for similar rates, why would JB raise the rate? Certainly not for attrition reasons. Hopefully out of the goodness of their hearts.


GP

Thanks, this is what I was wondering about. Yes, I thought that the FO pay rates would (should) come up, but I also thought that the Captain rates should as well. So do the few buddies of mine that are at B6. Does no one else think they will take a bump? Is this the new 100 seat rate? 100k is a great wage but it doesn't add up. 85k sounds more reasonable the way you calculate but I just thought it woould go up like the a320 did,

Thanks for all of the honest responses.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Okay...caveat for the kool-aid drinkers: I'm happy here and enjoy the folks I work with. Believe me, I looked at going to UPS/FedEX (assuming I could get interview and subsequently hired) but from year 3 on it would take a while to catch up (variables considered -QOL/pay/PIC/equip). I think that there's been quite a few folks recently who've left for other places. I think that trend will continue.

The people who brag about making 150K here use some creative math. After talking with them, I realize that they often times work 20-ish days/month (nothing wrong if that's their program), use PTO and then pick up other trips, and/or include 401K/P.S./CSPP. Or they're super senior and can avg >7 hrs/day.

Once again...in order to not offend the thin-(blue)skinned folks on here it still is a good place to work. Like just about anywhere else, it's not perfect. Unfortunately for now, we'll just have to grin and bear it or go elsewhere.

Maj,

Good post. I had no idea my thread would turn into such a knock down drag out contest. Your defenitely not drinking any blue kool aid in my opinion.

As a strong unionist I would love to see a union especially ALPA at Jet Blue. I ran the ALPA organizing drive at Newark for CAL in 2001. ALPA's goal back then was to get all pilot groups represented by ALPA. After CAL was FEDEX and it stopped there. We were supposed to go to American and then South West. I know I will take shots on here for saying this but bringing JetBlue under the fold would be good of everyone in the industry including Jet Blue.

Before anyone takes shots at me I will say the following:

When I escorted Duane Woerth all around to the CAL and CALEXP Newark crew rooms I was quite impressed with him and ALPA National. ALPA Nationals recent direction after 9/11 has in my opinion been terrible. I no longer support Woerth and would like to see a change at the top and in the direction of our union.

However ALPA is still a great union and quite frankly it is what you make of it. We the membership are the union. At CAL since 9/11 we have elected inept, weak and spineless leaders and some who are criminals. However that was our own doing not ALPA nationals. Recently we have recalled key representatives and our MEC Officers have turned in their resignations. Hopefully we will elect strong leaders and take our union back.

With a strong unified pilot group combined with strong local leadership no union can compare to ALPA, especially not having a union at all. Jet Blue will unionize it's just a matter of time!

 

[WNFO]

I wouldn't mind seeing an in-house union someday at jetblue but not ALPA! Way too many self serving criminals in that orginization.

 

[wndshr]

Maj,

Good post. I had no idea my thread would turn into such a knock down drag out contest. Your defenitely not drinking any blue kool aid in my opinion.

As a strong unionist I would love to see a union especially ALPA at Jet Blue. I ran the ALPA organizing drive at Newark for CAL in 2001. ALPA's goal back then was to get all pilot groups represented by ALPA. After CAL was FEDEX and it stopped there. We were supposed to go to American and then South West. I know I will take shots on here for saying this but bringing JetBlue under the fold would be good of everyone in the industry including Jet Blue.

Before anyone takes shots at me I will say the following:

When I escorted Duane Woerth all around to the CAL and CALEXP Newark crew rooms I was quite impressed with him and ALPA National. ALPA Nationals recent direction after 9/11 has in my opinion been terrible. I no longer support Woerth and would like to see a change at the top and in the direction of our union.

However ALPA is still a great union and quite frankly it is what you make of it. We the membership are the union. At CAL since 9/11 we have elected inept, weak and spineless leaders and some who are criminals. However that was our own doing not ALPA nationals. Recently we have recalled key representatives and our MEC Officers have turned in their resignations. Hopefully we will elect strong leaders and take our union back.

With a strong unified pilot group combined with strong local leadership no union can compare to ALPA, especially not having a union at all. Jet Blue will unionize it's just a matter of time!

CAL737...

i agree that it is just a matter of time before the inevitable, but you have to remember that most of the civilians getting hired at B6 were prior ALPA. not many good memories there!

 

[Smoking Man]

I would imagine something in house,

As far as Alpa No, that Association has left a few memorys for a majority of the pilots.

 

[Fins Up]

I wouldn't mind seeing an in-house union someday at jetblue but not ALPA! Way too many self serving criminals in that orginization.

I don't know much about unions but from everything I read, I think they can hurt as much as help. Sure they'll fight for you to get higher wages but is that going to help when you get furloughed because operating costs are too high?

In my dream world, salary increases, and other benefits can be worked out rationally. (I can hear all you guys laughing at me already).

My opinion is - pay me a respectable wage and keep the company in good financial shape. I don't need to be a millionaire, I just want to fly planes around.

The end. Let the flames begin.

 

[That Guy]

My opinion is - pay me a respectable wage and keep the company in good financial shape. I don't need to be a millionaire, I just want to fly planes around.

The end. Let the flames begin.

Nothing wrong with that, no flame required.

I have also seen ALPA in action first hand, and want nothing to do with them ever again.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Maj,

Good post. I had no idea my thread would turn into such a knock down drag out contest. Your defenitely not drinking any blue kool aid in my opinion.

As a strong unionist I would love to see a union especially ALPA at Jet Blue. I ran the ALPA organizing drive at Newark for CAL in 2001. ALPA's goal back then was to get all pilot groups represented by ALPA. After CAL was FEDEX and it stopped there. We were supposed to go to American and then South West. I know I will take shots on here for saying this but bringing JetBlue under the fold would be good of everyone in the industry including Jet Blue.

Before anyone takes shots at me I will say the following:

When I escorted Duane Woerth all around to the CAL and CALEXP Newark crew rooms I was quite impressed with him and ALPA National. ALPA Nationals recent direction after 9/11 has in my opinion been terrible. I no longer support Woerth and would like to see a change at the top and in the direction of our union.

However ALPA is still a great union and quite frankly it is what you make of it. We the membership are the union. At CAL since 9/11 we have elected inept, weak and spineless leaders and some who are criminals. However that was our own doing not ALPA nationals. Recently we have recalled key representatives and our MEC Officers have turned in their resignations. Hopefully we will elect strong leaders and take our union back.

With a strong unified pilot group combined with strong local leadership no union can compare to ALPA, especially not having a union at all. Jet Blue will unionize it's just a matter of time!

You've got to be joking.
Is the Continental MEC Chairman still a "guy" (carefully worded!) that crossed the line back "in the day"? ALPA welcomes "scabs" if they will now pay their dues.
I was ALPA. ALPA is BIG business!
How much has DW taken in pay cuts? Perks?
ALPA had a great beginning, a great mandate for safety for the last 60-70 years...
The end of ALPA was not requiring "feeders" to be on the same seniority list.
How can you represent the RJs(Growth!) AND the Mainline (SCOPE!)?
Just like "The Who" said, "The new boss, SAME as the OLD boss!"
Exactly HOW is ALPA going to help JB "into the fold"?
I'm beginning to think JB needs a little help, but NOT from ALPA.

 

[AA717driver]

I wonder why ALPA wasn't able to bring AA into the fold quickly...

I mean, if you look at it, there are quite a few former ALPA members on the property already. You know, the former TWA and Eagle people. I'm sure they'll welcome ALPA with open arms...

Or maybe just arms. TC

 

[DIAMONDDD]

I'm sure they'll welcome ALPA with open arms...

Or maybe just arms. TC

Nope, I would say just "the finger". Same as if they come knocking at B6.

 

[A350]

ALPA is a dying institution.....they have no defense for what is/has happened to their membership.

They congratulate the IDE pilots for their effort to stave off the devil incarnate Ornstein, yet JO has hired thousands of new pilots while IDE has furloughed them all. Some victory.

Woerth was so helpful and professional when he was trying to get the pot of gold that is the FedEx and CAL dues paying members. He suceeded in getting into your wallets. What he did was keep ALPA and its huge rent/cost structure solvent post 9/11 after his dues rolls got nuked. His pay has INCREASED. Has yours?

A350

 

[radarlove]

I don't know much about unions but from everything I read, I think they can hurt as much as help.

You're assuming that pay rates are the only union benefit. Firming up scheduling rules (how's THAT going at JBLU?), instituting a formal grievance process (again, how's THAT going?) offering legal and medical help, I could go on, but there are a lot of benefits to pooling resouces for events that only some with go through, but any COULD go through.

 

[clickclickboom]

Alpa Pay

You're assuming that pay rates are the only union benefit. Firming up scheduling rules (how's THAT going at JBLU?), instituting a formal grievance process (again, how's THAT going?) offering legal and medical help, I could go on, but there are a lot of benefits to pooling resouces for events that only some with go through, but any COULD go through.

Can someone please post the salary schedule for ALPA officers? The director or whatever they are called makes well over $500,000 with junior officers making $300k+ Hell even the damn secretary of the secretary makes $200,000 a year..

A scam in my opinion any way you look at it..

 

[RiddleEagle18]

whats wrong with each airline representing themselves. Honestly how can ALPA be effective trying to represent the bigs and the regionals. Some of you may argue that the MEC are seperate but come one something obviously isnt working. They need seperate unions with only very loose affiliations for national lobbying powers. If im not mistaken UPS SWAPA and Air Trans union have something similar to this already set up? What do you guys think?

 

[MJG]

What do you guys think?

Hey look, a Riddle puke...... and he thinks he knows something about union's already, boy they're smart down there.....

 

[RiddleEagle18]

yea cause riddle students are stupid... just suggesting some things. why do people seem to think because someone is younger they don't know anything about a certain subject? Maybe I have parents, uncles that never shut up about this stuff. Maybe iv'e been exposed to it my whole life so iv'e probably dealt with it longer than you. Maybe I watch the industry very closely and know the history? This whole board is just people putting down others without even thinking about opions. We can't even have good debates anymore.

 

[MJG]

Well son with a whole 3 posts, having registered yourself within the last week, how many "good debates" on flightinfo have you been a part of lately ??

You can't honestly come on here, with 300 hours and a CFI and expect to be taken seriously. At least not by me. I suppose I could have just let it go but I thought it was just a little brash on your part. In fact I was somewhat offended by the fact that someone like yourself would have the nuts to say that ALPA obviously isn't working.

I can say for a fact that ALPA is working very well at my airline. Is it perfect, no, nothing ever is. But we've come a long way with ALPA in the last several years and I take offense to your ignorant statement.

BTW, have you ever walked a picket line, out in the cold, all the while trying to support a family that depends on your income ?? I still have boxes of picket signs in my basement from the last time I did.

Come back and tell the rest of us how it is when you actually know what you are talking about.

 

[RiddleEagle18]

im not saying that alpa needs to disappear im just saying maybe they are representing to many groups with conflicting issues? It was already mentioned in this thread that how can you represent majors with scopes and regionals who want to expand flying. What im proposing is independent representation which might be a whole lot better.

 

[Mr Hat]

I'll make a prediction....ALPA will not be Jetblue's union. If anything, they'll end up with an in house union. I won't go as far as to say that it'll never happen, Maybe someday but not today.

Why is it that the only airline to do it right with respect to EMB's flying on the same list as the A320 is a non-union airline. Chain of events? ALPA dropped the ball and started this downward spiral when they allowed 145's and CL-65's to be flown at the regionals. Dumb move. Read that artical about "Pay to Play" in this months ALPA magazine.....Too little too late. ALPA will continue to fail until it gets itself AHEAD of managements tactic of pitting different pilot groups against eachother....right now they are about 5 years behind the times and have no effective planning on how to deal with the future. ALPA is what you make of it on the local level. My MEC is very good and I will follow them anywhere. National is a mess, they don't know what to do and they got their heads in the sand. ALPA came about because air-mail pilots were dying (safety) and because they were undercutting themselves, in fierce competition with eachother and generally degrading the profession in the process. Looks to me like we've come full circle.

 

[TexaSWA]

Well son with a whole 3 posts, having registered yourself within the last week, how many "good debates" on flightinfo have you been a part of lately ??

You can't honestly come on here, with 300 hours and a CFI and expect to be taken seriously. At least not by me. I suppose I could have just let it go but I thought it was just a little brash on your part. In fact I was somewhat offended by the fact that someone like yourself would have the nuts to say that ALPA obviously isn't working.

I can say for a fact that ALPA is working very well at my airline. Is it perfect, no, nothing ever is. But we've come a long way with ALPA in the last several years and I take offense to your ignorant statement.

BTW, have you ever walked a picket line, out in the cold, all the while trying to support a family that depends on your income ?? I still have boxes of picket signs in my basement from the last time I did.

Come back and tell the rest of us how it is when you actually know what you are talking about.

I think he gets it just fine. Representing majors and their respective regional subsidiaries is a conflict of interest.

 

[wndshr]

You're assuming that pay rates are the only union benefit. Firming up scheduling rules (how's THAT going at JBLU?), instituting a formal grievance process (again, how's THAT going?) offering legal and medical help, I could go on, but there are a lot of benefits to pooling resouces for events that only some with go through, but any COULD go through.

I might be naive...maybe others in the industry can add their experiences...but having been with many alpa carriers...my schedule has been more productive at b6 since day 1 off reserve...maybe other carriers are doing better than 6 hours a day?

 

[That Guy]

You're assuming that pay rates are the only union benefit. Firming up scheduling rules (how's THAT going at JBLU?), instituting a formal grievance process (again, how's THAT going?) offering legal and medical help, I could go on, but there are a lot of benefits to pooling resouces for events that only some with go through, but any COULD go through.

Funny, I compared notes with some friends who are at JBLU, and told them about some things that happened at my previous airline that had ALPA. They're doing better with scheduling and 'grievances' than we ever did with ALPA on our property. Of course, my previous carrier could have been much worse without the union, but if there isn't a need for one, why bother? Obviously, the JBLU pilots are happy without one so far.

For the most part, my friend's seem to think their relationship with management is a mutually agreeable and productive one, whereas ours (at my old ALPA carrier) was hostile and unproductive.

Most of my friends at JBLU have come from ALPA carriers, and every single one of them said they would never want ALPA representation, but something more along the lines of SWAPA, should it come to that.

To each his or her own, I guess.

-TG

 

[V2+10]

I find it humorous that the vast majority of folks that actually want ALPA at B6 don't even work there!! Share the misery I suppose.

V2

 

[RJ_Driver]

Well son with a whole 3 posts, having registered yourself within the last week, how many "good debates" on flightinfo have you been a part of lately ??

You can't honestly come on here, with 300 hours and a CFI and expect to be taken seriously. At least not by me. I suppose I could have just let it go but I thought it was just a little brash on your part. In fact I was somewhat offended by the fact that someone like yourself would have the nuts to say that ALPA obviously isn't working.

I can say for a fact that ALPA is working very well at my airline. Is it perfect, no, nothing ever is. But we've come a long way with ALPA in the last several years and I take offense to your ignorant statement.

BTW, have you ever walked a picket line, out in the cold, all the while trying to support a family that depends on your income ?? I still have boxes of picket signs in my basement from the last time I did.

Come back and tell the rest of us how it is when you actually know what you are talking about.

Get your private in a 75, have ya?
Shut it pal... everyone here has a voice...
EWR 737 F/O

 

[RJ_Driver]

MJG...
You're probably an a$$ in the cockpit too, not just the forums.

 

[PHXFLYR]

I'll make a prediction....ALPA will not be Jetblue's union. If anything, they'll end up with an in house union. I won't go as far as to say that it'll never happen, Maybe someday but not today.

Why is it that the only airline to do it right with respect to EMB's flying on the same list as the A320 is a non-union airline. Chain of events? ALPA dropped the ball and started this downward spiral when they allowed 145's and CL-65's to be flown at the regionals. Dumb move. Read that artical about "Pay to Play" in this months ALPA magazine.....Too little too late. ALPA will continue to fail until it gets itself AHEAD of managements tactic of pitting different pilot groups against eachother....right now they are about 5 years behind the times and have no effective planning on how to deal with the future. ALPA is what you make of it on the local level. My MEC is very good and I will follow them anywhere. National is a mess, they don't know what to do and they got their heads in the sand. ALPA came about because air-mail pilots were dying (safety) and because they were undercutting themselves, in fierce competition with eachother and generally degrading the profession in the process. Looks to me like we've come full circle.

Good post, Mr Hat . Spot on summation of ALPA National. Until they learn to become pro-active rather than re active,they will never be taken seriously by either management or the vast majority of the pilots they claim to represent."
PHXFLYR

 

[BluDevAv8r]

MJG...
You're probably an a$$ in the cockpit too, not just the forums.

Everyone here definitely has a voice but MJG is no "a$$," either in the cockpit or on here in my opinion. He's a great guy (frustrated perhaps but aren't we all?) and has worked hard for the XJT pilots...doing a lot of SPC work during our contract negotiations process. Perhaps he spoke his true mind about the 300 hour CFI but I can't say I completely disagree with him. It is easy to comment from the outside based on discussions with people and internet message boards but until you've "been there, done that," it is hard to fully appreciate the issues. 300 hour CFI's comments about conflicts of interest are flawed and all too common from many on here who are upset with their own local situation and place blame on the easiest target. ALPA isn't perfect but until people realize that it is a pilot-driven organization from the local level, people are always going to have misguided views on the issue and unrealistic expectations.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I might be naive...maybe others in the industry can add their experiences...but having been with many alpa carriers...my schedule has been more productive at b6 since day 1 off reserve...maybe other carriers are doing better than 6 hours a day?

Your schedule is very productive at JB by virtue of the kind of flying that you guys do in the 320. Most of it is long-haul transcons or NY-FL flying with a few shorter routes thrown in for good measure (but going away soon as the 190 gets implemented). When you average 13 hours per day per aircraft of utilization, pilot schedules HAVE to be productive...it is the only way to do it...it is great for the company and the pilot group.

What some were saying as far as scheduling rules aren't necessarily productivity enhancements but rather - protections against certain other issues. For example, can you guys be scheduled for a PC immediately following your vacation or do you need to be given a few days between your vacation and your sim slot? We built that provision into the XJT contract to allow some time to study since clearly none of us wants to be studying our manuals while on vacation in Cabo.

By the way, my schedule averages just over 6 hours per day at XJT...but I trip trade voraciously for productive trips and tend to do day trips and 2-day trips. If I only did 4-day trips, there is no way I could see 6 hours per day on average out of EWR.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I think he gets it just fine. Representing majors and their respective regional subsidiaries is a conflict of interest.

No, it really isn't...since the CAL MEC doesn't represent me...nor does the DAL MEC...nor does the NWA MEC. My own MEC at XJT represents me.

-Neal

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Woerth was so helpful and professional when he was trying to get the pot of gold that is the FedEx and CAL dues paying members. He suceeded in getting into your wallets. What he did was keep ALPA and its huge rent/cost structure solvent post 9/11 after his dues rolls got nuked. His pay has INCREASED. Has yours?

A350

His pay has increased? Can you please prove that? I'm not going to defend the guy's salary on here (because it is a lose/lose proposition for me) but I will say that his pay is based off of the highest paying positions on the various ALPA properties. Well, in case you were living in a box 6 feet under the past few years you would know that all network carriers have taken a haircut and de facto, so has DW's salary structure. Does he get other benefits and perks? Yep...that is his job. To be a politician. If you think his salary is high, go look up the head of the National Teachers Union. You will be amazed at what that educator makes per year.

-Neal