JetBlue class dates

[Splert]

You're doing an awesome job of convincing new hires to join your side.

Oh great another pilot that needs to be convinced by others that management is NOT on 'your side'.

Please stay at SkyWest, Inc.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The facts speak for themselves. If you need to be stroked to act in your own best interest, then you're not going to find much sympathy.

I don't need to be stroked. I just don't like the attitude. If you want to convince people that you are correct, you won't do it with intimidation. Like it or not, you seem from the outside to be in a PR war with management. Being jerks, well, that doesn't help your cause. That's all I'm saying.

I don't have a position yet. If I'm hired, I'll make a decision at that time based on a more educated assessment, and vote accordingly.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Oh great another pilot that needs to be convinced by others that management is NOT on 'your side'.

Please stay at SkyWest, Inc.

I never said that. I just said that he wasn't winning any hearts and minds by being a jerk. It's obvious you guys have some issues to work through with management. I don't think it's appropriate for an outsider (even one in the pool) to make a decision about which way they would vote until they've been there and lived it.

I'm not certain why that is so controversial.

 

[geardown]

The problem is that once you give up your current position, you'll have no choice but to "live it".
With our healthcare , if you have a healthy child, you will be paying $7,000-$10,000 out of your own pocket just for the delivery.

If you get hurt or your wife gets sick in November of 2013 and you require hospitalization or surgery and then have a complication in January of 2014 or need continuing care, you will pay $14,000+ in 2013 and then $14,000 + again in 2014.
$28,000 in just a few short months. I hope you have that laying around in your cash drawer or you may find yourself facing personal bankruptcy, losing your house, or your retirement trying to dig out.

The point is, please think long and hard about the risk you are going to expose yourself and your family to by going to JetBlue. I wouldn't even consider it of I were making that choice today. This place is not worth it.

 

[StarChecker]

I don't think it's appropriate for an outsider (even one in the pool) to make a decision about which way they would vote until they've been there and lived it.

I'm not certain why that is so controversial.

Excellent point. Just remember, the burden of proof is with the company to show you you don't need a CBA. Not the other way around.

Another thing to remember....

I'm here almost 6 years, and I won't break 1000 until 2029. That's over TWENTY YEARS.....just to break 1000. So I'll wait 17 more years just to be a junior A320 Captain flying Carribean red-eye turns.

Just something else to ponder about coming to JetBlue. Yes, it's better than a craphole regional. Even if we made top dollar and had the best retirement/insurance in the business...I'd have my stuff at FedEx. We now have the worst insurance in the entire industry and still the worst retirement.

Just a few thoughts....

 

[ASA_Aviator]

The problem is that once you give up your current position, you'll have no choice but to "live it".
With our healthcare , if you have a healthy child, you will be paying $7,000-$10,000 out of your own pocket just for the delivery.

If you get hurt or your wife gets sick in November of 2013 and you require hospitalization or surgery and then have a complication in January of 2014 or need continuing care, you will pay $14,000+ in 2013 and then $14,000 + again in 2014.
$28,000 in just a few short months. I hope you have that laying around in your cash drawer or you may find yourself facing personal bankruptcy, losing your house, or your retirement trying to dig out.

The point is, please think long and hard about the risk you are going to expose yourself and your family to by going to JetBlue. I wouldn't even consider it of I were making that choice today. This place is not worth it.

I hear you. I'm on my wife's medical, so that isn't a risk in my case. That being said, the medical at my regional sucks too, so a transition there wouldn't increase my risk.

Naturally, benefits should improve when you leave the regionals. I'm not arguing that. Just saying in my case it isn't a factor for my decision to leave.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

Excellent point. Just remember, the burden of proof is with the company to show you you don't need a CBA. Not the other way around.

Another thing to remember....

I'm here almost 6 years, and I won't break 1000 until 2029. That's over TWENTY YEARS.....just to break 1000. So I'll wait 17 more years just to be a junior A320 Captain flying Carribean red-eye turns.

Just something else to ponder about coming to JetBlue. Yes, it's better than a craphole regional. Even if we made top dollar and had the best retirement/insurance in the business...I'd have my stuff at FedEx. We now have the worst insurance in the entire industry and still the worst retirement.

Just a few thoughts....

I'm going in with my eyes wide open. I think most in the pool are 100% aware of the risks, and think that things will either improve over time, or they will depart B6 when others hire.

 

[Smarta$$]

Excellent point. Just remember, the burden of proof is with the company to show you you don't need a CBA. Not the other way around.

Another thing to remember....

I'm here almost 6 years, and I won't break 1000 until 2029. That's over TWENTY YEARS.....just to break 1000. So I'll wait 17 more years just to be a junior A320 Captain flying Carribean red-eye turns.

Just something else to ponder about coming to JetBlue. Yes, it's better than a craphole regional. Even if we made top dollar and had the best retirement/insurance in the business...I'd have my stuff at FedEx. We now have the worst insurance in the entire industry and still the worst retirement.

Just a few thoughts....

So wait, in 2029 seniority number 1000 will be a junior airbus captain doing redeye turns?

 

[kellwolf]

The problem is that once you give up your current position, you'll have no choice but to "live it".
With our healthcare , if you have a healthy child, you will be paying $7,000-$10,000 out of your own pocket just for the delivery.

If you get hurt or your wife gets sick in November of 2013 and you require hospitalization or surgery and then have a complication in January of 2014 or need continuing care, you will pay $14,000+ in 2013 and then $14,000 + again in 2014.
$28,000 in just a few short months. I hope you have that laying around in your cash drawer or you may find yourself facing personal bankruptcy, losing your house, or your retirement trying to dig out.

The point is, please think long and hard about the risk you are going to expose yourself and your family to by going to JetBlue. I wouldn't even consider it of I were making that choice today. This place is not worth it.

While I agree the max out of pocket mins are out of control, calendar year deductibles are pretty much standard in the health care industry. Even if you're max out of pocket was $5,000 a year, you'd still be looking at $10,000 in a those same few short months. Just trying to make sure we're not skewing the facts too much. $10,000 is still a decent chunk of change, but it's a lot less than $28,000.

Honestly, I think if everyone sticks to the facts on the healthcare as well as pros and cons of having a CBA and steers clear of the emotional responses (which I see more than facts), the union vote would take care of itself. I'll likely be right in the middle of a union vote if/when it comes up this time. I watched the last one from the sidelines, and it was a PR nightmare. Too many people got wrapped up in the "If you don't see it, you're stupid" rhetoric, and I think that's what killed the vote. Hell, I saw the same thing on a contract vote at my current airline.

 

[StarChecker]

So wait, in 2029 seniority number 1000 will be a junior airbus captain doing redeye turns?

Nope. I'll be a line holding 330 Captain with layovers in Paris...

I don't believe any growth projections when planning my career. Even with 4000 pilots....1000 is a fairly junior line holder.

 

[$$$4nothin]

The problem is that once you give up your current position, you'll have no choice but to "live it".
With our healthcare , if you have a healthy child, you will be paying $7,000-$10,000 out of your own pocket just for the delivery.

If you get hurt or your wife gets sick in November of 2013 and you require hospitalization or surgery and then have a complication in January of 2014 or need continuing care, you will pay $14,000+ in 2013 and then $14,000 + again in 2014.
$28,000 in just a few short months. I hope you have that laying around in your cash drawer or you may find yourself facing personal bankruptcy, losing your house, or your retirement trying to dig out.

The point is, please think long and hard about the risk you are going to expose yourself and your family to by going to JetBlue. I wouldn't even consider it of I were making that choice today. This place is not worth it.

Ok man. I am as pissed as you are. I want a CBA as much as you as well. Lets just use the facts here and stop spinning info like the company does. The most a perfectly healthy child berth will cost is closer to $5600. This is a little off from $7000-$10,000. Also the max out of pocket includeing deductible is going to be just a bit less than $11,500/yr and not $14,000. $11,323 is the number the PVC and the company actually agreed on yesterday at the road show if every member of your family has a serious event. So when it comes down to brass tacks you better have an extra $8600/yr health care emergency fund to cover yourself and your family. So yes $8600 in November then another $8600 in Jannuary makes a $17,200 emergency fund seem pretty neccesary.

Now you may be adding in the STD/LTD to your numbers which are completely valid, but as this is not the conversation we are having lets stick to the facts based on the conversation we are having.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Another thing to remember....

I'm here almost 6 years, and I won't break 1000 until 2029. That's over TWENTY YEARS.....just to break 1000. So I'll wait 17 more years just to be a junior A320 Captain flying Carribean red-eye turns.
Just a few thoughts....

I have been looking through the most recent bids. I have figured out the most junior 190 capt. went to about seniority number 1750. I can't figure out what the most junior 320 captain went to though. Willing to to bet it is close to 1000 though. Maybe you can help us all out with this. Saying it will take 17 more years to upgrade to the BUS is just another spin, just like management does. Will you hold weekends off with no redeyes; no; but that will be a choice for you to make. If you don't like re-eyes bid the 190. Yes if there is no growth, attrition (very unlikely), no loss of medicals, no injuries, no military leave, this might be the case but come on man. I am tired of spins from both sides. Getting a little old.
Based on the number of upgrades awarded this year (65 between both fleets). If this stays the same (which based on attrition and aircraft orders it will be the same or most likely get better) my upgrade is looking at 8 years from the day I was hired. Granted that is to the 190 and not the 320, but that is still a far cry from the 23 years you are claiming to a junior 320 captain. Just trying to put as much fact as possible into the conversation and stay away from any spin.

 

[geardown]

Family Blue Plan
Premium - ***** ***** $384/mo
Deductible- *****$ 2,600
Max O/P- ***** $7,000
20% coinsurance = $35,000 or more to reach $7,000 out of pocket max.

$384 (x 12)= $4,608
$4,608+$2,600+$7,000= $14,208

This resets to zero January 1 of each year and you start all over.

If you are hospitalized for 4 days in November of 2013 and then again on January 1, 2014 and even have a minor procedure, the bill per visit easily could exceed $35,000/4 days.

For 2013+2014 you would spend*****
$28,416 total

Secondly, an normal child birth cost between $9,000 & $14,000
a C section $14,000-$25,000

4208+2600+(9000 to 25,000-2,600 x20% (1,280-4,480)=$ 8,488-$11,688 for delivery.

 

[kellwolf]

Family Blue Plan
Premium - ***** ***** $384/mo
Deductible- *****$ 2,600
Max O/P- ***** $7,000
20% coinsurance = $35,000 or more to reach $7,000 out of pocket max.

$384 (x 12)= $4,608
$4,608+$2,600+$7,000= $14,208

Again, I'm not saying these are acceptable, but let's stick to facts. First, the deductible in insurance plans counts towards your max out of pocket, therefore you would NOT need to spend $35k to hit the MooP. After the deductible, you have $4,400 left, so you'd need to spend $22k to hit the $7000 MooP. With the Blue Plan, your prescriptions also count towards your deductible and the MooP, hence the reason the premiums are higher than the Green Plan, I would imagine. So, that's more that you could count into it. Sadly, they don't say how much prescriptions cost under the Blue Plan. Looks like it's some kind of formulary set up, which can be good or bad.

This resets to zero January 1 of each year and you start all over.

Again, you're gonna be hard pressed to find ANY insurance plan that DOESN'T do this. My deductible on my current plan is $400. I had to pay $800 in a two month period thanks to my kid having a hospital stay in December of 06 and in January of 07. This isn't jetBlue or management trying to screw people over, it's how insurance companies work.

Not saying these plans are to the level they should be at this point in our careers, but we need to keep the facts straight to make credible arguments.

 

[JJthejetplane]

Again, I'm not saying these are acceptable, but let's stick to facts. First, the deductible in insurance plans counts towards your max out of pocket, therefore you would NOT need to spend $35k to hit the MooP. After the deductible, you have $4,400 left, so you'd need to spend $22k to hit the $7000 MooP. With the Blue Plan, your prescriptions also count towards your deductible and the MooP, hence the reason the premiums are higher than the Green Plan, I would imagine. So, that's more that you could count into it. Sadly, they don't say how much prescriptions cost under the Blue Plan. Looks like it's some kind of formulary set up, which can be good or bad.



Again, you're gonna be hard pressed to find ANY insurance plan that DOESN'T do this. My deductible on my current plan is $400. I had to pay $800 in a two month period thanks to my kid having a hospital stay in December of 06 and in January of 07. This isn't jetBlue or management trying to screw people over, it's how insurance companies work.

Not saying these plans are to the level they should be at this point in our careers, but we need to keep the facts straight to make credible arguments.

The deductible does NOT count towards the out of pocket maximum! Also, although the Blue plan prescriptions count for the deductible, that is NOT a benefit. That just means that you are footing the entire bill for prescriptions. The Green plan has a prescription benefit where you are limited on how much you pay for prescriptions. The orange plan has the best prescription benefit, but still haven't found a scenario where that plan would be best.

The Blue plan is more expensive because the money contributed by the company goes into an HSA which then belongs to the crewmember and the company cannot take that money back. On the green plan, the company contributes the seed money and healthy rewards money to a HRA, which is for the employee to use and accumulate while still working at JetBlue, but the company gets any unused money back when the crewmember leaves the plan.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

Again, I'm not saying these are acceptable, but let's stick to facts. First, the deductible in insurance plans counts towards your max out of pocket, therefore you would NOT need to spend $35k to hit the MooP. After the deductible, you have $4,400 left, so you'd need to spend $22k to hit the $7000 MooP. With the Blue Plan, your prescriptions also count towards your deductible and the MooP, hence the reason the premiums are higher than the Green Plan, I would imagine. So, that's more that you could count into it. Sadly, they don't say how much prescriptions cost under the Blue Plan. Looks like it's some kind of formulary set up, which can be good or bad.



Again, you're gonna be hard pressed to find ANY insurance plan that DOESN'T do this. My deductible on my current plan is $400. I had to pay $800 in a two month period thanks to my kid having a hospital stay in December of 06 and in January of 07. This isn't jetBlue or management trying to screw people over, it's how insurance companies work.

Not saying these plans are to the level they should be at this point in our careers, but we need to keep the facts straight to make credible arguments.

like the other guy said:

The deductible does NOT count towards the out of pocket maximum!

That's why it doesn't say out of pocket maximum. It says coinsurance.

 

[kellwolf]

If that's the case, then that's a completely different insurance than I've ever had, including the UHC health care I had a couple of years back. The insurance plans I had at SWA (ramper), Disney, Sea World, and my current airline, the deductible counted towards the MooP. I even just checked to see on my current plan, and yeah. My MooP and my deductible met to date are the same to the penny.

I haven't seen the actual fine print on the Blue/Green/Orange plans. All I have is the PDF that was up for a few hours. If you guys have the fine print, I'd love to see it.


Edit: Nevermind. I see where I screwed up. It DOES say "Coinsurance maximum." I was assuming that it was a total max out of pocket. That is pretty damn screwed up.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

If that's the case, then that's a completely different insurance than I've ever had, including the UHC health care I had a couple of years back. The insurance plans I had at SWA (ramper), Disney, Sea World, and my current airline, the deductible counted towards the MooP. I even just checked to see on my current plan, and yeah. My MooP and my deductible met to date are the same to the penny.

I haven't seen the actual fine print on the Blue/Green/Orange plans. All I have is the PDF that was up for a few hours. If you guys have the fine print, I'd love to see it.

The other poster was incorrect in using the term Max out of Pocket as JetBlue got rid of that term and is using Coinsurance. The result is that you're out the deductible plus the $7K coinsurance before JB pays 100%

 

[JBPA]

If that's the case, then that's a completely different insurance than I've ever had, including the UHC health care I had a couple of years back. The insurance plans I had at SWA (ramper), Disney, Sea World, and my current airline, the deductible counted towards the MooP. I even just checked to see on my current plan, and yeah. My MooP and my deductible met to date are the same to the penny.

I haven't seen the actual fine print on the Blue/Green/Orange plans. All I have is the PDF that was up for a few hours. If you guys have the fine print, I'd love to see it.

Welcome to JetBlue. We're contrarian to just about everything you've known or had at other airlines. And by contrary I mean mostly bad. Not all, just mostly.

We'd show you the fine print but JB doesn't let us look at those pesky details. They tell us everything we need to know.

[end sarcasm]
In the meantime, I suggest you take a look at http://lifesnotbetterinblue.com/ and http://www.bluetruthpilots.com/. Great info on both sites.

 

[JJthejetplane]

The other poster was incorrect in using the term Max out of Pocket as JetBlue got rid of that term and is using Coinsurance. The result is that you're out the deductible plus the $7K coinsurance before JB pays 100%

You are correct in the terminology JetBlue is using, and it is a little more clear when using coinsurance maximum instead of out of pocket. Most (but not all) insurance plans use the term "maximum out of pocket expense" to mean after the deductible has been met. I have been in the health insurance industry part-time for over 15 years so old habits and terminology are hard to break. But, I can certainly see why that is confusing, and that is why insurance companies love to use the term as they do. It makes you think you are getting a better deal than you really are.

 

[Lake Alice]

This is my favorite.

What Jetblue is telling you is we will screw your health care because, well, we can.

Welcome to the continuation and degradation under the direct relationship

As stated before every group working on the health care was forced to sign NDA's. The PVC was not allowed to discuss the issue with the retirement and insurance committee. Jetblue controls the facts because it controls the message. The truth is rarely allowed to escape.

Thank you http://lifesnotbetterinblue.com

 

[JJthejetplane]

. . . but, just about a week ago DB in his JTTP said the new insurance was because of the excessive excise tax we would have to pay under the Affordable Care Act if we didn't take action?!?!?! I wish they could at least be consistent with their propaganda.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

You are correct in the terminology JetBlue is using, and it is a little more clear when using coinsurance maximum instead of out of pocket. Most (but not all) insurance plans use the term "maximum out of pocket expense" to mean after the deductible has been met. I have been in the health insurance industry part-time for over 15 years so old habits and terminology are hard to break. But, I can certainly see why that is confusing, and that is why insurance companies love to use the term as they do. It makes you think you are getting a better deal than you really are.

It's a sh!t sandwich either way. We had a baby this year (normal delivery) and just the delivery (hospital+doctor+anesthesiologist) was billed at $40,000. It was knocked down to $22500 by the insurance company, but once you add in all the doctor visits, ultrasounds, and a couple specialist visits we would of been out the entire $9,600 plus premiums under the new plans.

 

[kellwolf]

After a bit of searching on the web, believe it or not, it's still cheaper for me to toss myself and my family on the jetBlue plan(s). THAT'S messed up.....

I don't think I can say anything else without going into some insane political rant on Congress and the health care companies.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Family Blue Plan
Premium - ***** ***** $384/mo
Deductible- *****$ 2,600
Max O/P- ***** $7,000
20% coinsurance = $35,000 or more to reach $7,000 out of pocket max.

$384 (x 12)= $4,608
$4,608+$2,600+$7,000= $14,208

This resets to zero January 1 of each year and you start all over.

If you are hospitalized for 4 days in November of 2013 and then again on January 1, 2014 and even have a minor procedure, the bill per visit easily could exceed $35,000/4 days.

For 2013+2014 you would spend*****
$28,416 total

Secondly, an normal child birth cost between $9,000 & $14,000
a C section $14,000-$25,000

4208+2600+(9000 to 25,000-2,600 x20% (1,280-4,480)=$ 8,488-$11,688 for delivery.

I was useing numbers regarding the family green plan. This reduces your premiums significantly. This is where some of our max out of pocket numbers vary a bit. Unless you have a family member with significant reacurring medication needs you shouldn't need the blue plan. Any way you look at it this is horrible.

 

[linepilot]

After a bit of searching on the web, believe it or not, it's still cheaper for me to toss myself and my family on the jetBlue plan(s). THAT'S messed up.....

I don't think I can say anything else without going into some insane political rant on Congress and the health care companies.

Or work at ANY other airline.

This is a CHOICE by a Jetblue management with no values.

Congress and health care companies have no say at all as to how companies decide to provide benefits to their employees.

 

[linepilot]

. . . but, just about a week ago DB in his JTTP said the new insurance was because of the excessive excise tax we would have to pay under the Affordable Care Act if we didn't take action?!?!?! I wish they could at least be consistent with their propaganda.

The only reason they offered Crew Care 1 for a year was so they could advance this bullsh!t claim and get their herd of sheep to bite.

 

[Cavity]

That is pretty damn screwed up.

Esteban, just wait to see what else is screwed up around here....just wait!

 

[kellwolf]

I was useing numbers regarding the family green plan. This reduces your premiums significantly. This is where some of our max out of pocket numbers vary a bit. Unless you have a family member with significant reacurring medication needs you shouldn't need the blue plan. Any way you look at it this is horrible.

Even if you do have a family member on two name brand meds a month, the Green plan at least lets you know what you're going to be paying on meds. The Blue Plan leaves it a surprise.

 

[geardown]

This stuff is all very confusing, and everyone's situation is different today and will be different in the future. I hope no one reading or commenting on this, including me, will ever be in a situation where we have to even deal with it. I would just hate someone to leave one mediocre job with good health insurance and come here and then get blindsided by the lack of health insurance. Especially on first or second year pay. Just make the decision with your eyes wide open. I know it can be a stressful decision even without this. Good luck.