JetBlue Bigwigs and the 190

[a320drivr]

Rumor has it from a MX that the bigwigs were in Brazil on Thursday the 2nd and told Embraer to either fix this POS or we are canceling our orders and you can take back the ones we already have. This airplane could hurt JB to the nenth degree if its reliability stays where it is now.

 

[h25b]

If JetBlue is really that vulnerable they should not have bet the company's success on the reliability of such a young airframe. I have no doubt that the airplane will get straightened out but whether or not JetBlue can tolerate the time it takes to do so is the question.

 

[buttercup]

Rumor has it from a MX that the bigwigs were in Brazil on Thursday the 2nd and told Embraer to either fix this POS or we are canceling our orders and you can take back the ones we already have. This airplane could hurt JB to the nenth degree if its reliability stays where it is now.

What are the most common issues the aircraft is experiencing?

 

[Heavy Set]

I suppose ordering A318s and A319s might have been more appropriate with the common training, etc. But hindsight is always 20/20... I bet Embraer made a lot of promises that have been difficult to keep. The E170 had tremendous problems when MDA started to use them a year ago or so...

I suppose Jet Blue could always acquire Frontier and then start to incorporate the A318/319 into their fleet...

 

[JBFlyer]

Rumor has it from a MX that the bigwigs were in Brazil on Thursday the 2nd and told Embraer to either fix this POS or we are canceling our orders and you can take back the ones we already have. This airplane could hurt JB to the nenth degree if its reliability stays where it is now.

Nothing like a "good rumor" to get a thread going. It never ceases to amaze me where some of this stuff comes from. Whether it's true or not, though, I have no idea. I'd tend to think this would be a bit on the extreme side.

 

[Daddy]

One big problem with the 318's is that it IS the same as a 320 basically... making it much harder to justify the lower payrates which help them keep CASM down

 

[General Lee]

Why didn't JB just get the A318? It too has 100 seats, and would have made training and reliability much better. Crazy. I bet the Embraer deal was great, but they could have used that against Airbus to try to get a good deal too on the A318.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[LarryinTN]

How do the operating costs compare on the A318 vs EMB190?

 

[jetbluedog]

The A-318 is known for being to heavy & too expensive to operate on a seat/mile basis, much like the 737-600. Neither program has been a success. The EMB choice has much better operating economics from what I understand.

Since the fleet is big enough to overcome those issues, the far superior fuel burn, lighter weight, construction more for short haul, lower aquisition cost (base price and launch customer discount) and B6's pilot rules make switching a 1 time only thing, the 190 was the better choice.


Please remember that A318 and 736 a strongly shorted versions of much larger aircraft. For that reason, they use a structure build to bring a heavy load in the air. So they get very heavy, a stretched regional jet will be much lighter and more economic.

However, the shortened design also has advantages:

higher take-off performance (especially hot and high) and longer range
better pax comfort due to larger cabin cross section
fleet commonality with larger a/c. This applies specifically to carriers with many 150 seater and a small number of 100-seaters like AF
maybe also the capability to haul freight, at least the A318 (I don't know it exactly)
the larger wingspan results in aerodynamical advantages, this can partially compensate the higher weight

You Decide what's important:

E-Jet:

Per Pax Width: 22.1"
Cabin Height: 6.6'
Floor to Bin: 4.75'

737:

Per Pax Width: 19.9"
Cabin Height: 7.2'
Floor to Overhead: 5.2'
A-318:

Per Pax Width: 21.3"
Cabin Height: 7.3'
Floor to Overhead: 5.3'


An all-coach seating configuration is an
integral part of JetBlue's successful business model. The Boeing 717 with all-coach seating would
need to be configured to 120 seats, which would be too big and uneconomical for us to profitably
serve small- and mid-sized markets.

In addition, the Embraer 190 has a range of up to 2,100 nautical miles, while the Boeing 717 can
only fly 1,700 nautical miles, significantly limiting the markets that we could operate with our new
fleet.

I'd argue that one of the most significant reasons for choosing the E190 over the A318 is crew costs. Because the A318 is common-rated with the A320, jetBlue would likely have to pay A318 pilots the same rates as A320 pilots. By choosing a different type, jetBlue can pay lower rates on the E190 and save around 30% on pilot costs. Also, with roughly 120 seats, an A318 would require three flight attendants under FAR requirements. Equipped with 100 seats, the E190 only requires two. Add to that lower fuel burn and lower acquisition cost to make the E190 the obvious winner. The fact that the A318 is only available with CFM engines clearly works against maintenance commonality benefits, too.

 

[ilinipilot]

Republic got our latest 170 with the number 3 Hydraulic system deferred. It was released into service and then got stuck in SLC for 1 day b/c a sensor was bad. If I was the CEO I would have told them to take this POS back or give us another one. I mean come on, I highly doubt Boeing will say to UAL here is your 777 sorry the 3 hydraulic system doesnt work.


Our UAL birds seem to be working well, but it takes about a year to get the bugs out it seems like

 

[calfo]

How many 170's have landed with the brakes set by now...? There's been more than a couple...

 

[3BCat]

Probably not the first or the last conversation between the two companies, eh? I understand that Embraer has already acomplished a software modification that addressed several of the more chronic issues.

JB has grown accustomed to the best dispatch reliability in the industry with the A-320, while simultaneously getting the highest utilization per aircrat, per day - industrywide.

It would be uncharacteristic for JB to accept performance numbers that don't stand up to such a high standard. Their reliability is improving, and will likely continue to do so.

 

[flyingitalian]

But hindsight is always 20/20..

.

Hindsight is 20/20, but you could see this one coming from a mile away. Not only is it a new aircraft for JB, but its the lauch aircraft customer. This aircraft purchase was ego driven, back up by a bunch of accounting statistics that dont take into account the true cost of introducing a second aircraft type. JB is not big enough to abosorb these costs and not good enough in the management dept to implement this ac launch.

 

[IB6 UB9]

I'd argue that one of the most significant reasons for choosing the E190 over the A318 is crew costs. Because the A318 is common-rated with the A320, jetBlue would likely have to pay A318 pilots the same rates as A320 pilots. By choosing a different type, jetBlue can pay lower rates on the E190 and save around 30% on pilot costs.

Bingo...sadly. Incoming...

 

[Capt. X]

The 318 and 319 were not chosen because the engines aren't compatible with the 320's and the weight of the smaller Airbus's. Nobody has said what the problem is with the E190. Can you elaborate what POS is.

 

[Fins Up]

It's fun to speculate on a potential downfall and its cause. Any brand new aircraft has its problems. It's reasonable to believe that the glitches will get worked out and the aircraft will perform juuuust fine.

 

[clickclickboom]

Amazing Mentality

Hindsight is 20/20, but you could see this one coming from a mile away. Not only is it a new aircraft for JB, but its the lauch aircraft customer. This aircraft purchase was ego driven, back up by a bunch of accounting statistics that dont take into account the true cost of introducing a second aircraft type. JB is not big enough to abosorb these costs and not good enough in the management dept to implement this ac launch.

Honeywell is solving the software glitches.. Many of the issues are resolved with pulling a few Cb's depowering the aircraft resetting and powering..

The Purchase was MARKET driven not ego driven. With all that Nelleman has accomplished to date I hardly consider buying a bunch of Brazilian aircraft topping his list. If this was purely an Ego driven decision I am sure you would have seen an Airbus A350 or A380 announcement.

I wont even respond to your last sentence. Maybe you should apply for CEO ??

 

[CitationLover]

Honeywell is solving the software glitches.. Many of the issues are resolved with pulling a few Cb's depowering the aircraft resetting and powering..

glad to see montreal hasn't cornered the market on a "reset" jet.

CTRL-ALT-DEL is what they need in these new jets.

 

[NewBlue]

CTRL-ALT-DEL is what they need in these new jets.

That is what they call the power down-up. imp:

 

[bigboeings]

You got to wonder about a jet that is several MILLION $ cheaper than anything comparable?

 

[flyingitalian]

The Purchase was MARKET driven not ego driven. With all that Nelleman has accomplished to date I hardly consider buying a bunch of Brazilian aircraft topping his list. If this was purely an Ego driven decision I am sure you would have seen an Airbus A350 or A380 announcement. ??

Well you have your opinion and Ive got mine. You certainly dont get wined and dined if you buy an airplane from your current vendor. You also dont get written about in the press if you go with your current vendor, and you dont get trips to a country where you speak the language if you go with airbus. Neelman is notorious for getting bored, and that is what happened with airbus.

I didnt even say a word about the airplane's problems. these are all conclusions based on a working airplane. Im sure the problems with the airplane will be worked out, but you are still stuck with a two airplane fleet with very minimal (in my opinion) advantages.

As far a being ceo... well i have my app in. You are right though critics are a dime a dozen.

 

[tailhookah]

The 318 is not the same type of a/c that the 320 is when you compare that the 318 has different engines, brakes, tires and various other smaller components. Same type for the pilots but that's about it for the major similarities. So why go w/ an a/c that first doesn't even meet the demographics for the type of market it's planned for and second one that is much heavier for that 100 seat configuration which will send other fixed costs much higher including the stocking of different parts (no matter what a/c b6 went w/ that was going to happen)... Southwest gets plenty of accolades about having one type of a/c but from what i have heard they have 3 different "types" of 737 that all have differing engines/brakes etc. So they really don't fly "one" type of aircraft either. Everyone likes to point out the "problems" w/ the 190 and they are true... there are problems w/ it that are being worked out. As many have pointed out on this board before, name an aircraft that didn't have start up problems...

Tail

 

[G4G5]

This is all part of posturing. Jetblue complains about some problems and Embraer takes a few dollars off the aircraft price. Jetblue is not just going to give up on the aircraft, it's here to stay.

The aircraft is not just going to disappear. Embraer has no intension of giving up on the ERJ. Odds are the problem is not Embraer's anyway. The ldg gear, engines, avionics, apu, cabin entertainment, yada yada. Are all farmed out from the various vendors.

I have taken delivery of new aircraft types before and the problems are always in how the various vendors interface their software with other vendors. I would look for a few software revisions and all will be well.

 

[fugghedabowdit]

Once again, an airline shoots itself in the foot to get low payrates. I like jetblue. Heck, I have an app in and want to work there someday. You'd think they would have been smarter than this. Outstation mechs that I was talking to a year ago said the airplane was a nightmare. This is not new.

 

[banger]

Once again, an airline shoots itself in the foot to get low payrates. I like jetblue. Heck, I have an app in and want to work there someday. You'd think they would have been smarter than this. Outstation mechs that I was talking to a year ago said the airplane was a nightmare. This is not new.

Jetblue's 190 are brand new . First one has been flying only 6 months or so. Which aircraft are you talking about?

 

[fugghedabowdit]

Im talking about the E-170s that have been flying under the USAir colors for awhile now. I believe MDA or Republic operates them.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Can you elaborate what POS is.

Seriously? You have over 12k flight hours and don't know what POS is? Perhaps you've never flown a Piece of ShXt.

I've certainly driven a few.

 

[Dave Siegel]

Why didn't JB just get the A318? It too has 100 seats, and would have made training and reliability much better. Crazy. I bet the Embraer deal was great, but they could have used that against Airbus to try to get a good deal too on the A318.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Hi, it's Dave. Contrary to you, Mr. General, FlyBoeingJets has a different perspective.

But contrary to JetBlue's critics I think the E-190 is a great idea. It attacks a slightly different market and challenges different competitors.

Hi, it's Dave again. The main market we are challenging with the E-190 is the pilot compensation market, which is the #1 threat to the success of any airline. The less pay for the pilots, the more pay for management, the true saviors of the industry. When people find low airline ticket prices, it's me they should be thanking, because we have been steadfast in our efforts to not let a bunch of overcompensated, overrated, maladjusted pilots destry the industry.

By the way, if your looking for JB Bus Drvr, here's a photo:


http://www.weblog.vannatijne.nl/wp-content/smurf.jpg

 

[jaybird]

The 318 and 319 were not chosen because the engines aren't compatible with the 320's and the weight of the smaller Airbus's. Nobody has said what the problem is with the E190. Can you elaborate what POS is.

I'm guessing the problem is FLT CNTRL NO DISP. That's what the major problems on the 170 are. It has to due with the flight controls(FBW).

 

[michael707767]

One big problem with the 318's is that it IS the same as a 320 basically... making it much harder to justify the lower payrates which help them keep CASM down

no offense, but JetBlue is non union. Why would they have to justify the payrates to anyone?

add to that I think the cost savings associated with having one pilot group, all trained on the same type airplane and the schedule flexibility that goes with it, and I think you could have afforded to pay a little more than the 190 rate.