JetBlue anti-union rhetoric

[Fubijaakr]

This company, this industry, and even Dave himself don't owe me a thing! If this company fails, I fall to illness, or I screw up, it's my responsibility. ALPA will not save my job, or my career, nor do I expect them to..

You have quite a high opinion of yourself. I believe the technical term is "hubris."

 

[sbav8r]

You have quite a high opinion of yourself. I believe the technical term is "hubris."

Not at all... Don't confuse a lack of self entitlement with hubris. I've seen how volatile this career is, and I'm making appropriate plans for if/when this industry kicks me to the curb. I'm no better than any other pilot, and have no special skill or experience that give me immunity from market fluctuations or buyouts. I just don't see evidence that ALPA is going to make any number of possible scenarios that could destroy my career less likely.

 

[pilotyip]

That's all ALPA has to offer; A false sense of security against outside forces they have no control over.

Amen, in the end the consumer of airline tickets will dictate how much money an airline makes. Look at UAL 2000 contract, there was no way UAL could cover those costs without pricing themselves out of the market. BK followed.

 

[Fins Up]

That's all ALPA has to offer; A false sense of security against outside forces they have no control over.

I keep coming back to the point that our own company doesn't want the pilots to act collectively on certain parts of our contract.

I'm no ALPA cheerleader. I'd rather not have to deal with any of this stuff. This is definitely a "pick your poison" decision. I have to go with a known, albeit checkered, plan vice our "innovative", or as I call it "experimental and untested" plan.

 

[Flyby1206]

Not at all... Don't confuse a lack of self entitlement with hubris. I've seen how volatile this career is, and I'm making appropriate plans for if/when this industry kicks me to the curb. I'm no better than any other pilot, and have no special skill or experience that give me immunity from market fluctuations or buyouts. I just don't see evidence that ALPA is going to make any number of possible scenarios that could destroy my career less likely.

Well said

I'm no ALPA cheerleader. I'd rather not have to deal with any of this stuff. This is definitely a "pick your poison" decision. I have to go with a known, albeit checkered, plan vice our "innovative", or as I call it "experimental and untested" plan.

I agree that ALPA is a known poison, but at some point we as an industry have to try something different. The past 30 years havent been kind to us.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Not at all... Don't confuse a lack of self entitlement with hubris. I've seen how volatile this career is, and I'm making appropriate plans for if/when this industry kicks me to the curb. I'm no better than any other pilot, and have no special skill or experience that give me immunity from market fluctuations or buyouts. I just don't see evidence that ALPA is going to make any number of possible scenarios that could destroy my career less likely.

Wow, you are quite innovative. Believe it or not many of us plan too. JetBlue management has dropped the ball repeatedly and now they get to experience the consequences of their actions.

 

[sbav8r]

Wow, you are quite innovative. Believe it or not many of us plan too. JetBlue management has dropped the ball repeatedly and now they get to experience the consequences of their actions.

I never doubted that you do, B6. My statements were not meant as a personal attack or an accusation.

It's obvious that you're very passionate about this election and I'm sure you have very good reasons why. I'm not at all ant-union, I'm just very skeptical of ALPA because of what I've seen in the past.

 

[n757st]

Well said



I agree that ALPA is a known poison, but at some point we as an industry have to try something different. The past 30 years havent been kind to us.

I don't want to go into a merger without any protection. M & B only forces arbitration with groups represented by a bargaining agent. Do you really want to go into a potential merger with American with nothing but a 5 year evergreen contract protecting you?

Before you guys quote Twa, remember the whole reason m&b was made law was due to how bad American pilots boned the twa guys.

No one wants to burn this place down, no one wants to kill the golden goose, the majority love their jobs and love jetblue. I made my mind up because I can't fathom walking into an era of mergers and acquisitions without protection. Everything that makes us at jetblue as good as our company is, also makes us an attractive target. Our managers may value us, but if AMR or DAL took us over, our management will NOT be running the show and will not have the ability to have our backs as they say they would.

 

[Flyby1206]

I don't want to go into a merger without any protection. M & B only forces arbitration with groups represented by a bargaining agent. Do you really want to go into a potential merger with American with nothing but a 5 year evergreen contract protecting you?
QUOTE]

I dont want to get boned in a merger either, but it can be done without M&B and all parties get it equally. Everyone makes a big ruckus about M&B, but what if we merge with American Eagle instead of American? They have 20yr RJ Captains. Would you be down for a fair and equitable merger putting them senior to you and taking an A320 CA slot? And/or get displaced to an ATR CA slot?

If you havent seen the recent arbitrators ruling on the Republic/Frontier Seniority list integration then you might want to check it out. Really ugly stuff to see 4yr RJ CAs ahead of 20yr Midwest guys and 10yr Frontier guys.

 

[Blue Dude]

I dont want to get boned in a merger either, but it can be done without M&B and all parties get it equally. Everyone makes a big ruckus about M&B, but what if we merge with American Eagle instead of American? They have 20yr RJ Captains. Would you be down for a fair and equitable merger putting them senior to you and taking an A320 CA slot? And/or get displaced to an ATR CA slot?

Fair and equitable <> DOH. Different classes and sizes of equipment, different pay, different career expectations, etc. I can't imagine how or why we'd be merged with Eagle, but I'm confident that if we have the opportunity to apply the "fair and equitable" standard to any seniority merger with them that we wouldn't lose any ground. The current 20 yr Eagle guy is topped at his carrier making far less than a brand new E190 captain and has no expectation of anything bigger or better. He won't be displacing anybody. Even the newest FO here has the expectation of at least mainline FO pay. Eagle FO pays tops at less than year one pay here. Top FO pay here is more than top Eagle captain pay. He isn't going to be bumped either. No bump, no flush for anyone, either way. Future upgrades are where the contention would be, and that's what arbitrators are for, but nobody would lose his current seat.

 

[ballsdeep123]

I find it interesting that alpa filed with the NMB before the southwest/airtran sinlge list comes out. Tha would be a good indicator of there ability with mergers.

 

[PCL_128]

If we go to arbitration, there won't be a single list awarded until almost a year from now. I'm sure the JetBlue pilots have no desire to wait a year to get their own representation just to see how a list gets resolved at AirTran/Southwest.

 

[B6Busdriver]

I never doubted that you do, B6. My statements were not meant as a personal attack or an accusation.

It's obvious that you're very passionate about this election and I'm sure you have very good reasons why. I'm not at all ant-union, I'm just very skeptical of ALPA because of what I've seen in the past.

Fair enough my friend. I heard some very eloquent words once, the only thing worse than having ALPA as your union is not having ALPA as your union. Not a glowing endorsement by any measure but an in-house was tried once before. Looking at what happened at Air Tran is a good indicator of the probable success of an in house. Unfortunately our management is much more like Air Tran than WN. No offense to my Air Tran brothers. To each is own and it is doubtful any votes are gained on this message board.

 

[B727FA]

our planes only have 99 seats instead of 100.... and remember why that is?... that's right, you had your maintenance works literally take a seat out of the plane just to sidestep the pilot's contract and force them to fly these planes for peanuts! [/COLOR]

FYI, and for the FA's CBA, too. And, on SEVERAL of the a/c, they didn't even take the physical seat OFF THE A/C! They simply removed the seatbelt and DEFERRED the seat!

 

[BeachBummer]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

This action has proved two things. One, that ALPA, before we are even members of the organization, has already screwed up for us. And two, that for those who think this JB management team will be amicable negotiators across the table from us, you're living in a dream world!!!

REAAAAAAAEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAALY!!

ah, man, you just waisted a whole chop stick full of orang chicken.
Please.... Please tell the rest of the world your just drunk or somthin?!?

The five documents.... wow, yea they didn't really know that all that stuff they shoveled at us was crap and we'd throw it back in a ball... no way man, the first version was intended to be pass with flying colors.

 

[BeachBummer]

OH Yea! the above should have SARCASM written all over it just in case someone missed it.

 

[Lake Alice]

I find it interesting that alpa filed with the NMB before the southwest/airtran sinlge list comes out. Tha would be a good indicator of there ability with mergers.

First, it's their, not there.
The ALPA filing was key to prevent further erosion of our Jetblue careers and to prevent a more difficult starting point when negotiations for a CBA begin. For example, the scope agreed to by the pro-management PVC members allowed Jetblue to purchase another airline and/or start an alter-ego airline, operate them separately while using our aircraft on our routes and ultimately discontinuing our employment. I would say furlough but as our PEA's do not contain furlough language our employment terms would not be renewed.
Do we expect Jetblue to do any of this, no, but if you put it into our PEA's the door is now open.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

This is what ALPA got for Frontier Pilots recently:

According to the agreement worked out with their union leaders, the pilots agreed to accept delayed pay increases, reduced company contributions to their 401(k) plan, reduced vacation and sick days, and an extension of their collective bargaining agreement by two years.
In exchange, the pilots union would get "an equity stake in Frontier," Republic said in a filing Friday with the Securities and Exchange Commission. It did not say how large a stake.


Read more: Frontier Airlines agrees to give pilots an ownership stake | Kansas City Business Journal

LOL, wait a minute, ALPA is only a group of advisors. It was the local reps that sold them out, LOL... The JBLU PVC was within reach of our 5 documents being sent to pilots for a vote-- provisions that were going to improve our contracts and possibly the strongest M & A language out there. But no, ALPA steps in and blows it down the tubes. Good job guys! Oh yeah, in a letter to our pilots, our JAOC explains how we're on a "road to a new way of labor relationship"-- really? We go ALPA, we go down the old road guys, the proven disfunctional way of labor... Come on, stop blowing that smoke!!!

 

[pilot772]

This is what ALPA got for Frontier Pilots recently:

According to the agreement worked out with their union leaders, the pilots agreed to accept delayed pay increases, reduced company contributions to their 401(k) plan, reduced vacation and sick days, and an extension of their collective bargaining agreement by two years.
In exchange, the pilots union would get "an equity stake in Frontier," Republic said in a filing Friday with the Securities and Exchange Commission. It did not say how large a stake.


Read more: Frontier Airlines agrees to give pilots an ownership stake | Kansas City Business Journal

LOL, wait a minute, ALPA is only a group of advisors. It was the local reps that sold them out, LOL... The JBLU PVC was within reach of our 5 documents being sent to pilots for a vote-- provisions that were going to improve our contracts and possibly the strongest M & A language out there. But no, ALPA steps in and blows it down the tubes. Good job guys! Oh yeah, in a letter to our pilots, our JAOC explains how we're on a "road to a new way of labor relationship"-- really? We go ALPA, we go down the old road guys, the proven disfunctional way of labor... Come on, stop blowing that smoke!!!

You realize that Frontier Pilots are not represented by ALPA right?

 

[BeachBummer]

OMG! Dude you must put down the pipe or the bottle or whatever it is.

Frontier uses an in-house union... NOT ALPA.:smash:

This is what ALPA got for Frontier Pilots recently:

According to the agreement worked out with their union leaders, the pilots agreed to accept delayed pay increases, reduced company contributions to their 401(k) plan, reduced vacation and sick days, and an extension of their collective bargaining agreement by two years.
In exchange, the pilots union would get "an equity stake in Frontier," Republic said in a filing Friday with the Securities and Exchange Commission. It did not say how large a stake.


Read more: Frontier Airlines agrees to give pilots an ownership stake | Kansas City Business Journal

LOL, wait a minute, ALPA is only a group of advisors. It was the local reps that sold them out, LOL... The JBLU PVC was within reach of our 5 documents being sent to pilots for a vote-- provisions that were going to improve our contracts and possibly the strongest M & A language out there. But no, ALPA steps in and blows it down the tubes. Good job guys! Oh yeah, in a letter to our pilots, our JAOC explains how we're on a "road to a new way of labor relationship"-- really? We go ALPA, we go down the old road guys, the proven disfunctional way of labor... Come on, stop blowing that smoke!!!