JetBlue anti-union rhetoric

[Fins Up]

Congratulations ALPA drive organizers. Your JB management has now suspended our 5 amendments to our PEA contracts. These improvements were within weeks of being achieved and would have been additional items on the negotiating table for our first contract... Instead, ALPA filed at the worst possible time to the NMB.

This action has proved two things. One, that ALPA, before we are even members of the organization, has already screwed up for us. And two, that for those who think this JB management team will be amicable negotiators across the table from us, you're living in a dream world!!!

Wow. You really bought into Rob's email. The 5 docs would be a threat to a union drive? There is nothing they could or would do in any of the documents that will make me feel protected. Remember, the company is trying to argue that we can use contract protections collectively in one paragraph, but not in another. I'm not even a lawyer and I could rip that to shreds. I think I'm more afraid of company lawyers being on my side of the table than the other side.

 

[sbav8r]

Wow. You really bought into Rob's email. The 5 docs would be a threat to a union drive? There is nothing they could or would do in any of the documents that will make me feel protected. Remember, the company is trying to argue that we can use contract protections collectively in one paragraph, but not in another. I'm not even a lawyer and I could rip that to shreds. I think I'm more afraid of company lawyers being on my side of the table than the other side.

That's all ALPA has to offer; A false sense of security against outside forces they have no control over.

 

[Ty Webb]

Wow . . . . the roaches really come out into the open, and scurry about wildly when they hear the dreaded cards start circulating. :laugh:

We had the same thing at AAI duing our ALPA vote. Guys who hadn't said "boo" since about 1989 were suddenly all over our message boards, predicting that if ALPA prevailed, every plague would descend upon us, from leeches to brimstone.

Of course, none of it came true, and then they all scuttled back under their rocks and were never heard of again . . . . they had done their job, and appeased their puppetmasters.

 

[B6Busdriver]

That's all ALPA has to offer. A false sense of security against outside forces they have no control over.

Enlighten us. Almost 9 years of the direct relationship is enough! I've been ALPA twice before and hopefully a third time soon!

 

[sbav8r]

Enlighten us. Almost 9 years of the direct relationship is enough! I've been ALPA twice before and hopefully a third time soon!

This company, this industry, and even Dave himself don't owe me a thing! If this company fails, I fall to illness, or I screw up, it's my responsibility. ALPA will not save my job, or my career, nor do I expect them to. It's nobody's responsibility to take control of my future other than myself, therefore; I plan accordingly. ALPA is not some messiah that will save me from outside forces, and they've proven that in recent years with conccessionary contracts, continued outsourcing of flying, and bad merger outcomes. I don't blame ALPA for these things; however, I realize that they can't protect me from them any more than they protected USAir, Midwest, TWA...

 

[Fubijaakr]

This company, this industry, and even Dave himself don't owe me a thing! If this company fails, I fall to illness, or I screw up, it's my responsibility. ALPA will not save my job, or my career, nor do I expect them to..

You have quite a high opinion of yourself. I believe the technical term is "hubris."

 

[sbav8r]

You have quite a high opinion of yourself. I believe the technical term is "hubris."

Not at all... Don't confuse a lack of self entitlement with hubris. I've seen how volatile this career is, and I'm making appropriate plans for if/when this industry kicks me to the curb. I'm no better than any other pilot, and have no special skill or experience that give me immunity from market fluctuations or buyouts. I just don't see evidence that ALPA is going to make any number of possible scenarios that could destroy my career less likely.

 

[pilotyip]

That's all ALPA has to offer; A false sense of security against outside forces they have no control over.

Amen, in the end the consumer of airline tickets will dictate how much money an airline makes. Look at UAL 2000 contract, there was no way UAL could cover those costs without pricing themselves out of the market. BK followed.

 

[Fins Up]

That's all ALPA has to offer; A false sense of security against outside forces they have no control over.

I keep coming back to the point that our own company doesn't want the pilots to act collectively on certain parts of our contract.

I'm no ALPA cheerleader. I'd rather not have to deal with any of this stuff. This is definitely a "pick your poison" decision. I have to go with a known, albeit checkered, plan vice our "innovative", or as I call it "experimental and untested" plan.

 

[Flyby1206]

Not at all... Don't confuse a lack of self entitlement with hubris. I've seen how volatile this career is, and I'm making appropriate plans for if/when this industry kicks me to the curb. I'm no better than any other pilot, and have no special skill or experience that give me immunity from market fluctuations or buyouts. I just don't see evidence that ALPA is going to make any number of possible scenarios that could destroy my career less likely.

Well said

I'm no ALPA cheerleader. I'd rather not have to deal with any of this stuff. This is definitely a "pick your poison" decision. I have to go with a known, albeit checkered, plan vice our "innovative", or as I call it "experimental and untested" plan.

I agree that ALPA is a known poison, but at some point we as an industry have to try something different. The past 30 years havent been kind to us.

 

[B6Busdriver]

Not at all... Don't confuse a lack of self entitlement with hubris. I've seen how volatile this career is, and I'm making appropriate plans for if/when this industry kicks me to the curb. I'm no better than any other pilot, and have no special skill or experience that give me immunity from market fluctuations or buyouts. I just don't see evidence that ALPA is going to make any number of possible scenarios that could destroy my career less likely.

Wow, you are quite innovative. Believe it or not many of us plan too. JetBlue management has dropped the ball repeatedly and now they get to experience the consequences of their actions.

 

[sbav8r]

Wow, you are quite innovative. Believe it or not many of us plan too. JetBlue management has dropped the ball repeatedly and now they get to experience the consequences of their actions.

I never doubted that you do, B6. My statements were not meant as a personal attack or an accusation.

It's obvious that you're very passionate about this election and I'm sure you have very good reasons why. I'm not at all ant-union, I'm just very skeptical of ALPA because of what I've seen in the past.

 

[n757st]

Well said



I agree that ALPA is a known poison, but at some point we as an industry have to try something different. The past 30 years havent been kind to us.

I don't want to go into a merger without any protection. M & B only forces arbitration with groups represented by a bargaining agent. Do you really want to go into a potential merger with American with nothing but a 5 year evergreen contract protecting you?

Before you guys quote Twa, remember the whole reason m&b was made law was due to how bad American pilots boned the twa guys.

No one wants to burn this place down, no one wants to kill the golden goose, the majority love their jobs and love jetblue. I made my mind up because I can't fathom walking into an era of mergers and acquisitions without protection. Everything that makes us at jetblue as good as our company is, also makes us an attractive target. Our managers may value us, but if AMR or DAL took us over, our management will NOT be running the show and will not have the ability to have our backs as they say they would.

 

[Flyby1206]

I don't want to go into a merger without any protection. M & B only forces arbitration with groups represented by a bargaining agent. Do you really want to go into a potential merger with American with nothing but a 5 year evergreen contract protecting you?
QUOTE]

I dont want to get boned in a merger either, but it can be done without M&B and all parties get it equally. Everyone makes a big ruckus about M&B, but what if we merge with American Eagle instead of American? They have 20yr RJ Captains. Would you be down for a fair and equitable merger putting them senior to you and taking an A320 CA slot? And/or get displaced to an ATR CA slot?

If you havent seen the recent arbitrators ruling on the Republic/Frontier Seniority list integration then you might want to check it out. Really ugly stuff to see 4yr RJ CAs ahead of 20yr Midwest guys and 10yr Frontier guys.

 

[Blue Dude]

I dont want to get boned in a merger either, but it can be done without M&B and all parties get it equally. Everyone makes a big ruckus about M&B, but what if we merge with American Eagle instead of American? They have 20yr RJ Captains. Would you be down for a fair and equitable merger putting them senior to you and taking an A320 CA slot? And/or get displaced to an ATR CA slot?

Fair and equitable <> DOH. Different classes and sizes of equipment, different pay, different career expectations, etc. I can't imagine how or why we'd be merged with Eagle, but I'm confident that if we have the opportunity to apply the "fair and equitable" standard to any seniority merger with them that we wouldn't lose any ground. The current 20 yr Eagle guy is topped at his carrier making far less than a brand new E190 captain and has no expectation of anything bigger or better. He won't be displacing anybody. Even the newest FO here has the expectation of at least mainline FO pay. Eagle FO pays tops at less than year one pay here. Top FO pay here is more than top Eagle captain pay. He isn't going to be bumped either. No bump, no flush for anyone, either way. Future upgrades are where the contention would be, and that's what arbitrators are for, but nobody would lose his current seat.