Jetblue and Lufthansa to Code-Share

[BILL LUMBERG]

Another possibility is the fact that LH is well aware that jb is planning to double in size over the next decade and the focus is on central, south america, brazil, and the carribean.. Our costs are lower than LH and we have a great product as well.

I am as guarded as anyone but the reality is tat this could be a catalyst for growth at blue. They have a 300million investment and want feed. I would not be surprised to see us operating A330's in the next few years. As a mater of fact I know for a fact that it is a distinct possibility.

mmmmkay....Keeping the dream alive.....keep that kool-aid coming!!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I think we will see alot of foreign money showing up to save the US airline industry. There's no money domestically and with the europeans knocking at the door its just a matter of time before legislation gives way to their desires.

Lets face....everyone needs a bail out.....it wont be Washington this time, and I dont see too many private groups badly bruised from 3 bad years jumpin in either.

Standbye for European money.....LH and JBLU is just the beginning!

And what happens when foreign investment dries up? Are we going to try for inter galatic investment?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So your real motivation is to help yourself or in other words you are looking out for number one. Could one conclude that your attitude is just another form of greed?

No. I don't want to benefit at your expense. One could argue that is what the jb pilots are doing... by having ALPA do all the heavy lifting for pilots on CapHill.... why do you feel you can get a free ride?

Just for the fun of it, I accept your proposed premise of lose-lose. When you say:
“If you get screwed, that means I could get screwed”, how is this working right now among the Pilot groups represented by ALPA? There are plenty carriers in the ALPA fold that drag done the average pay scale and work rules, and I do not hear you lecturing these guys. In case someone points to these failures, such as Mesa, Pinnacle, Spirit, etc. all ALPA national cheerleaders, including you, blame the local MEC and the respective management. JB, on the other hand, met and exceeded the average pay rates and continues making QFL improvement working through the PVC and your are (female dog-ing) here.

It might be a bit of news to you, but right now you should worry about what happens within ALPA rather than JB.

Different argument... enjoy the luxury not having responsibilities to the profession and your own brand with no other pilot groups...

OK. Let me get this straight, at first you reported how important it was for ALPA to represent the NWA/DAL Pilots when they met with their counterparts of KLM/AF and how they signed a MOU. Although, it did accomplish nothing to write home about it was enough of an accomplishment to mention it on FI to give the appearance it did actually accomplish something important. Is that about right?

No, that is incorrect.

To your second point, would I like to work with someone I know, trust, and respect or someone I don’t know? Well, that is like asking: Is the pope catholic? So am I correct to assume the MOU merely documents who knows who amongst the respective Pilot groups? And this MOU, the document of the meeting of the minds, alone gives you great hope whipsawing will not occur.

If this logic holds true, why is ALPA not making any progress on stopping the whipsawing amongst their ranks? I am certain all ALPA MEC know each other, or at least know of each other.

Back on tpoic... how do you know the LH pilots won't screw the JB pilots?

Because I hear the Germans like to party with new friends. For good measures we could sign a MOU in which we outline the mandate of “Free Beer and Schnitzel” on every layover for all crewmembers.
Regarding the leverage – I have to say, this it rich – ALPA does not know how to stop nor accepts any responsibility for the whipsawing amongst ALPA carriers, but you suggest ALPA has international leverage.

What leverage does JB pilots have? What are jb pilots doing to stop whipsawing?

Just for clarification, do you condone the use of fear, real or imaginary, as an acceptable management and motivational tool?

No but Barger does...

So what is it you are trying to say here? Dave is a responsible and innovative thinking manager and you do not believe it. Oh well.

I think Barger takes the money that jb pilots generate by flying blue jets around and pays a consulting firm to mind screw jb pilots.... keep them right on the edge... Telling the JB pilots that its going to get better, just hang on, we love you.. you guys are great, don't unionize, just give us time, we are all in this together, open door, you guys are not the olny ones, we want to give you a raise... just hold on, you're the best, we can't do it without you... have a blue chip,

Well good enough. Build a business case for that then.

No thanks. I am a pilot, not a bean counter.

I hope they do and JB has the product they need and want to do so.

You need to be needed?

Exactly, it is illegal and will be so even if a company is own by a foreign entity, and yes I recall how ALPA ignored the majority’s will on the age 60 rule. One more reason I respect and trust them less. Why did they not fight this like they do foreign ownership?

Stay focused... how does Age 60 factor in here. Tee issue is what would be an illegal old east bloc pilot is now suddenly legal.... coming to JFK to fly your jets... well not really yours because you have no scope...

These guys are not emotional at all, they just do not appreciate if someone peeeees on their leg and tells them it is raining. Otherwise they are a very mellow bunch and they do enjoy their right to stay Union free.

Union free, gagged, unrepresented, voiceless, bonded, ignored, disrespected...... management is going to pee on your leg and tell you its raining... that is the consulting firm that Barger hires with the money you generate....

Now you could get an umbrella but that cost 2%.


What is going to happen when you guys wreck a jet. Hopefully you never will... who are you going to send to investigate with the NTSB, so the crew doesn't get improperly blamed?

Let me conclude by rewriting the last two sentences in the spirit of the first paragraph you contributed to our exchange.

What you meant to say was: What you can do for me and my career is to organize, because I do not want to be alone on this ride done.

Not alone... but carrying you. It gets tiring.... you enjoy being responsbility and profession free, but there are some of us that are trying to save it...


Enjoy your Flight Attendant and Gate Agent health and 401k... you and the familes of jb pilots deserve better.....

 

[bluesideup340]

And what happens when foreign investment dries up? Are we going to try for inter galatic investment?

Rez you are making no sense. Plus you responded to another post that you are not a bean counter. Hence, even if one would try to explain it to you, you would not be interested.

 

[bluesideup340]

No. I don't want to benefit at your expense. One could argue that is what the jb pilots are doing... by having ALPA do all the heavy lifting for pilots on CapHill.... why do you feel you can get a free ride?.....

Rez you previously posted: “Don’t take my post as an effort of altruism. My concern for jb pilots is a concern for myself” …. This my friend, sound like greed. Don’t give me no the ALPA PAC story.

Different argument... enjoy the luxury not having responsibilities to the profession and your own brand with no other pilot groups...

No it is not a different argument at all; it is one you and ALPA do not like. Let’s face it. ALPA as a Union is a failure

No, that is incorrect.

So why don’t you fill us in on the finer points of the MOU.

Back on tpoic... how do you know the LH pilots won't screw the JB pilots?

And ALPA is guaranteeing I won’t get screwed? Back to my point ALPA has done nothing to prevent whipsawing in the good old USA amongst ALPA carrier. In fact ALPA Pilots screw each other. Tell me with ALPA’s domestic record, what can they possibly do on an international scale?

What leverage does JB pilots have? What are jb pilots doing to stop whipsawing?

Why don’t you give me an example of ALPA leverage and success preventing whipsawing in the last 30 years?

No but Barger does...

Barger never used fear. You are clearly mistaken.

I think Barger takes the money that jb pilots generate by flying blue jets around and pays a consulting firm to mind screw jb pilots.... keep them right on the edge... Telling the JB pilots that its going to get better, just hang on, we love you.. you guys are great, don't unionize, just give us time, we are all in this together, open door, you guys are not the olny ones, we want to give you a raise... just hold on, you're the best, we can't do it without you... have a blue chip,

And so far he has delivered on his promises, which is a whole lot more than what ALPA has ever done. Certainly, things are not great but they do get better.

FYI we do not generated money by flying blue jets around we are Jetting. I know, I can not believe I just wrote that but it is all for charity.

No thanks. I am a pilot, not a bean counter.

Now of a sudden you claim you do not understand business when in the first instance you made a bold claim of how business will develop. Rez you can’t have it both ways. Either you make a business case for you claim or you just have to be quiet on the subject.

You need to be needed?

LH made the investment in JB for no other reason than good business. Your response makes no sense.

Stay focused... how does Age 60 factor in here. Tee issue is what would be an illegal old east bloc pilot is now suddenly legal.... coming to JFK to fly your jets... well not really yours because you have no scope...

Rez you are the one that introduced the Age 60 in the discussion and I just responded.

Here is you quote:

“UAL and SPT aren't doing it because it is illegal.... but a simply change of the code is all it takes.... recall age 60 to 65.... it can happen...”

My response:
Exactly, it is illegal and will be so even if a company is own by a foreign entity, and yes I recall how ALPA ignored the majority’s will on the age 60 rule. One more reason I respect and trust them less. Why did they not fight this like they do foreign ownership?

Hence, you have no reason to act surprised Age 60 came up because you brought it up. If you indeed wonder how this factors into the debate you have to figure that out for yourself.

Union free, gagged, unrepresented, voiceless, bonded, ignored, disrespected...... management is going to pee on your leg and tell you its raining... that is the consulting firm that Barger hires with the money you generate....

Now you could get an umbrella but that cost 2%.

I think are overdoing it here with the “gagged, unrepresented, voiceless, bonded, ignored, disrespected” thing, aren’t you getting a bit too emotional on?

So you say I can have the ALPA umbrella for 2%. Is that an umbrella without canopy to protect me from 2% of the rain? (Really no disrespect just having fun)

What is going to happen when you guys wreck a jet. Hopefully you never will... who are you going to send to investigate with the NTSB, so the crew doesn't get improperly blamed?

Hands down, this and the medical is the only thing ALPA is doing well. Maybe ALPA should just become a service provider rather than pretend to be a Union.

Not alone... but carrying you. It gets tiring.... you enjoy being responsbility and profession free, but there are some of us that are trying to save it...

Rez I will say a prayer for you tonight, after I shed a tear for you, and mention you in my diary.

Enjoy your Flight Attendant and Gate Agent health and 401k... you and the familes of jb pilots deserve better.....

Indeed we do and we are getting there without ALPA.

 

[Dan Roman]

Indeed we do and we are getting there without ALPA.

The undeniable fact is your getting there because of the foundation that ALPA has built for our profession since it's inception. ALPA is simply the best vehicle for any group of pilots to better their own position and the profession as a whole.

 

[Dan Roman]

BTW, when you talk about whipsawing between ALPA carriers, you have a point, but the simple fact is, airlines compete, all ALPA can do is try to best protect it's memberships rights with each highly disparate individual situation that comes along. This is a very volatile and competitive industry.
BUT, the two most hurtful examples of whipsawing caused by unions were APA with it's B-scale and SWAPA flying under highly concessionary work rules (10 year contract, no retirement, etc.) to try and compete and establish themselves. ALPA has had to react to the undercutting of our profession by SWAPA and APA.

 

[bluesideup340]

BTW, when you talk about whipsawing between ALPA carriers, you have a point, but the simple fact is, airlines compete, all ALPA can do is try to best protect it's memberships rights with each highly disparate individual situation that comes along. This is a very volatile and competitive industry.

Dan I appreciate you honesty on the subject of whipsawing amongst ALPA carrier.
Identifying a problem is only the first step to improvements.
So what do you propose ALPA National can do to protect the individual pilot in highly desperate situation? How about taking care of all furlough ALPA Pilots first?

And I mean more than just lip service. I am not proposing a National seniority list. However, I do propose no ALPA carrier will hire any of the Street Pilot until all furloughed ALPA Pilots accepted or declined the offer for an interview.

If ALPA want to be the Union for Professional Pilots act like one.
No more meaningless slogans of “taking it back”, empty promises, or the show casing of an overinflated Political cloud in Washington. Actions or the lack there of speak louder than words.
ALPA is doomed unless ALPA starts accepting and responding to the new economic realities in the market place. Furloughs and airline failures are a much greater threat to the individual Pilot than a B scale, a 10 year SWA contract, or a start up like JB.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez you are making no sense. Plus you responded to another post that you are not a bean counter. Hence, even if one would try to explain it to you, you would not be interested.

Either I am not making sense or you have a problem understanding....

But its me right?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez you previously posted: “Don’t take my post as an effort of altruism. My concern for jb pilots is a concern for myself” …. This my friend, sound like greed. Don’t give me no the ALPA PAC story.

Why is it greed. If I want you to do well so we can all do well... show the greed in that...

No it is not a different argument at all; it is one you and ALPA do not like. Let’s face it. ALPA as a Union is a failure

Because ALPA doesn't magically stop market forces like an XMen movie?

So why don’t you fill us in on the finer points of the MOU.



And ALPA is guaranteeing I won’t get screwed? Back to my point ALPA has done nothing to prevent whipsawing in the good old USA amongst ALPA carrier. In fact ALPA Pilots screw each other. Tell me with ALPA’s domestic record, what can they possibly do on an international scale?

Would the whipsawing occur if the carrier on the opposite of the saw was not ALPA?

Why don’t you give me an example of ALPA leverage and success preventing whipsawing in the last 30 years?

rather reducing it... recall what I just said about market forces. Companies can't control market forces... except perhaps a little with Wal Mart... but we really don't want a company controlling the market do we?

Barger never used fear. You are clearly mistaken.

I never said he uses fear... he uses a consulting firm to piss on you and tell you its raining... and use smile and get wet.....

And so far he has delivered on his promises, which is a whole lot more than what ALPA has ever done. Certainly, things are not great but they do get better.

If there is no third party there and Bargers door is open... why are there compalints at all.... why aren't things great....

With a stroke of a pen Barger can provide industry standard... but he doesn't... why? If a union was on property he could state he has to deal with a third party... things take time....

I know why... but you tell me..

FYI we do not generated money by flying blue jets around we are Jetting. I know, I can not believe I just wrote that but it is all for charity.







Now of a sudden you claim you do not understand business when in the first instance you made a bold claim of how business will develop. Rez you can’t have it both ways. Either you make a business case for you claim or you just have to be quiet on the subject.

No, based on historical presedence... It is a possibility.... I am not saying LH will do that... but it could happen... obviously you are willing to bet your career, or job rather, on LH not taking your job...

LH made the investment in JB for no other reason than good business. Your response makes no sense.

Good buisness might be jB pilots losing flying. Might not. Good luck...

Rez you are the one that introduced the Age 60 in the discussion and I just responded.

Here is you quote:

“UAL and SPT aren't doing it because it is illegal.... but a simply change of the code is all it takes.... recall age 60 to 65.... it can happen...”

My response:
Exactly, it is illegal and will be so even if a company is own by a foreign entity, and yes I recall how ALPA ignored the majority’s will on the age 60 rule. One more reason I respect and trust them less. Why did they not fight this like they do foreign ownership?

Hence, you have no reason to act surprised Age 60 came up because you brought it up. If you indeed wonder how this factors into the debate you have to figure that out for yourself.

No, I am replying to your snide comment about how ALPA nadled age 60.

I think are overdoing it here with the “gagged, unrepresented, voiceless, bonded, ignored, disrespected” thing, aren’t you getting a bit too emotional on?

What do you call someone who rejects their rights to be respesented? Smart? Intelligent?

So you say I can have the ALPA umbrella for 2%. Is that an umbrella without canopy to protect me from 2% of the rain? (Really no disrespect just having fun)

Market forces... you want protection or not? Nothing is guranteed..

Hands down, this and the medical is the only thing ALPA is doing well. Maybe ALPA should just become a service provider rather than pretend to be a Union.

So you think ALPA's standing observer status at the UN's ICAO is not good?

Rez I will say a prayer for you tonight, after I shed a tear for you, and mention you in my diary.

Indeed we do and we are getting there without ALPA.

Good luck.... recall... all you have is denial.... what else can you do but justify that your job at jb is in control by someone else and you are totally at the whim of the market... let's put it this way.... as a jb pilot... you are a football player who has chosen to play the game without a helmet, pads, gear, etc...