Jetblue and Lufthansa to Code-Share

[bluesideup340]

Not a "JetBlue-like" operation, but a JetBlue operation, period. Right this minute they could start an airline using JetBlue equipment, staff, facilities, brand, code, management and ownership, but not JetBlue pilots. This is what scope language is meant to limit.

Got it scope is good and I agree, plus the PVC is working on it.
But keep in mind, in case JB, or for that matter any other US airline, buys a foreign airline, the labor and immigration law of that country apply regarless of scope.

 

[bluesideup340]

Specifically, the BoBs made claims about insurance, retirement plans and JBPA personnel that were patently false. I would love to share details, but the BoB website was taken down within minutes of the vote being concluded. Draw conclusions from that as well.

"Don't try this again" means what it says. You got away with it once, but you've lost your integrity in the attempt and it won't work a second time. Simply put, your collective word is no longer trustworthy. It's not a threat, just a notification that the "fool me once..." tenet is operative.

Thanks for the clearification on the "Don't try this again"
On the other stuff we just agree on disagreeing. How about that?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Thanks for your concern but it is not needed.

Don't take my post as an effort of altruism... My concern for jb pilots is a concern for myself....

If you get screwed, that means I could get screwed...

So why did you bring the MOU into the debate. Was it not to illustrate the importance of having ALPA on the property to prevent cross atlantic whipsawing? Are you now saying the MOU was nothing but a meeting of the mind with some nice but meaningless document that was signed?
Why did you use the MOU as an argument for ALPA if it did not accomplish anything?

I never said it didn't accomplish anything... It appears you don't get the point....

Would you be more likely to work with some you know, trust and respect.. or someone you don't know? Meaning built relationships are more effective than the unknown...

The BoB was a group of jB Pilots that made use of their right of free speech. They campaigned on keeping a direct relationship with jB leadership without a interference of a third party.
The PVC on the other hand is an elected group of Pilots repesenting the group. As such the PVC would be the group working "mit der Vereinigung Cockpit" when the time is right.
That is all. So I am not sure how and where you came up with show ponies.

The Bobs did more than that.... but that is another thread....

Why would VC work with the PVC? What does leverage or mandate does the PVC have....?

Show Ponies... has the PVC done anything?

If you were, but your are not. Instead you used in our post a lot of drama and emotions without facts and reason to promote ALPA. Like the Bush Administration using the Terror Threat to manage the population to secure the re-election in 2004.

You've got to manage 300M people someone... fear is a great motivator....

Here is a management tool used by JB.... its timing is planned... (no fear here... just some good ol' empty ego strokin'... who is falling for it...)

http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/03/news/companies/jetblue_airways_airline.fortune/




Let's do this, you have one A340 with a departure in FRA at 10am. Build a schedule for this one aircraft to depart FRA every day from Mo-Fri at the same time (10am), with a min turn times of 1.5 hrs. at every stop, and we take the route you suggested. FRA-JFk-LAX-JFK-FRA-JFK-LAX-JFK-FRA-etc. for the 5 days.


Why go back to JFK? Why not Asia?

LH likes jB because of the product. Matter of fact, they like it soooo much they are looking into using the concept in the EU to fight the Ryan's, Wizzz, EasyJet's, etc. Maybe JetBlue is soon to operated out of FRA. Althought we need to change the name. JetBlue is not a good name to sell in Germany because of the "Being Blue" meaning. However, it would be funny.

LH wants the market share.... don't flatter yourself....

Rez really, if it is that easy to get a visa and have low cost labor to work in the USA as you suggest, why isn't United, Spirit, or anyone else doing this right now?
Neither foreign ownership nor cabotage would change US immigration and labor law. Get real

UAL and SPT aren't doing it because it is illegal.... but a simply change of the code is all it takes.... recall age 60 to 65.... it can happen...

Again thanks for your concern and the nice discussion. I do respect your commitment to ALPA and your support for the organization. I just can not buy into the sales pitch of slogans and threats, "you better organize otherwise you are doomed" without substance.

ALPA is your best bet, but you have too many emotional guys there from TWA and USAIR.... I am really not hitting you with an ALPA sales pitch, rather a 'rights' pitch...

LH and JB are lobbying Congress..... they are not looking out for JB specifically....

Unions are about access to govt. Why would JB and LH want another voice, quite possibly counter to their own at the table....

What can you do? Organize.. otherwise you are along for the ride.... good luck...

 

[aewanabe]

Blueside up, have you ever read PPrune? Lots of Euro pilots lobbying for fifth-freedom rights over here. The US domestic market is unique in the world, period, and you bet your ass other companies and their pilots want in on it. I don't trust Dave and the PVC to save me from that.

They don't even have to be FAA ATPS with right-to-work here; one little law change and a Ryanair guy could start by flying over, spend a 6-day rotation flying US domestic and then fly home. Kinda like TWA and PanAm did out of Europe in the 50s-80s... or like CI does NOW with 747-400 freighters ANC-JFK. But it could never happen to us, right?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Got it scope is good and I agree, plus the PVC is working on it.
But keep in mind, in case JB, or for that matter any other US airline, buys a foreign airline, the labor and immigration law of that country apply regarless of scope.

First off... are you telling me that the PVC is going to deliver industry standard or even leading scope... and jb management is going to implement it?

Second.... that sounds fine is the US... but in the EU, with crew bases in one country, air certificates in another and corporate HQ in another... it gets messy....

It seems you have a false consciousness about jb pilots and their resilience... but thats good... what else do you have or can you do?

 

[clickclickboom]

Another possibility is the fact that LH is well aware that jb is planning to double in size over the next decade and the focus is on central, south america, brazil, and the carribean.. Our costs are lower than LH and we have a great product as well.

I am as guarded as anyone but the reality is tat this could be a catalyst for growth at blue. They have a 300million investment and want feed. I would not be surprised to see us operating A330's in the next few years. As a mater of fact I know for a fact that it is a distinct possibility.

 

[Splert]

Two people can look at the same facts and come to different conclusions.
If you have events of lying by the BoB, please share.

#3 in JFK and others showed up to the JBPA JFK meeting and said on tape that every pilot who was ever on LTD at JetBlue was still receiving benefits even though many were covered by the LOL plan with a 2-year benefit length.

This was supposed to be evidence of JetBlue doing the right thing when in fact it was the BoB throwing one of our own under the bus.

#3's classmate (#2 in JFK) at the time of this lie was selling everything he owned to pay for his heating bill in the dead of winter.

How do I know? I spoke to both #3 and #2. #3 said everything was fine when in fact #2 was selling anything and everything because his disability claim and health insurance was terminated.

Nice group the BooBs.

Pucking liars.

 

[bluesideup340]

Don't take my post as an effort of altruism... My concern for jb pilots is a concern for myself....

If you get screwed, that means I could get screwed...

So your real motivation is to help yourself or in other words you are looking out for number one. Could one conclude that your attitude is just another form of greed?

Just for the fun of it, I accept your proposed premise of lose-lose. When you say:
“If you get screwed, that means I could get screwed”, how is this working right now among the Pilot groups represented by ALPA? There are plenty carriers in the ALPA fold that drag done the average pay scale and work rules, and I do not hear you lecturing these guys. In case someone points to these failures, such as Mesa, Pinnacle, Spirit, etc. all ALPA national cheerleaders, including you, blame the local MEC and the respective management. JB, on the other hand, met and exceeded the average pay rates and continues making QFL improvement working through the PVC and your are (female dog-ing) here.

It might be a bit of news to you, but right now you should worry about what happens within ALPA rather than JB.

I never said it didn't accomplish anything... It appears you don't get the point....

Would you be more likely to work with some you know, trust and respect.. or someone you don't know? Meaning built relationships are more effective than the unknown...

OK. Let me get this straight, at first you reported how important it was for ALPA to represent the NWA/DAL Pilots when they met with their counterparts of KLM/AF and how they signed a MOU. Although, it did accomplish nothing to write home about it was enough of an accomplishment to mention it on FI to give the appearance it did actually accomplish something important. Is that about right?

To your second point, would I like to work with someone I know, trust, and respect or someone I don’t know? Well, that is like asking: Is the pope catholic? So am I correct to assume the MOU merely documents who knows who amongst the respective Pilot groups? And this MOU, the document of the meeting of the minds, alone gives you great hope whipsawing will not occur.

If this logic holds true, why is ALPA not making any progress on stopping the whipsawing amongst their ranks? I am certain all ALPA MEC know each other, or at least know of each other.

Why would VC work with the PVC? What does leverage or mandate does the PVC have....?

Show Ponies... has the PVC done anything?

Because I hear the Germans like to party with new friends. For good measures we could sign a MOU in which we outline the mandate of “Free Beer and Schnitzel” on every layover for all crewmembers.
Regarding the leverage – I have to say, this it rich – ALPA does not know how to stop nor accepts any responsibility for the whipsawing amongst ALPA carriers, but you suggest ALPA has international leverage.

You've got to manage 300M people someone... fear is a great motivator....

Just for clarification, do you condone the use of fear, real or imaginary, as an acceptable management and motivational tool?

Here is a management tool used by JB.... its timing is planned... (no fear here... just some good ol' empty ego strokin'... who is falling for it...)

http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/03/news/companies/jetblue_airways_airline.fortune/

So what is it you are trying to say here? Dave is a responsible and innovative thinking manager and you do not believe it. Oh well.

Let's do this, you have one A340 with a departure in FRA at 10am. Build a schedule for this one aircraft to depart FRA every day from Mo-Fri at the same time (10am), with a min turn times of 1.5 hrs. at every stop, and we take the route you suggested. FRA-JFk-LAX-JFK-FRA-JFK-LAX-JFK-FRA-etc. for the 5 days.

Why go back to JFK? Why not Asia?

Well good enough. Build a business case for that then.

LH wants the market share.... don't flatter yourself....

I hope they do and JB has the product they need and want to do so.

UAL and SPT aren't doing it because it is illegal.... but a simply change of the code is all it takes.... recall age 60 to 65.... it can happen...

Exactly, it is illegal and will be so even if a company is own by a foreign entity, and yes I recall how ALPA ignored the majority’s will on the age 60 rule. One more reason I respect and trust them less. Why did they not fight this like they do foreign ownership?

ALPA is your best bet, but you have too many emotional guys there from TWA and USAIR.... I am really not hitting you with an ALPA sales pitch, rather a 'rights' pitch...

These guys are not emotional at all, they just do not appreciate if someone peeeees on their leg and tells them it is raining. Otherwise they are a very mellow bunch and they do enjoy their right to stay Union free.

LH and JB are lobbying Congress..... they are not looking out for JB specifically....

Unions are about access to govt. Why would JB and LH want another voice, quite possibly counter to their own at the table....

What can you do? Organize.. otherwise you are along for the ride.... good luck...

Let me conclude by rewriting the last two sentences in the spirit of the first paragraph you contributed to our exchange.

What you meant to say was: What you can do for me and my career is to organize, because I do not want to be alone on this ride done.

 

[bluesideup340]

Blueside up, have you ever read PPrune? Lots of Euro pilots lobbying for fifth-freedom rights over here. The US domestic market is unique in the world, period, and you bet your ass other companies and their pilots want in on it. I don't trust Dave and the PVC to save me from that.

They don't even have to be FAA ATPS with right-to-work here; one little law change and a Ryanair guy could start by flying over, spend a 6-day rotation flying US domestic and then fly home. Kinda like TWA and PanAm did out of Europe in the 50s-80s... or like CI does NOW with 747-400 freighters ANC-JFK. But it could never happen to us, right?

If I may correct you on the Fifth Freedom:
The fifth freedom allows an airline to carry revenue traffic between foreign countries as a part of services connecting the airline's own country. It is the right to carry passengers from one's own country to a second country, and from that country to a third country (and so on).
An example of a fifth freedom flight is a 2004 Emirates Airlines flight originating in Dubai, then going on to Brisbane, Australia, and then from Brisbane to Auckland, New Zealand, where tickets can be sold on any or all sectors, and in the reverse direction if flights are offered. It is also called a connecting flight.
Two sub-categories exist. "Beyond fifth freedom" allows the right to carry passengers from the second country to the third country. "Intermediate fifth freedom" allows the right to carry passengers from the third to the second country.

Fifth Freedom rights were instrumental to the economic viability of long-haul flight until the early 1980s when advances in technology and increases in passenger volume allowed the introduction of more non-stop services. It was not uncommon for carriers to schedule multiple stops in foreign countries on the way to a direct flight's final destination, especially those connecting Europe with Africa, South America and the Far East. An example of such multi-stage flying is a mid-eighties Rome—Tokyo Alitalia flight by way of Athens, Delhi, Bangkok and Hong Kong.
Fifth freedom rights are also sought by airlines wishing to take up underserved and underserved routes, or those airlines whose flights already make technical stops at a location as allowed by the second freedom.

Some US carrier currently hold and use such fifth freedom rights to operated in and out of the EU, most notable FedEx, UPS, Polar Air Cargo, and Delta. For year DL operated out of FRA to India and I believe they operate now our of Charles de Gaulle. The EU seeks to establish parity on the use of the fiifth freedom. Hence, the push to have this included in the next round of open sky agreements.

On the subject of Law change and a US Ryan operation staffed with Chinese Pilots.
Here is why I believe your fears are unfounded. First, the immigration and labor law in the US would have to change. I presume that is possible, so is the legalization of prostitution and pot too. Possible yes, but highly unlikely.
Second, TWA and PanAm (later DL) withdrew from the inter EU market because of the logistical nightmare and inefficiencies that comes along with the operation of a remote satellite network. In fact, after the German unification and without the monopole on the Berlin market they lost money.

Right before DL folded their tents in FRA to move home they looked into buying a EU based operation. But due to the strong local competition and the EU insistence on equal ownership rights in the US, these plans never made it much beyond the planning phase.

Hence, it is highly unlikely we will see foreign pilots operate on a large scale domestic flight. It is just not economical. However, I do believe foreign investors would like to own US carriers staffed by local personal.

 

[OurMoney1]

I think we will see alot of foreign money showing up to save the US airline industry. There's no money domestically and with the europeans knocking at the door its just a matter of time before legislation gives way to their desires.

Lets face....everyone needs a bail out.....it wont be Washington this time, and I dont see too many private groups badly bruised from 3 bad years jumpin in either.

Standbye for European money.....LH and JBLU is just the beginning!