Jetblue and Lufthansa to Code-Share

[a320drivr]

I know the APA does as they keep bringing up the new 190 rates in their contract talks. I know SWAPA does. I know ALPA does because there are meetings with them last week of sept.

 

[Beantown]

And those unionized carriers have scope. I wouldn't want to be a B6 190 pilot. You guys are now the most expensive 190 pilots in the industry with no scope. Hmmm, I wonder what could be farmed out to save money.

Give me some examples of mainline scope (and the airline it comes from) that would have stopped this codeshare?

In the case of JB and Lufthansa, it has no effect on our E190 guys or our A320 guys, in fact with increased pax, it might allow for some growth.

Rumor is that the PVC is working with the company on scope, might by usless but we will see.

Just becuase you have a union doesn't mean you have scope that's worth a dam.

 

[linepilot]

Share with us again, what union was busted...????

You cannot bust something that doesn't exsist. A large percentage just indicated they didn't want a union at JetBlue, for the moment.

No Big Deal.

Very big deal when a pilot is running around spewing Ford & Harrison lies.

We (meaning the majority of airline pilots) tend to remember those things.

I've seen that list and a lame cover letter (patting themselves on the back) pop up all over the place including a particular conference where it was discussed at length over beers.

Keep telling yourselves it's not a big deal.

Just a hint for you: Ford & Harrison are not on our side.

 

[bluesideup340]

I know the APA does as they keep bringing up the new 190 rates in their contract talks. I know SWAPA does. I know ALPA does because there are meetings with them last week of sept.

So what is it that APA bringings up or says about the E190 rates?
And why is SWAPA concerned about JB, is it their codeshare with WestJet and ours with LH?

I won't ask about ALPA that would be to easy. ALPA is in it for the collection of 2% union dues from 2000 JB pilots.

 

[FBN0223]

Got scope? There go your trans atlantic route possibilities to another carrier with one stroke of a pen...

They wouldn't like those three-day Europe trips anyway.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Give me some examples of mainline scope (and the airline it comes from) that would have stopped this codeshare?

In the case of JB and Lufthansa, it has no effect on our E190 guys or our A320 guys, in fact with increased pax, it might allow for some growth.

Rumor is that the PVC is working with the company on scope, might by usless but we will see.

Just becuase you have a union doesn't mean you have scope that's worth a dam.

Wow..... I guess anything is justifiable....

If I were a jB pilot I'd have an uneasy feeling in my gut.... even if you guys voted in the JBPA earlier this year, you'd be a couple of years away from effectiveness... and without a national presence let alone an international presence... you guys just aren't players... yet someone is playing your career....

I am sure a few jB pilots know the union and groups that represent the LH pilots that will be flying the code share... Recall when NWA and Delta merged, those pilots meet with the AF/KLM pilots and signed a MOU, so those two groups wouldn't be whipsawed across the Atlantic.... If Vereinigung Cockpit wanted to sign a MOU with the JB pilots... who do they call? BoB?

VC is also a member of European Cockpit Association who is also a member of IFALPA.... ALPA USA is also a member. These groups have been around since the 1940s. They know each other.. they have relationships, trust and respect.

Will the JB pilots send BoB to meet with Associations of Star Alliance Pilots (ASAP)?


The United pilots are unionized and they are very concerned about a Aer Lingus code share...

With current pushes to open up foreign ownership and/or cabatoge.... that uneasy feeling that you should have should be more like the dry heaves...

An LH WB lands in JFK picks up new passengers and flies them to the west coast. JB "long haul" flying is over. As LH gains control over JB, they add A321s and A330s to fly out of JFK, MCO, etc.. and staff them with LH pilots and crews...

All you've guys have done is gotten jetblue off the ground... now someone else is going to come along and and take a matured airline to the next level.... possibly without you....

Then again.. maybe you guys have it right.....

Remember what Joe Elliot said... It is better to burn out... then fade awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[Blue Dude]

An LH WB lands in JFK picks up new passengers and flies them to the west coast. JB "long haul" flying is over. As LH gains control over JB, they add A321s and A330s to fly out of JFK, MCO, etc.. and staff them with LH pilots and crews...

Which is cabotage and illegal. If it wasn't illegal, they would have done it already and they wouldn't have needed JB to begin with.

Your other concerns are well-founded though.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Which is cabotage and illegal. If it wasn't illegal, they would have done it already and they wouldn't have needed JB to begin with.

Your other concerns are well-founded though.

Of course it is illegal today.... but second stage negotiations for open skies are underway... other freedoms have been lifted.... 7th (or 8th)stage or cabatoge is a high priority for the EU.... they want it....

IFALPA and ALPA want to ensure there are labor protections...

Labor isn't going to stop market forces... (can anyone?) But labor can ensure there are protections.....

 

[bluesideup340]

If I were a jB pilot I'd have an uneasy feeling in my gut.... even if you guys voted in the JBPA earlier this year, you'd be a couple of years away from effectiveness... and without a national presence let alone an international presence... you guys just aren't players... yet someone is playing your career....

So by your own admission you are not a jB Pilot, tell us, why are your concerned about our codeshare with LH then? Is it because your agenda is selling the promise of Union protection?

Recall when NWA and Delta merged, those pilots meet with the AF/KLM pilots and signed a MOU, so those two groups wouldn't be whipsawed across the Atlantic.... If Vereinigung Cockpit wanted to sign a MOU with the JB pilots... who do they call? BoB?

An MOU you say. What does it say and how does it protect from whipsawing? Or is it one of these feel good ALPA activities that are completely worthless when the tire hits the asphalt.
Let just assume the MOU is something good and meaningful, and in fact does prevent whipsawing amongst the ShyTeam Pilots. Could ALPA please introduce the same MOU to all US ALPA Carriers so we stop the whipsawing here on this side of the Atlantic first? I find it humorous that you proclaim victory on this allegedly whipsaw MOU for ALPA across the Atlantic with other Unions/Associations that are loosely connected with each other through an International. But in really ALPA is incompetent to do the same here at home. Somehow really does not support your claim. Show us an example where and when ALPA on the National stage prevented whipsawing amongst ALPA carriers before making grant claims of International successes.

Will the JB pilots send BoB to meet with Associations of Star Alliance Pilots (ASAP)?

Rez get with the program. We will send the PVC not the BoB.

With current pushes to open up foreign ownership and/or cabatoge.... that uneasy feeling that you should have should be more like the dry heaves...

Now you sound like the Healthcare Reform fighting crowd. No facts, just a lot of emotions presented with lots of drama. Just to make sure that all who listen are not only concerned but right out scared, and for good measures thanks for tell us also how much scardness we should have. Rez - really, dry heaves scary that’s it.

An LH WB lands in JFK picks up new passengers and flies them to the west coast. JB "long haul" flying is over. As LH gains control over JB, they add A321s and A330s to fly out of JFK, MCO, etc.. and staff them with LH pilots and crews...

Have you done any cost benefit analysis on the feasibility of WB flying if a foreign carrier in the domestic US market? How about the cost structure of LH crews bases in the US? Besides the financial insanity you are proposing here, there is also the work permit and US immigration issue for LH to overcome.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So by your own admission you are not a jB Pilot, tell us, why are your concerned about our codeshare with LH then? Is it because your agenda is selling the promise of Union protection?

Because the ability for industry to dispose of jb pilots would set a precednece for the rest of us.....

The JB senority list is not an island.... we are all in this together...

An MOU you say. What does it say and how does it protect from whipsawing? Or is it one of these feel good ALPA activities that are completely worthless when the tire hits the asphalt.
Let just assume the MOU is something good and meaningful, and in fact does prevent whipsawing amongst the ShyTeam Pilots. Could ALPA please introduce the same MOU to all US ALPA Carriers so we stop the whipsawing here on this side of the Atlantic first? I find it humorous that you proclaim victory on this allegedly whipsaw MOU for ALPA across the Atlantic with other Unions/Associations that are loosely connected with each other through an International. But in really ALPA is incompetent to do the same here at home. Somehow really does not support your claim. Show us an example where and when ALPA on the National stage prevented whipsawing amongst ALPA carriers before making grant claims of International successes.

I never said ALPA was all victorious...

Rez get with the program. We will send the PVC not the BoB.

What effectiveness has the PVC shown that they would be better than BoB... or are you simply saying the PVC and BoB are show ponies?

Now you sound like the Healthcare Reform fighting crowd. No facts, just a lot of emotions presented with lots of drama. Just to make sure that all who listen are not only concerned but right out scared, and for good measures thanks for tell us also how much scardness we should have. Rez - really, dry heaves scary that’s it.

If I were a JB pilot I'd either be smart and concerned or arrogant and in denial......

Have you done any cost benefit analysis on the feasibility of WB flying if a foreign carrier in the domestic US market? How about the cost structure of LH crews bases in the US? Besides the financial insanity you are proposing here, there is also the work permit and US immigration issue for LH to overcome.

Perhaps you are right.... I think a fully loaded A340 with 25-50% passenger who paid for a FRA-JFK-LAX ticket combined with 50-75% of new pax flying JFK-LAX would make good money... but I am a pilot not a airline biz guy....

But then again... the EU wants cabatoge for some reason....

LH crews based in the US? No problem.. nothing ICE and the US govt can't solve with work permits....

I am not saying this will happen..... but you have to wonder why LH likes jetblue so much... and the EU wants foreign ownership laws and a cabatoge lifted....

Keep in mind, the EU is expanding to the old east bloc... anyone with EU status can work in any EU country... LH has to simply offer employment to east bloc citizens who love to work in the USA on visas for cheap wages...

Then again...... what can JB pilots do about it.... not much.. that is why JB pilots will deny the possible incoming.......... hopefully nothing will happen and you guys will have decades....

What you should have done is organized a while ago.... it takes years to gain effective representation....

A real question is.... who on the JB seniority list is watching all of this LH activity, foreign ownership and cabatoge... who is reporting these events to you guys....? API? Reuters? Do these news outlets care about JB pilots?

 

[bluesideup340]

Because the ability for industry to dispose of jb pilots would set a precednece for the rest of us.....

The JB senority list is not an island.... we are all in this together...

Thanks for your concern but it is not needed.

I never said ALPA was all victorious...

So why did you bring the MOU into the debate. Was it not to illustrate the importance of having ALPA on the property to prevent cross atlantic whipsawing? Are you now saying the MOU was nothing but a meeting of the mind with some nice but meaningless document that was signed?
Why did you use the MOU as an argument for ALPA if it did not accomplish anything?

What effectiveness has the PVC shown that they would be better than BoB... or are you simply saying the PVC and BoB are show ponies?

The BoB was a group of jB Pilots that made use of their right of free speech. They campaigned on keeping a direct relationship with jB leadership without a interference of a third party.
The PVC on the other hand is an elected group of Pilots repesenting the group. As such the PVC would be the group working "mit der Vereinigung Cockpit" when the time is right.
That is all. So I am not sure how and where you came up with show ponies.

If I were a JB pilot I'd either be smart and concerned or arrogant and in denial......

If you were, but your are not. Instead you used in our post a lot of drama and emotions without facts and reason to promote ALPA. Like the Bush Administration using the Terror Threat to manage the population to secure the re-election in 2004.

Perhaps you are right.... I think a fully loaded A340 with 25-50% passenger who paid for a FRA-JFK-LAX ticket combined with 50-75% of new pax flying JFK-LAX would make good money... but I am a pilot not a airline biz guy....

Let's do this, you have one A340 with a departure in FRA at 10am. Build a schedule for this one aircraft to depart FRA every day from Mo-Fri at the same time (10am), with a min turn times of 1.5 hrs. at every stop, and we take the route you suggested. FRA-JFk-LAX-JFK-FRA-JFK-LAX-JFK-FRA-etc. for the 5 days.

LH crews based in the US? No problem.. nothing ICE and the US govt can't solve with work permits....

I am not saying this will happen..... but you have to wonder why LH likes jetblue so much... and the EU wants foreign ownership laws and a cabatoge lifted....

Keep in mind, the EU is expanding to the old east bloc... anyone with EU status can work in any EU country... LH has to simply offer employment to east bloc citizens who love to work in the USA on visas for cheap wages...

LH likes jB because of the product. Matter of fact, they like it soooo much they are looking into using the concept in the EU to fight the Ryan's, Wizzz, EasyJet's, etc. Maybe JetBlue is soon to operated out of FRA. Althought we need to change the name. JetBlue is not a good name to sell in Germany because of the "Being Blue" meaning. However, it would be funny.

Rez really, if it is that easy to get a visa and have low cost labor to work in the USA as you suggest, why isn't United, Spirit, or anyone else doing this right now?
Neither foreign ownership nor cabotage would change US immigration and labor law. Get real

Then again...... what can JB pilots do about it.... not much.. that is why JB pilots will deny the possible incoming.......... hopefully nothing will happen and you guys will have decades....

What you should have done is organized a while ago.... it takes years to gain effective representation....

A real question is.... who on the JB seniority list is watching all of this LH activity, foreign ownership and cabatoge... who is reporting these events to you guys....? API? Reuters? Do these news outlets care about JB pilots?

Again thanks for your concern and the nice discussion. I do respect your commitment to ALPA and your support for the organization. I just can not buy into the sales pitch of slogans and threats, "you better organize otherwise you are doomed" without substance.

 

[Blue Dude]

LH likes jB because of the product. Matter of fact, they like it soooo much they are looking into using the concept in the EU to fight the Ryan's, Wizzz, EasyJet's, etc. Maybe JetBlue is soon to operated out of FRA. Althought we need to change the name. JetBlue is not a good name to sell in Germany because of the "Being Blue" meaning. However, it would be funny.

How funny would it be if it were LuftBlue operating A320's and E190's out of Frankfurt, with American ownership? What if a dozen JetBlue A320's and E190's were "sold" to the new division to start it? What if the "new" company used JetBlue's new reservation system and back office, JetBlue's code, and JetBlue's sim center? But with German pilots on their own list and contract? I think the idea is "hilarious".

 

[Pilotbob3]

Blue bayou,

Are you or were you a Band of Blue member?

Blue Bayou,

I ask again, Are you or were you a Band of Blue member?

 

[bluesideup340]

How funny would it be if it were LuftBlue operating A320's and E190's out of Frankfurt, with American ownership? What if a dozen JetBlue A320's and E190's were "sold" to the new division to start it? What if the "new" company used JetBlue's new reservation system and back office, JetBlue's code, and JetBlue's sim center? But with German pilots on their own list and contract? I think the idea is "hilarious".

Blue Dude the name JetBlue or LuftBlue would not work in Germany. However, if someone would try that would be funny. BTW, translating Blue Dude into Germany means Drunk Guy. Do see what I mean.

But back to your post, LH could start operations without our Jets or reservation system? And of course the Pilots in Germany working for the German division would have to be German or European unless you have an EU work permit and an JAA ATPL. All of this for the same reason JetBlue Pilots in the US are US citizen or with green card and US ATP.

 

[Blue Dude]

Blue Dude the name JetBlue or LuftBlue would not work in Germany. However, if someone would try that would be funny. BTW, translating Blue Dude into Germany means Drunk Guy. Do see what I mean.

But back to your post, LH could start operations without our Jets or reservation system? And of course the Pilots in Germany working for the German division would have to be German or European unless you have an EU work permit and an JAA ATPL. All of this for the same reason JetBlue Pilots in the US are US citizen or with green card and US ATP.

The point is that there's nothing preventing our brand and equipment operating anywhere else in the world without our pilots. Nothing at all.

 

[Blue Dude]

The BoB was a group of jB Pilots that made use of their right of free speech. They campaigned on keeping a direct relationship with jB leadership without a interference of a third party.

Please. The use of "free speech" in this case involved intentionally misrepresenting material facts, i.e. lying, in order to push an agenda. This even after it was pointed out that the information being put out on the BoB website was misleading and in some cases dead wrong. To my knowledge, the JBPA never intentionally lied. And the "third party" was the JetBlue pilots themselves, with no outside component. Who was the "third" party? I only count two.

The characterization of the BoB as a neutral, fact-finding body merely expressing first amendment rights is wide of the mark. You have every right to express your opinion. You have no right to lie to force through your agenda. Big, big difference. Don't try it again.

 

[bluesideup340]

The point is that there's nothing preventing our brand and equipment operating anywhere else in the world without our pilots. Nothing at all.

And there never will be anything that would prevent a Neelman or Barger to start another JetBlue like operation anywhere else in the world.
What you are asking for is unrealistic.

 

[bluesideup340]

Please. The use of "free speech" in this case involved intentionally misrepresenting material facts, i.e. lying, in order to push an agenda. This even after it was pointed out that the information being put out on the BoB website was misleading and in some cases dead wrong. To my knowledge, the JBPA never intentionally lied. And the "third party" was the JetBlue pilots themselves, with no outside component. Who was the "third" party? I only count two.

The characterization of the BoB as a neutral, fact-finding body merely expressing first amendment rights is wide of the mark. You have every right to express your opinion. You have no right to lie to force through your agenda. Big, big difference. Don't try it again.

Two people can look at the same facts and come to different conclusions.
If you have events of lying by the BoB, please share.
And what does that mean, don't try this again? Is it the third party that I should be worry about? Do they break knee caps?

 

[Blue Dude]

And there never will be anything that would prevent a Neelman or Barger to start another JetBlue like operation anywhere else in the world.
What you are asking for is unrealistic.

Not a "JetBlue-like" operation, but a JetBlue operation, period. Right this minute they could start an airline using JetBlue equipment, staff, facilities, brand, code, management and ownership, but not JetBlue pilots. This is what scope language is meant to limit.

 

[Blue Dude]

Two people can look at the same facts and come to different conclusions.
If you have events of lying by the BoB, please share.
And what does that mean, don't try this again? Is it the third party that I should be worry about? Do they break knee caps?

Specifically, the BoBs made claims about insurance, retirement plans and JBPA personnel that were patently false. I would love to share details, but the BoB website was taken down within minutes of the vote being concluded. Draw conclusions from that as well.

"Don't try this again" means what it says. You got away with it once, but you've lost your integrity in the attempt and it won't work a second time. Simply put, your collective word is no longer trustworthy. It's not a threat, just a notification that the "fool me once..." tenet is operative.