Jetblue 5 year contract

[Capn Mike]

RJ...i want to know why you think re applying for a job after 5 years to allow a FO to upgrade is bad...after 5 years the CA has had a good run making some awesome cash...now it is the FO's turn...either re apply and go back to FO seat or find another job. this is the major reason morale is high at jetblue and nowhere else! it is great for the company too...it saves LOTS of money and that is good job security for the pilots.

Stiring the pot.

 

[Longhorn]

ASA Captain.
They would treat is exactly the same as your airline. They would do an investigation, get to the bottom of what happen. Read any reports filed and if it was serious enough more than likely send you to MCO for additional training. In the example you gave, they would say " is everyone ok? We'll look over the report and send an email to the pilots as a heads up about the situation, good job taking care of the plane and the customers and stop by anytime with any concerns...want to grab some coffee?" literally, that’s how confrontational it would be!! Unless you really screw up ex. fly drunk, punch the CP, burn down the building, jetBlue will protect you like their own. We are all on the same team and not out to hurt or dismantle any jobs. Its the oddest thing, they actually want you to be happy, and will work WITH you. Like I said, its not perfect but no job is. As an example, I went through a divorce where my wife cleaned me out the 1st week in ground school. The company treated me like I had been there from day 1. I was left with 27 dollars in my bank account. They went and offered a 500-1000 dollar pre-paid visa card to get me though training. They said I could pay it back when I could after training. This was not only from the company but from some of the exec's personal finances. The heads of training were going to spend their money to help me out. Because if that I feel like I made the right decision in coming here. I ended up having family help in the end but their gesture is something that I will never forget....

 

[furloughed dude]

Deleted

 

[PCL_128]

PCL_128....
Hey, you know me. If you wanted the information on the 5 year contract you could have emailed me or pm'd me. I know most of the guys that commute from MSP and DTW and they would all be happy to explain it. I think that maybe they are not quick to answer due to the fact that we get interrogated by guys on the jumpseat 95% of the time, and usually its by guys who have no idea what they are talking about since they base all their info off this website. JB is much better than PCL ever was. I do not regret the jump at all and would encourage anyone there to put their stuff in here. I would even help 99% of the guys there since I know most of them. For the last time, the 5 year contract is a non issue. It is simply a contract of work rules that protects both sides. It states what they can and cant do and vise versa. Spells out pay, time off, senority, upgrade, etc etc. It covers everything that the alpo contract would cover. Yes, there are some issues that can be worked on like the scheduling guide, although I get on average 15-17 days off with 85 hours so I am not bitching too much about it. When was the last time you got that at pcl as a middle of pack fo? I am not upset with you but you know that if you want info, or even a peek at the contract you could have just contacted me.

Sully

Longhorn, thanks for the straight answers. Let me ask you this, however: what do you think the purpose of this contract is? Do you really believe that management doesn't have any ulterior motives in having each individual pilot sign a 5-year contract? Those contracts could easily be used to get rid of pilots that try to start a union drive. It's easy to "keep someone in line" when they are afraid of the consequences because of a 5-year contract.

 

[Eagleflip]

PCL--the 5 year contract is in place to enforce certain rules as well as provide substantial protections to the pilot in question. As for why it is 5 years in duration vice 10, 20 or 50, I think the company has to set a realistic time frame for the provisions within.

A reasonable question comes to mind: how long does the average union-negotiated contract valid for? Aren't they valid for 4 to 7 years? Aren't they ammendable at will?

Your real question is reasonable, however. Would JetBlue use the 5 year contract to rid itself of trouble makers. In my estimation--and experience--they would not do so, and have not done so. Certainly, we have a few folks who are difficult to work with--they are still on the property despite their "shortfalls." I do not know of anyone who has truly pushed for a union, but I'd bet we have had someone do so--and we still have everybody on board the company (with the exception of those who retired or fired for conspicuous issues, none that had to do with this).

And this rationale does not even begin to address the huge training costs associated with firing a well trained Captain and replacing him. Further, what exactly do you think the pilot group would do IF someone were fired purely for their opinions? Come on! Your logic is not so logical.

So, does that answer your question?

 

[Longhorn]

I honestly do not think there is any ulterior motive to the contract. First, its illegal to fire someone or threaten an employee that tries to organize. That would go against everything that the company was founded on. If they fired a pilot at the 5 year mark whereas the situation was even the slightest bit questionable, the pilots here would be in a uproar. I think the whole company would be in an uproar. That would guarantee a union for sure. The ramp and customer service folks are very supportive of the pilots and FA's and vice-versa. We would all move to unionize if the company betrayed us outright. At the same time, please remember that most of this company is not new to unions. We have a lot of TWA and USAIR guys that really were taken without lube and I don’t think they are up for another round. The USAir pilots here were part of a very strong alpa union at one time. If after all they have been through they thought they were being betrayed, they would not sit there and take it. I believe the company knows that, and because of that come up with a contract that helps everyone. It is not so management friendly that the pilots feel like we are getting screwed, and at the same time, it’s not so pilot heavy that management feels the need take from a group of "greedy" pilots. It does have some points that need to be looked at, like the 190 rates. Everyone knows the rates are not great. But I believe that most would rather have rates that are a bit low and can raised after justifying it financially rather than having to come to the pilot group and say ..um guys, yea, we are going to have to ask for a cut because the 190 rates are too high and we are not making money on the AC. That would kill employee moral on all levels. I think we will see a raise in the not so distant future but only when the price of oil comes down and stays down a bit and the plane proves itself. I do think we will see a swapa style union down the road.. way down the road but only as a communication medium between a large pilot group and management. Hopefully, if that happens, it will all be done together with nothing with the companies and pilots best interest's in mind. I am sure it will be. As for the overall pay here, since it seems to be that we are accepting sub-standard pay rates in this industry, I made a little over 64K my first year without having to work to hard.
Take Care.
Sully

 

[Longhorn]

Yea, what eaglefip said as well..

Thanks EF

 

[wndshr]

Exactly!

Stiring the pot.

please don't blow my cover! i hope i am not too obvious

this is FUN!

 

[wndshr]

Typical. I've asked a couple of JetBlue jumpseaters the same questions, and they always refuse to answer in a straightforward manner. Take a look at other JetBlue threads on this board. Anytime a JetBlue pilot says anything remotely pessimistic about the company, a hoard of JBlue pilots pile on telling them that "These things don't belong on a public board!" What exactly are the Blue-aid-drinking cultists trying to hide?

There is nothing the "blue aid drinking cultist are trying to hide" plain and simple...they have the most comprehensive and secure contract available in the industry today. the pay may not be the best, but who cares...making money for the company is WAY more important don't you think? after all...without a company to work for...you have nothing! back to flying the 'lil jets again! try tellin' hot chicks you are a pilot...then when they find out you fly 'lil jets they look at you like you just passed gas or something! BUT...tell them you are a 150 seat airbus pilot...GAME OVER!

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

Typical. I've asked a couple of JetBlue jumpseaters the same questions, and they always refuse to answer in a straightforward manner. Take a look at other JetBlue threads on this board. Anytime a JetBlue pilot says anything remotely pessimistic about the company, a hoard of JBlue pilots pile on telling them that "These things don't belong on a public board!" What exactly are the Blue-aid-drinking cultists trying to hide?

We're trying to hide that we don't pay for our airplanes, we own our own oil wells so we don't pay for jet fuel, we all fly for no pay because it's a priviledge to fly an Airbus, and the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, and the ghost of Jim Morrison are alive and well and fly JetBlue regularly. So there, it's out in the open.

 

[ASA Captain]

A reasonable question comes to mind: how long does the average union-negotiated contract valid for? Aren't they valid for 4 to 7 years? Aren't they ammendable at will?

Airline contracts do not expire, they become amendable. When it is amendable, both parties enter negotiations, but must maintain the status quo until a new agreement is reached or the National Mediation Board releases them from negotiations. See... Railway Labor Act.

The company alone, cannot, at will, change the contract. Although if you ask any of my ASA brothers and sisters, they might argue ASA has done just that.:angryfire

 

[banger]

Airline contracts do not expire, they become amendable. When it is amendable, both parties enter negotiations, but must maintain the status quo until a new agreement is reached or the National Mediation Board releases them from negotiations. See... Railway Labor Act.

The company alone, cannot, at will, change the contract. Although if you ask any of my ASA brothers and sisters, they might argue ASA has done just that.:angryfire

Yea, well tell that to us furloughed Delta guys. Our contract had a "no furlough" clause that was "air tight". Didn't last to long now did it.

 

[Beech D45]

I hear you get your minimum guarantee for the duration of the contract if you're furloughed. Sounds like a pretty good deal considering what's been happening in the industry over the last 5 years.

The value of this is zero. If Jb is going to furlough a pilot and still pay such a salary, then it is in jB's interest to require the employee to show for work. A severence package up to five years?

The difference between the Jb contract and an RLA negotiated contract is Jb can change the terms of the contract....at will. While most of the RLA contracts as of late have been severly watered down, they have been done so via negotiations.

Consider this.... if Jb found itself in financial difficulty, how would Dave and David address the pilot contract? Can an airline operating in the red, realistically pay an employee not to work?

The Jb contract sounds fine, just as long as jB is doing well. IF jB does bad then all bets are off. jB isn't any more immune than the others...

 

[A350]

So basically, no matter what, a contract can be changed or watered down.......I would rather my management unilaterally change contract rules without my consent than to give away the hard work of my brothers and sisters.

JB can change the contract.....but in order for it to be in effect, WE have to individually sign it. So my fate is in my hands, not some pilot who wears a suit and wants to wipe his butt in the executive suite and eats steak dinners on my dime.

What can we do? About as much as the thousands of ALPA pilots who have been on the receiving end of the shaft since 9/11. And I get to keep my 1.95%.

A350

 

[Beech D45]

So basically, no matter what, a contract can be changed or watered down.......I would rather my management unilaterally change contract rules without my consent than to give away the hard work of my brothers and sisters.

JB can change the contract.....but in order for it to be in effect, WE have to individually sign it. So my fate is in my hands, not some pilot who wears a suit and wants to wipe his butt in the executive suite and eats steak dinners on my dime.

What can we do? About as much as the thousands of ALPA pilots who have been on the receiving end of the shaft since 9/11. And I get to keep my 1.95%.

A350

Well this is it in a nut shell......

Ignorance and arrogance. Chopped up and served up on a nice black and white platter.....

Man, if I lived in your world, I guess I'd have to look at it this way too....

You sound like a defendant saying your better off with the DA's office..... blaming others for not making your life better....


(now, the trick is..on your part..... can you respond without canned common Anti ALPA talking points (including National Salaries) and no I'm not saying God and ALPA are related....)

I think the issue is.... no one knows what or how jB will respond to financial hardship. The trick is for them, like SWA, to stay out financial difficulty. But if they don't then good luck, because you will have as much influence negotiating terms as did Munro

IOW, you would rather have terms dicated to you than be a player at the table. (or at least represented.....) You are so pissed at unions...the equivlient is getting yourself in a civil suit and not hiring a lawyer cause you hate lawyers.... You're so fustrated and deflated you have resigned yourself to giving up and letting someone else "take care" of you.

 

[JB Bus Drvr]

D45, It's really good of you to be so concerned about the way we do business. What you don't know and problably won't believe is that we do have a voice in our agreement. We also have faith in our mgmt. to do the right thing. Unlike the other carriers' mgmt., who hide behind BK proceedings to take from the pilot group all in while fattening their own wallets, our mgmt. has a very vested interest in keeping on good terms with us. They TRUST us to do the right thing. And granted, we may have some internal strife from time to time, but show me a family who doesn't.

BTW, your reference in your 4th para. ( You sound like..... ) is way inappropriate and has no business on the Board. Shame on you!

 

[Beech D45]

D45, It's really good of you to be so concerned about the way we do business. What you don't know and problably won't believe is that we do have a voice in our agreement. We also have faith in our mgmt. to do the right thing. Unlike the other carriers' mgmt., who hide behind BK proceedings to take from the pilot group all in while fattening their own wallets, our mgmt. has a very vested interest in keeping on good terms with us. They TRUST us to do the right thing. And granted, we may have some internal strife from time to time, but show me a family who doesn't.

BTW, your reference in your 4th para. ( You sound like..... ) is way inappropriate and has no business on the Board. Shame on you!

Edited for your taste.

In what way do you have a voice?

So you are saying that IF jB hit tough times and was losing money that your faith and trust in management (Dave and David) would remain.

 

[Skank]

FlyAuburn,

Unable to reproduce now ... and no, you need help. You never sign any contract as a condition of employment ... and yes, the bringing the industry down batan has been handed to those who have to re-apply for their job and get bumped back to F/O after five years... not at SWA, nor any other airline I can think of.

Someone needs to hit you between the eyes and knock some sense in ya.

RJ

You sure are gullible. Keep going, you may set a new record. Your outrage at something that doesn't exist is quite humorous.

 

[wndshr]

Edited for your taste.

In what way do you have a voice?

So you are saying that IF jB hit tough times and was losing money that your faith and trust in management (Dave and David) would remain.

ABSOLUTELY! part of the 5 year agreement has a statement of trust in it too! "....in case of dreaded financial difficulties we will do our best for the company and its employees. we promise not to take advantage of our employees or creditors. we ask that you agree to all of our business decisions and trust that they are all done for the benefit of the company and its employees."

 

[Beech D45]

ABSOLUTELY! part of the 5 year agreement has a statement of trust in it too! "....in case of dreaded financial difficulties we will do our best for the company and its employees. we promise not to take advantage of our employees or creditors. we ask that you agree to all of our business decisions and trust that they are all done for the benefit of the company and its employees."

You didn't answer how you have a voice...

Not sure I see the difference between this employee policy doc and an agreement. Except that B6 management can change the policy 'at will' at any time.

i.e here is an updated copy of your five year agreement. Sign and return. Your promtness and cooperation is appreciated. -D&D

The encompassing point is tough financial times. To say that a JB pilot is better off in tough financial times than any other non B6 pilot is rediculous...

What I don't get is SWA has provided the blue print on sucess. According to the book the SWA Way, Herb, Colleen and now Gary make thier unions thier partners. But B6 seems to cut the corner on this and circumvent..... Why?


Another point is it appears that B6 pilots do alot more defending than LUV pilots.


Two pilots....

One has finished IOE at B6 and finally hears from SWA and is offered a LUV job. Stay or Go?

Another has finished IOE at LUV and is offered a B6 job? Stay or go?