Jet for Jobs - NWA Airlinks

[dondk]

Ah, the ole' flow-through carrot re-appears. When will we ever learn? We will never get a NWA seniority # as long as we wear the XJ or 9E uniform. But it's nice to dream I guess.

I second this... if we ever got flow-through, I would expect restriction's upon restrictions.. Although.. the flow back would be wide open and they'd all be Captain's coming back down...

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"So, let me get this straight - it's Jet for Jobs when ALPA demands that mainline USAirways flies 70 seat jets at PSA, but when NWA ALPA is demanding the same, it's somehow different? "


Ummmmm.......yes it is different because NWA Alpa is not demanding the same thing as UsAirways. These are not aircraft that would be placed at Mesaba or Pinnacle with a certain number of seats to be given to NW pilots. These are aircraft to be placed at mainline, per the scope they negotiated, what, almost 6 years ago now??



"A few years back mainline pilots wouldn't fly a CRJ, now they are all over it."

Thats a bunch of horesh!t and you know it. A good portion of mainline newhires (everywhere) hired prior to the furloughs came from the regionals, and to imply that they wouldn't want to "lower" themselves and fly a CRJ is absurd. If the pay and workrules are right, I'd go back to flying a 172.


"I have heard this story from several NWA guys lately.. they REALLY want any flying that will be above 55 seat aircraft in house. They will play ball to secure 70 and 90 seat aircraft."

You have heard that because I believe that is what the scope language says........anything above 55 seats (could be 50, not sure), with the exception of the avros, goes to mainline. There is no "securing" the 70 to 90 seat aircraft.....it is already secured.

 

[fam62c]

I'm not sure this will work for the NWA pilots. I've heard countless times on these boards about major airlines being able to operate small jets if the union can negotiate "competitive pay rates." First off, you would need competitive rates for the FA's, machanics, dispatchers, ramp and gate people as well as the pilots. Once you have the rates set then you would need to get "total compensation" competitive by adjusting the benefits and work-rules downward. Even if you could do all of this the CASM's for the 70 seaters would still be high because of the overhead from the rest of the operation. It's the same set of problems that makes it almost impossible for a large major to get CASM's near the level of the LCC's even if the pilot pay rates are matched.

I'm convinced that the major airline unions will never agree to do what would be necessary to fly 70-100 seat planes competitively. In the end, I think the major airline pilots will try to hold on to the best pay and work rules they can for the 100+ seaters and let the smaller planes go. I think that the most likely scenario will be totally new, seperate divisions for the smaller planes with displaced and furloughed major pilots having first choice at the jobs and the choice of flowing up as jobs become available at the "mainline." These new divisions will have pay rates appropriate to the smaller planes and simplified contracts and no DB retirement plans. We'll see what happens at NWA. NWA is more insulated from the discounters because DTW and MSP are better protected for now so the NWA pilots may have a little more leverage than everyone else, but the company still isn't making money and that can't go on forever. The next couple of years will be interesting.

 

[dondk]

quote:

You have heard that because I believe that is what the scope language says........anything above 55 seats (could be 50, not sure), with the exception of the avros, goes to mainline. There is no "securing" the 70 to 90 seat aircraft.....it is already secured.

If it is "secured" so to speak.. then why:

NWA MEC developing RJ flying proposal

July 2, 2004 – Northwest Airline's Master Executive Council today announced a proposal to address NWA management’s desire to fly 70-seat regional jets within the NWA system.

According to a memo sent to all NWA pilot, their management has proposed, “we [the pilots] relax our current job protection language to allow NWA to outsource up to 72 total 70-seat jets. While we recognize NWA may have a competitive need for aircraft of this size, the MEC will not agree to changes which allow outsourcing of that flying. NWA pilots have already ‘bought and paid for’ the rights to all flying in aircraft larger than 55 seats, and any such aircraft flown in the NWA system will be flown by NWA pilots. An exception is for 36 AVROs containing 69 seats currently flown by Mesaba Airlines, a Northwest Airlink carrier.

The NWA MEC Negotiating Committee is developing a counterproposal to provide a structure within which NWA pilots would fly 70-seat jets flown with NW code (except for the current MSA AVROs and others currently permitted by Letters of Agreement).

If you "secured" the right's why negioate? You have them (mgmt) right where you want them. I see a counterproposal as way to regain control of the regionals.

When the orginal scope was written the regionals had 36 Avro's and a bunch of Saab's. Now you have 129 RJ's, 36 Avro's and a bunch of Saab's. More RJ's, rumor a new aircraft (prop-70 seat version (under the scope limitations)) on the horizon. Dang... 9E is doing point to point service.. something I'd I thought I would never see.

I see the willingness as a wakeup call to secure that XJ and 9E don't grow to much. I find it strange though, that NWA MEC with such strong scope language is even considering relaxing it for 70 seat aircraft.

 

[JohnDoe]

dondk:
"I find it strange though, that NWA MEC with such strong scope language is even considering relaxing it for 70 seat aircraft."

I'm not quite understanding you. Where are you getting that we are relaxing the scope on 70 seaters? As a matter of fact, the statement says the exact opposite:"While we recognize NWA may have a competitive need for aircraft of this size, the MEC will not agree to changes which allow outsourcing of that flying. "

The statement also goes on to say, twice, that any 70 seaters would be flown by mainline.

The proposal for up to 72-70 seaters came from management, not the MEC.

Any negotiating going on right now with regards to the 70 seaters, as far as I can tell, are going to be about things like payrates, workrules, etc. etc..

 

[Monster Buck]

I read the memo too.. found the number "72" to be an odd number. We all know they have about 100 more options.

175 ish remaining options on crj's is correct
NWA was asking its pilots to double its 70 ish seat ac...72/2=36 which is the number of avro's Mesaba was awarded.

 

[belchfire]

To bad mainline isn't interested
in replacing those -9's with some
717's.

 

[NWANFO]

EMB-170 $25.5 million per copy.
B-717 $37.5 million per copy.

 

[avrodriverj85]

The only way to look is this is - us vs. them. NWA vs NWA Airlinks. If this agreement were to go thru, it threatens our growth and our future. Brand scope within the NWA family is an ALPA myth.

 

[belchfire]

EMB-170 $25.5 million per copy.
B-717 $37.5 million per copy.

Okay, but there is more to it than just
the initial purchase price, like training,
reliability, passenger comfort...oh, yeah,
and the 717 is made in this country!

Didn't NWA take some money from the
feds? They ought to at least spend it
on equipment that is built here...jmho.

 

[DoinTime]

The only way to look is this is - us vs. them. NWA vs NWA Airlinks. If this agreement were to go thru, it threatens our growth and our future. Brand scope within the NWA family is an ALPA myth.

Brand scope a myth? Who else is flying red tails other than 9E, XJ, and NW? Until another carrier picks up the NW code I'd say say that brand scope has worked just as ALPA intended.

 

[surplus1]

I'm still skeptical, because it seems too good to be true for the NWA pilots to honestly have our best interest at hand.
FO

Your naivete is showing and so is that of all the other Airlink pilots writing in this thread, with the exception of Avro.

Let's keep it simple. The only pilots in ALPA who believe that the "mainline" carriers have any "best interests" at heart besides their own are all regional pilots.

The only pilots in ALPA that do NOT have their own best interests at heart are also all regional pilots.

That is why we have been shafted in the past and will continue to be shafted in the future. When it comes to "interests" you guys are babes in the woods.

That is also why the Mesaba pilots' "leader" has been promising that flow-through is right around the corner for more than ten years. You don't have it and you won't get it unless it is structured to favor and protect the intersts of NWA pilots.

What you do is your business but for God's sake, wake up and smell the coffee. The NWA pilots are not in your corner, have never been in your corner and will never be in your corner. That doesn't mean they are "bad", that's just how it is.

They are smart enough to understand that their own intersts are number one and you people are not even being considered. When are you going to get the message and understand that if you have any "interests" you need to protect your own interests yourselves?

Go ahead and decide what your own interests may be, but STOP expecting them to do anything for you. You are not even being considered, except for how they can protect themselves from you. That is NOT going to change.

This is NOT a "love-in". It's dog eat dog and it has always been that way. Either you take care of yourselves or they will eat you alive at the first opportunity.

If they can keep the 70-seaters, they will do it. If the can get rid of the Avro or fly it themselves, they will do it. If they can get the 50-seaters, they will do that too. What happens to you is of no consequence to them. What's "fair" has nothing to do with it. Never did, never will.

If you expect ALPA to protect your "interests", forget it. ALPA knows what side its bread is buttered on and who has the butter. It is not Mesaba or Pinnacle or any other "regional". The writing has been on the wall for years; read it.

The mainline groups made a mistake by allowing exemptions to their Scope. They now know that and they will do whatever they can to get all the jet flying back as soon as they can. What happens to you in the process is no concern of theirs. Your job, your future, your upgrade, your PIC turbine, nothing of "yours" matters.

Get that straight and then do whatever you think is best. Just stop all the Kool Aid drinking, please.

 

[JohnDoe]

Gee.....there's a news flash.......BOTH parties are going to try and do what is in their own best interest.

And in less than 13 paragraphs.

 

[FN FAL]

When I seen what happened at American and Eagle lately with their "flow backs" it was clear to me that sooner or later something like this was going to happen at one or all of the other Major carriers. I think this is a trend of how things are going to be for a while.

I work for a freight "regional" where all of the aircraft are owned by the "Major" side of things. I tried to tell my co-workers after the Eagle thing, that it ain't going to take federal arbitration to see mainline guys flying our freight runs and putting us out of jobs, if they ever have to lay a bunch of guys off upstream of us.

My coworkers all laughed and said that mainline pilot's heads are too big to fit in a caravan and how would they make it on caravan pilot pay...yadda, yadda, yadda...plus, they never had a lay off at xyz, so we got nothing to worry about.

Our operations have a thirty day contract with mainline to operate and maintain their feeder aircraft. The contract renews every thirty days. All they would have to do in the case of big layoffs at mainline, is offer to not renew the contracts unless the feeders allow mainline pilots to fly the planes. No railway act, no federal mediators, no nothing...it would be a done deal.

The mainline side is getting ready to start replacing three pilot planes with two pilot planes and freight is getting a little soft...so where will downsizing affect the "regional" or "feeder" side of flying next? Delta? United? FedEx?

 

[dondk]

this is slightly off the subject, but does sort of apply to Surplus1's and JohnDoe's remarks..

Correct me if I am wrong.. but doesn't NWA still have a red book/green book deal still going on..

I would expect the same "if" XJ and or PCL ever got a one list deal.