Jet for Jobs - NWA Airlinks

[Monster Buck]

I read the memo too.. found the number "72" to be an odd number. We all know they have about 100 more options.

175 ish remaining options on crj's is correct
NWA was asking its pilots to double its 70 ish seat ac...72/2=36 which is the number of avro's Mesaba was awarded.

 

[belchfire]

To bad mainline isn't interested
in replacing those -9's with some
717's.

 

[NWANFO]

EMB-170 $25.5 million per copy.
B-717 $37.5 million per copy.

 

[avrodriverj85]

The only way to look is this is - us vs. them. NWA vs NWA Airlinks. If this agreement were to go thru, it threatens our growth and our future. Brand scope within the NWA family is an ALPA myth.

 

[belchfire]

EMB-170 $25.5 million per copy.
B-717 $37.5 million per copy.

Okay, but there is more to it than just
the initial purchase price, like training,
reliability, passenger comfort...oh, yeah,
and the 717 is made in this country!

Didn't NWA take some money from the
feds? They ought to at least spend it
on equipment that is built here...jmho.

 

[DoinTime]

The only way to look is this is - us vs. them. NWA vs NWA Airlinks. If this agreement were to go thru, it threatens our growth and our future. Brand scope within the NWA family is an ALPA myth.

Brand scope a myth? Who else is flying red tails other than 9E, XJ, and NW? Until another carrier picks up the NW code I'd say say that brand scope has worked just as ALPA intended.

 

[surplus1]

I'm still skeptical, because it seems too good to be true for the NWA pilots to honestly have our best interest at hand.
FO

Your naivete is showing and so is that of all the other Airlink pilots writing in this thread, with the exception of Avro.

Let's keep it simple. The only pilots in ALPA who believe that the "mainline" carriers have any "best interests" at heart besides their own are all regional pilots.

The only pilots in ALPA that do NOT have their own best interests at heart are also all regional pilots.

That is why we have been shafted in the past and will continue to be shafted in the future. When it comes to "interests" you guys are babes in the woods.

That is also why the Mesaba pilots' "leader" has been promising that flow-through is right around the corner for more than ten years. You don't have it and you won't get it unless it is structured to favor and protect the intersts of NWA pilots.

What you do is your business but for God's sake, wake up and smell the coffee. The NWA pilots are not in your corner, have never been in your corner and will never be in your corner. That doesn't mean they are "bad", that's just how it is.

They are smart enough to understand that their own intersts are number one and you people are not even being considered. When are you going to get the message and understand that if you have any "interests" you need to protect your own interests yourselves?

Go ahead and decide what your own interests may be, but STOP expecting them to do anything for you. You are not even being considered, except for how they can protect themselves from you. That is NOT going to change.

This is NOT a "love-in". It's dog eat dog and it has always been that way. Either you take care of yourselves or they will eat you alive at the first opportunity.

If they can keep the 70-seaters, they will do it. If the can get rid of the Avro or fly it themselves, they will do it. If they can get the 50-seaters, they will do that too. What happens to you is of no consequence to them. What's "fair" has nothing to do with it. Never did, never will.

If you expect ALPA to protect your "interests", forget it. ALPA knows what side its bread is buttered on and who has the butter. It is not Mesaba or Pinnacle or any other "regional". The writing has been on the wall for years; read it.

The mainline groups made a mistake by allowing exemptions to their Scope. They now know that and they will do whatever they can to get all the jet flying back as soon as they can. What happens to you in the process is no concern of theirs. Your job, your future, your upgrade, your PIC turbine, nothing of "yours" matters.

Get that straight and then do whatever you think is best. Just stop all the Kool Aid drinking, please.

 

[JohnDoe]

Gee.....there's a news flash.......BOTH parties are going to try and do what is in their own best interest.

And in less than 13 paragraphs.

 

[FN FAL]

When I seen what happened at American and Eagle lately with their "flow backs" it was clear to me that sooner or later something like this was going to happen at one or all of the other Major carriers. I think this is a trend of how things are going to be for a while.

I work for a freight "regional" where all of the aircraft are owned by the "Major" side of things. I tried to tell my co-workers after the Eagle thing, that it ain't going to take federal arbitration to see mainline guys flying our freight runs and putting us out of jobs, if they ever have to lay a bunch of guys off upstream of us.

My coworkers all laughed and said that mainline pilot's heads are too big to fit in a caravan and how would they make it on caravan pilot pay...yadda, yadda, yadda...plus, they never had a lay off at xyz, so we got nothing to worry about.

Our operations have a thirty day contract with mainline to operate and maintain their feeder aircraft. The contract renews every thirty days. All they would have to do in the case of big layoffs at mainline, is offer to not renew the contracts unless the feeders allow mainline pilots to fly the planes. No railway act, no federal mediators, no nothing...it would be a done deal.

The mainline side is getting ready to start replacing three pilot planes with two pilot planes and freight is getting a little soft...so where will downsizing affect the "regional" or "feeder" side of flying next? Delta? United? FedEx?

 

[dondk]

this is slightly off the subject, but does sort of apply to Surplus1's and JohnDoe's remarks..

Correct me if I am wrong.. but doesn't NWA still have a red book/green book deal still going on..

I would expect the same "if" XJ and or PCL ever got a one list deal.

 

[JohnDoe]

Yes, there are still some red and green issues going on. Can't really comment too much on them, I'm not that familiar with it. I just continue to see it mentioned on the message board, and occasionally hear some pilots griping about it.


"I would expect the same "if" XJ and or PCL ever got a one list deal."

Yes, that could be interesting. A predominately turboprop list merged with a predominately turbojet list (and the associated payscales that go with the different types, kinda like the whole wide-body, narrow-body issue).

 

[avrodriverj85]

This one is for John Doe - just for a second let's put aside mainline vs regional and recognize that this can't be good for BOTH sides. I mean someone WILL take it in the shorts, and most likely it will be XJ and 9E. With this in mind, I thought it was ALPA's main responsibility to represent ALL of it's members equally and fairly? However, we all know it doesn't work this way.

Keep this in mind - you can fly those 70 seaters, but don't think for a minute you are going to just walk over to the XJ or 9E property and shove me out of the left seat without a fight, when you can't get everyone off furlough, (flying 70 seaters) and the NWA pilots want more of the pie.

We have reached a point where fair and equal representation doesn't apply to the regional pilot. Wake-up guys ! Stop dreaming of a seniority number at NWA. They are not going to give you one.

I feel like Noah warning my neighbors about the impending flood.

 

[727RedTails]

Hey Avrodriver,

Did you go to Mesaba thinking that would be your career? I hope not. Think about the fact that Mesaba is only in business to feed other airlines, (right now only nwa). That is your job! If you want to fly anything besides feeding other airlines leave Mesaba or talk your management into forming a new Independence Air. Then you can get all the 70 seaters you want.
The nwa pilots want to raise the bar for everyone including you. I have read the proposal. What is your proposal and how will it help our profession?

 

[JohnDoe]

You are right (and I'm sure you won't even believe that I am saying that). Somebody is going to take it "in the shorts." I too believe that Alpa cannot represent the interests of both mainline and regionals in the face of scope. The regionals, without a doubt, need their own union. Alot of people can see that, yet, in Alpa they remain. Also, when you say that Pinnacle and Mesaba are going to take it in the shorts, that implies that you believe the 70 seat flying is yours. Why is it anymore your's than mainline's?? Neither of you have had, or done, that size equipment flying (with the exception of the grandfathered avro's, and the current email specifically states "with the exception of the avros).

Another tidbit to add regarding scope: I find it ironic that you are screaming about scope, yet in your newest contract at Mesaba, you are scoping Big Sky from flying anything bigger than 19 seaters, I believe it is. Hey pot, this is the kettle......


"but don't think for a minute you are going to just walk over to the XJ or 9E property and shove me out of the left seat without a fight, when you can't get everyone off furlough"

Where on earth have you seen or read anything about shoving you out of your seat? From what I have read, the 70 seaters may not get everybody off of furlough. Even NW management has been quoted as saying the market for that size aircraft is not that large (Steenland said it I believe). Again, this is NOT a jet for jobs proposal. This is the NW MEC exercising their right to fly anything above 56 seats. A right that is in their contract. A contract agreed to by NW management. If you had that scope in your contracts, you would be doing the EXACT same thing.

As far as mainline vs regional........lets start calling it what it really is: Human vs. Human. Mainline vs regional is something people use to make their arguements look less selfish (on BOTH sides of the equation). Both groups, whether mainline or regional, represented by Alpa or other, are going to do what is in their best interest. Period. It is human nature. Anybody that says different is either living in la-la land, or is trying to make their cause look good.

 

[dondk]

Where on earth have you seen or read anything about shoving you out of your seat? From what I have read, the 70 seaters may not get everybody off of furlough. Even NW management has been quoted as saying the market for that size aircraft is not that large (Steenland said it I believe).

Depending on the staffing, it will solve most of the furloghee problem. 72 jets should cover at least a good 750 pilots, add planned retirements in the next 2-3 years, maybe a few handfulls may be left. I may be wrong, but I thought NWA only had just over 900 left on the street.

I don't quite buy there is not enough market for 70 seater's.. There are markets, the question is profitability. The same argument was used for CRJ's, Avro's and baby 9's... There are plenty of markets that need more than a CRJ and less than a baby 9. There are also markets where a baby 9 is overkill and we know which markets those are.

The Avro is great on certain markets, but if you add the range that the CRJ-700 will have to the Avro I am sure NWA marketing will find places for it to go. I find it funny how NWA always finds new markets for various equipment types.

The Airlink's do feed mainline flying.. that is something that seems to be forgotten by mainline pilot's.. We are all in this together... but as it was simply stated.. someone ( a group) is going to take it in the shorts..

 

[avrodriverj85]

Hey Avrodriver,

Did you go to Mesaba thinking that would be your career? I hope not.

Well no I didn't, but industry circumstance has created a glut and I am here to stay for awhile. But, am I suppose to sacrifice to protect your job at mainline? I don't think so.

Think about the fact that Mesaba is only in business to feed other airlines, (right now only nwa). That is your job! If you want to fly anything besides feeding other airlines leave Mesaba or talk your management into forming a new Independence Air. Then you can get all the 70 seaters you want.
The nwa pilots want to raise the bar for everyone including you. I have read the proposal. What is your proposal and how will it help our profession?

It's ironic that when times are good, you mainline guys are running around calling the CRJ's - smurf jets, barbie jets, etc. But when the crap is hitting the fan, all of a sudden those barbie jets look pretty tasty and you want a piece of the action. You're right, XJ is here to feed mainline, but as a professional pilot it's not my job to protect your job when you lose it. If you wanna play it that way, bring us all on the same seniority and we'll let the chips fall where they may...

 

[AnimalTale]

The only way to look is this is - us vs. them. NWA vs NWA Airlinks. If this agreement were to go thru, it threatens our growth and our future. Brand scope within the NWA family is an ALPA myth.

I think u r right. Be glad u work under NWA, rather than the black widow, UAL. At least the nwa mec, "thinks about" their feeders.

Also, remember your future and growth is limited at MEASABA or PCL. Your flying is there because of NWA. Your PAX are there because of NWA. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, you are flying because u r a staffing company. NWA is outsourcing "THEIR" flying to MESABA and PCL for cheaper labor.

Do not get me wrong< i have been at the regionals for many years. I think regional pilots are very good pilots but low payed pilots. Your future is brighter trying to get out and flying for the likes of SWA, FDX NWA etc (when they do start hiiring)

With 70 seaters at NWA, u will have a better chance to leave the "commutters" for a better lifestyle, if u want.

I am not flaim bating, these are the cold hard facts. Your future and growth are directly linked to NWA. They could dump u in a second, but NWA-MEC will not have that. (I flew with Westair, Ual dumped us without any opposition from mainline: NWA-MEC is different, trust me)

Adios-

 

[AnimalTale]

It's ironic that when times are good, you mainline guys are running around calling the CRJ's - smurf jets, barbie jets, etc. But when the crap is hitting the fan, all of a sudden those barbie jets look pretty tasty and you want a piece of the action. You're right, XJ is here to feed mainline, but as a professional pilot it's not my job to protect your job when you lose it. If you wanna play it that way, bring us all on the same seniority and we'll let the chips fall where they may...

I am not a mainline guy. So, nobody owes u a job! And CRJs are SMURF JETS. But when u have SMURF jets in at a mainline carrier, u get 17 days off consistently and your quality of life is better, guaranteed.

Put a 172 on at mainline and I will fly it. I promise u, MAinline flying is 10x better than regional flying. Especially that of PCL. 10 days off on reserve? 6 leg days? 12 hour duty days? threat of being dumped from express status? short overnnites? etc. Need I go on!

Oh by the way, because I do not fly for a major, I can say this. No matter how much a pillot says right now"I dont want to fly for the MAJORS" or " I decided to stay here because I knew the majors are in trouble" . The pilot is full of crap! At one point of time that pilot had a desire for a richer carreer (probably got rejected or did not get an interview) and now is pretending he/she never wanted a carreer in the majors.

Adios

 

[dondk]

I think u r right. Be glad u work under NWA, rather than the black widow, UAL. At least the nwa mec, "thinks about" their feeders.

Also, remember your future and growth is limited at MEASABA or PCL. Your flying is there because of NWA. Your PAX are there because of NWA. Hate to be the bearer of bad news, you are flying because u r a staffing company. NWA is outsourcing "THEIR" flying to MESABA and PCL for cheaper labor.

Your right to a point.. the aircraft they own (majority of them), some of the routes "they" own, some of the stations "they" own. Both Mesaba and PCL have their own stations, own routes that are XJ/9E specific, not owned by NWA.

Would we be in a world of hurt is NWA MEC pulled the plug? Absolutely, but then again so would NWA management. Unfortunately for NWA, XJ/9E are a necessary evil, we go places they cannot put a DC-9 into, we go places that cannot support mainline staffing ($$$$- stations and flight operation personnel). The stations/routes I am talking about do generate some significant income and market share (for the station/route). NWA is not likely to give up on market share when there are plenty of LCC's (and others) looking to take it away from NWA. Could we be replaced by NWA people? Surely, if NWA wanted to hire anymore people, which they don't. Could they ramp up and replace us completely? sure... but at what cost? Your right it is about the bottom dollar and we (airlinks) are cheaper. Being cheaper has its rewards for NWA though.. it is called profit... XJ/PCL have been turning some serious profits for NWA for sometime now.

With 70 seaters at NWA, u will have a better chance to leave the "commutters" for a better lifestyle, if u want.

At what price though? If NWA MEC finds a happy medium with management over the 70 seat issue.. every other major who has 70 seat aircraft in their regional fleet will be looking to do the same. All it will do is swap the mainline pilots on furlough to regional pilots on furlough.

Where could I go for a better lifestyle? No one is hiring in droves and if and when it does happen it is not going to be any of the majors. My lifestyle for the next 5 years is to position my current employer so I can have a better lifestyle than what I currently have.

I am not a mainline guy. So, nobody owes u a job! And CRJs are SMURF JETS. But when u have SMURF jets in at a mainline carrier, u get 17 days off consistently and your quality of life is better, guaranteed.

MAinline flying is 10x better than regional flying. Especially that of PCL. 10 days off on reserve? 6 leg days? 12 hour duty days? threat of being dumped from express status? short overnnites? etc. Need I go on!

While I work at an airlink.. I currently hold 17 days off, while I will agree the money could be better.. I hold better trips and days off than my counterparts at mainline. Those whom I know at mainline have less days off, the same lousy overnights (yes, they have crappy ovenights too, it is a NWA marketing thing) and while they don't do 6 leg days, they do 4 day trips for the same value I do in 3 days. I net an extra day off and they net time wandering in the terminal or at the hotel at those garden spots like BIS/LEX/ABE.

The difference between NWA mainline and the Airlinks is work rules and salary in a nutshell. We both have crappy schedules, we both fly to some garden spots, we both have short overnights and while we (airlinks) get the threats, mainline get's hit up for 1 billion dollars in concessions... No difference in my book.

The benefit.. the work rules/pay rates may increase in the RJ world, the price though will be paid by the regional pilots going to the unemployment line.

 

[JohnDoe]

Hey avrodriver:
I answered your question, so how about you answer mine (or are you only capable of spewing factless, emotion-based propaganda??) Exactly why do you feel the 70 seaters belong to Mesaba and Pinnacle?? You have never (except for the few avros) done that kind of flying, and nothing is being taken away from you. How is mainline doing the 70 seat flying screwing the Airlink's?? Unless something changes with mainline's contract, you wouldn't be getting it anyway.


quote:
"It's ironic that when times are good, you mainline guys are running around calling the CRJ's - smurf jets, barbie jets, etc. But when the crap is hitting the fan, all of a sudden those barbie jets look pretty tasty and you want a piece of the action."

Again, to this, I will say what I said before: Horsesh!t! A good portion of mainline newhires (everywhere) hired prior to the furloughs came from the regionals, and to imply that they (or anyone) wouldn't want to "lower" themselves and fly a CRJ is absurd. If the pay and workrules are right, I'd go back to flying a 172.


Finally, you should go back and read both of "AnimalTale's" posts 3 or 4 times. They hit the nail on the head.