Jepp Class B Charts & 200 Knots

[PapaK]

Clearly, there are some facilities that have an informal policy of deviating from the speed restrictions. We often reposition between VNY and SNA. Northbound, you had better be at or below 200 kts by 35 dme south of LAX. When coming in from the east, try to get recleared PSP-POM, avoiding the PDZ/V-16/POM. This change just skirts the northern edge of the Class B airspace. At least you can keep it up to 250 kts. Make sure that you get down to 8000' as directed because you are ducking under the CIVIT arrival to LAX. We all know that there are some locations around the country that make believe that these rules don't exist. Others enforce them with biblical vengence. What do you expect; it's the federal government.

When I have been directed to maintain a higher speed than 200 kts. I inform the next controller that "we were directed to maintain xxx kts by the previous controller". That controller may well have had a real need for us to do so.

Personally, I'd rather deal with all of these issues than fly through NORCAL airspace. I've never experienced a bigger group of screw-ups. Is this the primary training facility for all FAA ATC or what? I am routinely either held down or slam-dunked, regardless of the airport up there. They wanted me to hold 230 kts to an 8 mi final at SJC the other day, in real weather! They kept us at 5000' as well. Fotrunately, being superior airmen, we survived. Then ther was the night that they tried to clear us for the ILS to Santa Rosa with a 30 kt tailwind on fnal, in the rain. They were happy to give us the VOR app; they just had no clue as to what the weather was.

As for letting the F/O learn for himself, I would never let my F/O put MY license in jeopardy. Let him "live on the edge" when he makes Captain.

PapaK

 

[7KCAB]

Seems like in Atlanta ATC is more likely to say something on arriving and not say anything if you are on the way out at 200+ KTS. Our iLinc MFD has tops and bases of Class B airspace, which makes it easier.

 

[Prof. ATP]

Is this the primary training facility for all FAA ATC or what?

No, that would be Salt Lake, which usually leads the league in operational errors. It's much closer to the terrain, too, which adds to the excitement.

 

[ClassG]

Can anyone tell me what the 135 waiver is?

Classg

 

[t-bone]

what about when there isn't DME?

How do you guys determine whether or not you're below the bravo shelf when flying near PHL, where the bravo airspace is defined by the airport itself at the center, not a VOR with DME? (If I'm missing where it states the DME freq, my bad!!!) Our MFD's, for whatever reason, don't always show PHL so I can't just swag it using the 25 mile ring. We are usually repositioning to ILG, so I just make sure I'm at 200kts when within 5 DME of Modina and below 4000 ft. Any other ideas?

T

 

[av8er2]

Ever thought about why the heck it is 200kts. I can't say I have read why it is this way.

It sure sounds like most have a tough time figuring out exact postion. Sounds like the FAA needs to make it easier for the pilots to figure out postion if they are going to enforce this rule. There are many other things to focus on.

Most aircraft are very busy doing other safety related issues and should not be spending a lot of time wondering when to slow to 200. Half the time it will mess up the controller.

 

[stknrdr]

200kts

We use the jepp Class-B plate. If everyone is consistent with the rule, the sequencing will work for the controller that's not dialed-in on his regs. 5 miles in-trail into bigger airports can be seen on the TCAS to help you know if you need to slow more, or wait to slow to approach speed late to keep the interval. Let's face it, there's enough gotchas out there, why would you adhere to the 250 rule and not the 200 rule? And no FO is going to poke the sleeping ATC dog with a sharp stick when my name is in the flightplan box. 200 under the B it's professional.....period.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Ignore it in Atlanta and you'll get slammed. Rules are rules. What's that extra 50 knots going to do for you, especially over the short periof of time you're under the Class B. Do the math and you'll see it's only seconds saved versus 200 KIAS. Is that worth a violation or a=chewing?

Yea, and they will also slam ya for doing over 250 KIAS between 10,000 and 11,000, as the Class B there extends all the way up to 11,000. Those Howie Keefe VFR charts sure are helpful for places like ATL. I wish we had them where I work now.

 

[GIVDrvr]

Tbone
Use the ILS DME...the antennas are pretty close to geo ref center.

 

[BenderGonzales]

Inside class B at 11,000? Full speed ahead!

Cool-Hand,

There is no specific speed-limit for operation WITHIN class-B airspace (regardless of the altitude).

Therefore, you simply need only comply with 250 below 10. If class-B airspace extends above 10,000 it's perfectly legal to accelerate above 250 within it.

Here's 91.117. If you find a regulation that states otherwise please let me know:

Sec. 91.117 - Aircraft speed.
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).


(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).


(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Thanks Bender. I am not sure where I got that from. I remembered it being an issue at one point when I used to fly into/out of ATL all the time. Cheers!

Cool-Hand,

There is no specific speed-limit for operation WITHIN class-B airspace (regardless of the altitude).

Therefore, you simply need only comply with 250 below 10. If class-B airspace extends above 10,000 it's perfectly legal to accelerate above 250 within it.

Here's 91.117. If you find a regulation that states otherwise please let me know:

Sec. 91.117 - Aircraft speed.
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).


(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).


(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

[ClassG]

I'm going to bump this one back up again.

Based on 91.117 (c):


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots.....

it COULD be that as long as the aircraft is not within the airspace which defines an airport area "designated for an airport" which is underlying the Bravo, then one COULD exceed 200, KIAS.

Any thoughts?

My understanding is that this actually refers to the "Class B airspace area designated for (the Class B) airport." Anyone read it differently? It's very ambiguously written, but then, it's an FAR.

This discussion came up recently during a flight and I can't COMPLETELY dismiss the possibilty, except that EVERY conversation (ground school and otherwise) I have ever had about this reg has concluded that you can NOT exceed 200 below a Class B shelf unless the aircraft limitations require it.


ClassG

 

[G100driver]

Stick with your training. Too many people have been busted trying to overthink this.

I will agree, it is rather poorly written.

 

[Count Dracula]

How about the FAA publishing the required speed on an IFR Arrival into a Class B area. They publish the altitude restrictions at certain intersections, why not the speeds and take the guess work out of whether you are under Class B airspace or not. Otherwise, I am required to have the Arrival and Class B Chart out during a descent into densly populated airspace.

 

[hawkerjet]

LA has several gotcha's if you're not familiar. Blast off out of VNY to reposition to SNA, LGB or some other southern field and you will most likely intercept V186. There is a small stretch between VNY VOR and ADAMM intersection that falls underneath Class B when your level at 5000.
Coming back to the LA Basin from CRQ or SAN when the controller descends you below 10,000 to 7000 abeam SNA is another. I have marked these positions manually with my GPS which was a pain in the a&#. I've known of several 135 pilots bolo'ing their check rides with the Feds as a result of the 2 locations I mentioned above. It should be marked better on the victor airways.