Jepp Class B Charts & 200 Knots

[AZ Typed]

Last I checked the speed limit below the Class B airspace was 200 knots. Yet, many of the people I fly with (including myself) often ignore / have no idea of our position with regard to flying below the Class B enroute to a satellite airport.

Do you use the Jepp Class B charts to help with this problem?

Do you guess when you're under the "B" and it's time to slow to 200?

Do you just blast in at 250 until it's time to slow for confiuration?

Looking forward to your input...


AZT

 

[FishHunter]

I don't pull the Jepp papers but rather, before the flight I check it out on out EFB's.

From what I've seen most people don't adhere to the speed restrictions below class B or like you said they just are totally oblivious to the fact that they are under it. I feel like an ahole sometimes always telling guys to slow down coming into Orange County from the west or departing any number of satellite airports out there that fall under the restrictions.

Glad to see I'm not the only one!

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I don't pull the Jepp papers but rather, before the flight I check it out on out EFB's.

From what I've seen most people don't adhere to the speed restrictions below class B or like you said they just are totally oblivious to the fact that they are under it. I feel like an ahole sometimes always telling guys to slow down coming into Orange County from the west or departing any number of satellite airports out there that fall under the restrictions.

Glad to see I'm not the only one!

You're not the only one.
I bit my lip and kept to my policy of not micro-managing the f/o when he began accelerating under the class "B" in LA. Just as we were approaching 250K and I mentioned we may have a speed limit, ATC discretely advised our proximity to the Class B. The controller was cool, he didn't ask our speed or anything, it was just a very nice hint.
We were lucky we had a good guy on the scope.
I heard of a Metroliner crew in the Class B in LA that was asked to "keep your speed up". As they emerged from the class B (and still under a higher, class B area), the new controller asked for their airspeed, they replied 250K and they were violated.
Some rules I don't mind breaking. I just hate to DOCUMENT that I'm breaking the rules!

 

[moonlight]

Man, does this sound familiar! We were coming into SNA from over Catalina, and were to told to maintain 250 kts. After we crossed the shoreline, we just happened to be slowing down anyways, due to our proximity to the airport, and SoCal came on the horn and inquired about our speed. We were about 235 kts. at that point, and the controller, in a quick and short way told us that the speed limit was 200 kts. under Bravo. We didn't argue, just responded with a quick, "Our apologies, we are slowing immediately". Never heard anymore about it, but ever since I've been wary of airspace speed restrictions. Honestly, up to that point I'd never really thought much about it. I guess I always assumed (incorrectly, as usual) that being IFR essentially "got rid" of airspace classifications from a practical standpoint. Guess that old saying about wisdom and experience coming from bad decisions is true...

 

[cjdriver]

Ignore it in Atlanta and you'll get slammed. Rules are rules. What's that extra 50 knots going to do for you, especially over the short periof of time you're under the Class B. Do the math and you'll see it's only seconds saved versus 200 KIAS. Is that worth a violation or a=chewing?

 

[AA717driver]

I just swag it. If it's not a big airport (SAV, LIT, SHV, etc.) I just automatically slow down. TC

 

[GIVDrvr]

The main issue at SNA is that the arrivals are being sequenced in trail and the regulars know to slow and the less familiar crews do not resulting in 50 knot overtakes on the downwind. The controllers are really just being helpful in this scenario because when lateral separation is lost FAA management is going to go looking to pin the blame and nobody wants that letter in the mailbox.

 

[hawkerflyer]

I adhere to it. Coming into SDL, the design of the PHX B and usual altitude assignments coming in from the SE could have you at 250 then at 200 and back to 250. Actually had a Chicago approach controller a few years ago question my 200 kts. going into PWK when I knew I was below the B.

 

[falconpilot]

I just blast in at 250...Haven't been yelled at yet... Just kiddin... I slow down... Not just for the speed limit but also for all of the small aircraft around the satellite airports... And if my memory serves me correctly.... Isn't there a speed limit of 200kts at the corridor of the class B. How many of us observe that?

 

[THE Flying Ace]

We were just into PWK and chicago approach chewed our ass for slowing down. He wanted 250kts until advised. I guess in Chicago, ATC does what makes everybody fit in. It works well fitting in all that traffic.

 

[Bandit60]

Ignore it in Atlanta and you'll get slammed. Rules are rules. What's that extra 50 knots going to do for you, especially over the short periof of time you're under the Class B. Do the math and you'll see it's only seconds saved versus 200 KIAS. Is that worth a violation or a=chewing?

You are so right. Atlanta will slap you so hard if you do that.

 

[Downwind]

Just get the 135 waiver and don't worry about it.

 

[Munga]

Just remember, even ATC can't give you relief on the speed restriction. They try sometimes, but they actually do not have that authority unless it is for the safety of flight - thus those above who were reminded of their speed after being handed off. The only ones who get relief are those whose Vclean speed is above 200 - i.e. 737 at 210.

I would just ask the controller if he wants you to keep your speed up if he/she is asking you to go faster than 200 below the class B. I have done that in SJC and in SNA and both times they gave me a climb into the Class B so i could speed up.

 

[Excel'n]

Headed east from VNY? V186 between VNY and PDZ...250kts, 200kts, 250kts.

 

[Prof. ATP]

Do you use the Jepp Class B charts to help with this problem?

Do you guess when you're under the "B" and it's time to slow to 200?

AZT

I actually pull the chart but never seem to look at it in the heat of the moment so just guess when it's time to slow. But I do slow. Our former CP got called on it (no violation, just "ahem...") in the LA basin so now we are all careful.

 

[PapaK]

Clearly, there are some facilities that have an informal policy of deviating from the speed restrictions. We often reposition between VNY and SNA. Northbound, you had better be at or below 200 kts by 35 dme south of LAX. When coming in from the east, try to get recleared PSP-POM, avoiding the PDZ/V-16/POM. This change just skirts the northern edge of the Class B airspace. At least you can keep it up to 250 kts. Make sure that you get down to 8000' as directed because you are ducking under the CIVIT arrival to LAX. We all know that there are some locations around the country that make believe that these rules don't exist. Others enforce them with biblical vengence. What do you expect; it's the federal government.

When I have been directed to maintain a higher speed than 200 kts. I inform the next controller that "we were directed to maintain xxx kts by the previous controller". That controller may well have had a real need for us to do so.

Personally, I'd rather deal with all of these issues than fly through NORCAL airspace. I've never experienced a bigger group of screw-ups. Is this the primary training facility for all FAA ATC or what? I am routinely either held down or slam-dunked, regardless of the airport up there. They wanted me to hold 230 kts to an 8 mi final at SJC the other day, in real weather! They kept us at 5000' as well. Fotrunately, being superior airmen, we survived. Then ther was the night that they tried to clear us for the ILS to Santa Rosa with a 30 kt tailwind on fnal, in the rain. They were happy to give us the VOR app; they just had no clue as to what the weather was.

As for letting the F/O learn for himself, I would never let my F/O put MY license in jeopardy. Let him "live on the edge" when he makes Captain.

PapaK

 

[7KCAB]

Seems like in Atlanta ATC is more likely to say something on arriving and not say anything if you are on the way out at 200+ KTS. Our iLinc MFD has tops and bases of Class B airspace, which makes it easier.

 

[Prof. ATP]

Is this the primary training facility for all FAA ATC or what?

No, that would be Salt Lake, which usually leads the league in operational errors. It's much closer to the terrain, too, which adds to the excitement.

 

[ClassG]

Can anyone tell me what the 135 waiver is?

Classg

 

[t-bone]

what about when there isn't DME?

How do you guys determine whether or not you're below the bravo shelf when flying near PHL, where the bravo airspace is defined by the airport itself at the center, not a VOR with DME? (If I'm missing where it states the DME freq, my bad!!!) Our MFD's, for whatever reason, don't always show PHL so I can't just swag it using the 25 mile ring. We are usually repositioning to ILG, so I just make sure I'm at 200kts when within 5 DME of Modina and below 4000 ft. Any other ideas?

T

 

[av8er2]

Ever thought about why the heck it is 200kts. I can't say I have read why it is this way.

It sure sounds like most have a tough time figuring out exact postion. Sounds like the FAA needs to make it easier for the pilots to figure out postion if they are going to enforce this rule. There are many other things to focus on.

Most aircraft are very busy doing other safety related issues and should not be spending a lot of time wondering when to slow to 200. Half the time it will mess up the controller.

 

[stknrdr]

200kts

We use the jepp Class-B plate. If everyone is consistent with the rule, the sequencing will work for the controller that's not dialed-in on his regs. 5 miles in-trail into bigger airports can be seen on the TCAS to help you know if you need to slow more, or wait to slow to approach speed late to keep the interval. Let's face it, there's enough gotchas out there, why would you adhere to the 250 rule and not the 200 rule? And no FO is going to poke the sleeping ATC dog with a sharp stick when my name is in the flightplan box. 200 under the B it's professional.....period.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Ignore it in Atlanta and you'll get slammed. Rules are rules. What's that extra 50 knots going to do for you, especially over the short periof of time you're under the Class B. Do the math and you'll see it's only seconds saved versus 200 KIAS. Is that worth a violation or a=chewing?

Yea, and they will also slam ya for doing over 250 KIAS between 10,000 and 11,000, as the Class B there extends all the way up to 11,000. Those Howie Keefe VFR charts sure are helpful for places like ATL. I wish we had them where I work now.

 

[GIVDrvr]

Tbone
Use the ILS DME...the antennas are pretty close to geo ref center.

 

[BenderGonzales]

Inside class B at 11,000? Full speed ahead!

Cool-Hand,

There is no specific speed-limit for operation WITHIN class-B airspace (regardless of the altitude).

Therefore, you simply need only comply with 250 below 10. If class-B airspace extends above 10,000 it's perfectly legal to accelerate above 250 within it.

Here's 91.117. If you find a regulation that states otherwise please let me know:

Sec. 91.117 - Aircraft speed.
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).


(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).


(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Thanks Bender. I am not sure where I got that from. I remembered it being an issue at one point when I used to fly into/out of ATL all the time. Cheers!

Cool-Hand,

There is no specific speed-limit for operation WITHIN class-B airspace (regardless of the altitude).

Therefore, you simply need only comply with 250 below 10. If class-B airspace extends above 10,000 it's perfectly legal to accelerate above 250 within it.

Here's 91.117. If you find a regulation that states otherwise please let me know:

Sec. 91.117 - Aircraft speed.
(a) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may operate an aircraft below 10,000 feet MSL at an indicated airspeed of more than 250 knots (288 m.p.h.).


(b) Unless otherwise authorized or required by ATC, no person may operate an aircraft at or below 2,500 feet above the surface within 4 nautical miles of the primary airport of a Class C or Class D airspace area at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph.). This paragraph (b) does not apply to any operations within a Class B airspace area. Such operations shall comply with paragraph (a) of this section.


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots (230 mph).


(d) If the minimum safe airspeed for any particular operation is greater than the maximum speed prescribed in this section, the aircraft may be operated at that minimum speed.

 

[ClassG]

I'm going to bump this one back up again.

Based on 91.117 (c):


(c) No person may operate an aircraft in the airspace underlying a Class B airspace area designated for an airport or in a VFR corridor designated through such a Class B airspace area, at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots.....

it COULD be that as long as the aircraft is not within the airspace which defines an airport area "designated for an airport" which is underlying the Bravo, then one COULD exceed 200, KIAS.

Any thoughts?

My understanding is that this actually refers to the "Class B airspace area designated for (the Class B) airport." Anyone read it differently? It's very ambiguously written, but then, it's an FAR.

This discussion came up recently during a flight and I can't COMPLETELY dismiss the possibilty, except that EVERY conversation (ground school and otherwise) I have ever had about this reg has concluded that you can NOT exceed 200 below a Class B shelf unless the aircraft limitations require it.


ClassG

 

[G100driver]

Stick with your training. Too many people have been busted trying to overthink this.

I will agree, it is rather poorly written.

 

[Count Dracula]

How about the FAA publishing the required speed on an IFR Arrival into a Class B area. They publish the altitude restrictions at certain intersections, why not the speeds and take the guess work out of whether you are under Class B airspace or not. Otherwise, I am required to have the Arrival and Class B Chart out during a descent into densly populated airspace.

 

[hawkerjet]

LA has several gotcha's if you're not familiar. Blast off out of VNY to reposition to SNA, LGB or some other southern field and you will most likely intercept V186. There is a small stretch between VNY VOR and ADAMM intersection that falls underneath Class B when your level at 5000.
Coming back to the LA Basin from CRQ or SAN when the controller descends you below 10,000 to 7000 abeam SNA is another. I have marked these positions manually with my GPS which was a pain in the a&#. I've known of several 135 pilots bolo'ing their check rides with the Feds as a result of the 2 locations I mentioned above. It should be marked better on the victor airways.