JBLU cuts 5 Yr. Pilots, Fact or Fiction?

[TonyC]

Thanks Tony,

A few more questions for you:

What is in the contract (if you can disclose some of its contents)?

Are these contracts in place to keep the pilots from leaving Jetblue for another carrier once they are trained?

If not, what is the purpose of the contract?

Are these contracts different from pilot to pilot? I.e. wages, work rules, length of contract

What happens when the contract expires?

Thanks!

I can send you a copy of the contract I have if you'll PM me an e-mail address. There's really nothing unusual about it except JetBlue pilots seem to want to be secretive about it.

I'm not a JetBlue "crewmember" - pilot, management, or otherwise - so I can't speak to the intent or purpose of the contract. It looks to me like a low-cost way of making pilots feel a sense of security in an At-will employment arrangement. Although there is no verbiage that specifically refers to training and then going to fly somewhere else (no "No Compete" clause like many refer to) I don't see a way for a JetBlue pilot to get out the contract before the 5 years has expired.

As far as I know the contracts are the same. Later versions probably have higher pay rates than the original contracts, but they stipulate that if pay rates are raised for anyone, they're raised for everyone, so everyone's treated the same.

The contract doesn't exactly expire. From Paragraph 1, EMPLOYMENT AND TERM, "Unless either the Airline or the Pilot provides notice within three (3) months of the Agreement expiration date, this Agreement will automatically renew for additional five (5) year periods subject to a revised pay schedule as listed in Addendum A to this Agreement."

 

[B6Busdriver]

From what I have heard from high up people inside the company was that many Captains expressed interest in jumping over to the EMB-190 so they could live closer to home. They said that the captains were told that the pay would be less but they were still all for it. I don't think that the captains that expressed interest in this knew the pay rates were going to be this low though.

Seeing that the airplanes will initially be based in JFK that wouldn't make much sense now would it?

 

[jbucpt]

I'm not a JetBlue "crewmember" - pilot, management, or otherwise - so I can't speak to the intent or purpose of the contract. It looks to me like a low-cost way of making pilots feel a sense of security in an At-will employment arrangement.

hey tony,

where is the "COLLECTIVE BARGAINING" for your beloved ALPA members when they have to GIVE BACK their COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT??

-------

a great ALPA STATESMAN once said: "We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has"

 

[FLB717]

JBUCapt,

The day the JetBlue has the same problems as Delta or American I bet that ol' Dave would redo your "Contract" in a New York minute. Most all these guys go to the same "Screw your pilot class if you need something 101", if you think not than that is your thoughts. But at a growing and or young company the powers that be need you to help them make things work. The proof is when the fun stops. No one gives back a CBA, it is taken through a long process that uses numbers like 11 and 7. Yours on the other hand would not requier those numbers. Why you don't have a CBA to start with.

p.s. I am not ALPA, thank God.

 

[jbucpt]

JBUCapt,

. No one gives back a CBA, it is taken through a long process that uses numbers like 11 and 7. Yours on the other hand would not requier those numbers. Why you don't have a CBA to start with.

p.s. I am not ALPA, thank God.

so then what do call the actions taken by the american airline pilots, or what the delta pilots are going to do??? a "donation" to the company??

---------

a great ALPA STATESMAN once said: "We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has"

 

[nitrogen]

JBLU mania

The JBLU guys are largely considered the sell outs of the industry.

To operate a non union pilot group using a 5 yr contract is simply a union busting move. After getting enough BuFu s and figuring out that if you ever want a decent life you MUST have a Collective Bargaining Agreement some guy is gonna try to bring a union in here. And you know whats gonna happen? He's not gonna get his contract renewed. Pure and simple. They arent exactly gonna fire him. They just aren't gonna 'renew' his employment. The party ended at JBLU long ago when the stock price headed south and reality set in on the work rules issues. The only question now is how much more damage they can do to this ailing industry while theyre here.

US Airways, United, Jetblue...............somethings gotta give.

4 years from now at least 1 and maybe all three of these companies won't exist. If JBLU is still around it will only be because they finally COMPLETELY destroyed the piloting profession. Even the SWA guys think theyre a joke.

 

[DonVerita]

jbucpt wrote: "so then what do call the actions taken by the american airline pilots, or what the delta pilots are going to do??? a 'donation' to the company??"

---------

The operative word here would be "voluntary". The AA and DAL pilots are voluntarily taking pay cuts, albeit as a last resort, to avoid bankruptcy proceedings. As an alternative they could adopt a "Max Pay to the Last Day" stance and that would be their perogative. They have the legal grounds to make a choice. jetBlue pilots on the other hand, do not. You have no contract therefore you have no legal recourse to protect your wages from stagnation/reduction and/or your position from termination. Management may do what they want with you, your pay, your working conditions, etc. and there is nothing you can do about it. I am not trying to flame; just stating a relevant fact.

Perhaps you guys might want to consider unionizing in some form so that you may at least get some legal protections in place. It doesn't matter if it is a national or in-house union. Just get some kind of CBA in place, even if it is basic, and then build upon it as time goes by.

 

[lowecur]

It's all about supply and demand gumby. When pilot pay is high and there is an industry shortage, they: 1. Start their own proprietary schools 2. Private Schools pop up 3. The military can't compete with the high salaries, and pilots don't re-up.

The above leads to oversupply and salaries fall. All the unions in the world can't hold back capitalism.

If you want to make money, go be a mechanic. I would guess there is a shortage if these people are getting $35-40 per hour. Ever wonder why UAIR's mech's never offer to give up anything? They know if the airline fails, they will have jobs somewhere. Certainly not true of the pilots.
Just my three cents.

 

[jbucpt]

jbucpt wrote: "so then what do call the actions taken by the american airline pilots, or what the delta pilots are going to do??? a 'donation' to the company??"

---------

The operative word here would be "voluntary". The AA and DAL pilots are voluntarily taking pay cuts, albeit as a last resort, to avoid bankruptcy proceedings. As an alternative they could adopt a "Max Pay to the Last Day" stance and that would be their perogative. They have the legal grounds to make a choice. jetBlue pilots on the other hand, do not. You have no contract therefore you have no legal recourse to protect your wages from stagnation/reduction and/or your position from termination. Management may do what they want with you, your pay, your working conditions, etc. and there is nothing you can do about it. I am not trying to flame; just stating a relevant fact.

Perhaps you guys might want to consider unionizing in some form so that you may at least get some legal protections in place. It doesn't matter if it is a national or in-house union. Just get some kind of CBA in place, even if it is basic, and then build upon it as time goes by.

a CBA guarantee's you nothing. it does not guarantee you wage protection, it does not guarantee you furlough protection, it does not guarantee you a pension plan.. so please stop with the ALPA KOOD-AID by stating that the jbu pilots are helpless without one.

ask a UNITED, USAIR , DELTA, TWA pilot how they feel about their "collective bargaining power"......

------
a great ALPA STATESMAN once said: "We don't want to kill the golden goose; we just want to choke it by the neck until it gives us every last egg it has"

 

[Ace757]

Seeing that the airplanes will initially be based in JFK that wouldn't make much sense now would it?

B6Busdriver, That info came directly from AL.

 

[TonyC]

hey tony,

where is the "COLLECTIVE BARGAINING" for your beloved ALPA members when they have to GIVE BACK their COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT??

Ignorance, lack of information, or self-imposed blindness? I don't know which of these maladies you suffer, but your last three posts bely a fundamental lack of understanding on your part, or a refusal to admit what you know.

There is no "Give back" of a Collective Bargaining Agreement. Under the Railway Labor Act, the CBA remains in effect until amended or replaced. Nobody "gives back" a CBA. Many of our ALPA brothers have found themselves in the unfortunate situation of negotiating lower pay rates and inferior work rules, but the keyword remains the same - -negotiate.

Talk to us about the negotation that ocurred with your RJ payrates. Tell us how you're going to negotiate your next workrule change.

so then what do call the actions taken by the american airline pilots, or what the delta pilots are going to do??? a "donation" to the company??

Pay attention here - - it's real simple.

Here's what it's called...


Ready???





N E G O T I A T I O N



(HINT: Something a JBLU pilot can't do.)

a CBA guarantee's you nothing. it does not guarantee you wage protection, it does not guarantee you furlough protection, it does not guarantee you a pension plan.. so please stop with the ALPA KOOD-AID by stating that the jbu pilots are helpless without one.

ask a UNITED, USAIR , DELTA, TWA pilot how they feel about their "collective bargaining power"......

Negatory, good buddy. The Railway Labor Act maintains that the CBA reamins in effect until amended or superceded.

Pay - guaranteed

Furlough protection - depends on how the CBA is worded, but whatever is in the CBA is guaranteed

Pension plan - same as furlough - guaranteed

Before you get your panties in a wad, yes, you're right, if the Company goes bankrupt or out of business, then the CBA can't possibly guarantee ANYTHING - - pay, furlough, pension - - that SHOULD go without saying, but I'm sure you'll say it, so there's your answer already - - and in a run-on sentence at THAT! I ask you, though: how does that differ from an At-Will employee? Will an At-Will employee get any of those guarantees if the company goes under?



Now, before you accuse me of drinking ALPA KOOL-AID (Oh, the irony is thick here) go back and read my posts. Where did I say you were helpless without a CBA?

(HINT: Nowhere)

I did say that you are At-Will employees. The fact of the matter is, you're just a little bit better off than an At-Will employee since you have your Pilot Employment Contract. An At-Will employee could be termintated because he parted his hair on the wrong side, wore the wrong cologne, or for no reason at all - - as long as it doesn't violate those pesky Equal Employment guidelines, you know. At least you have some restrictions on THAT.


Now, as to what those pilots think about their CBA's? Well, I'll bet you a billion dollars that without their CBA's, Delta pilots would be making less than 60% of what they're making today. Without the CBA, hundreds more Delta pilots would be unemployed. Without the CBA's, all of those pilots you mentioned would be FAR worse off. All of those pilot groups have weathered terrible times at their companies, and their CBA's have helped them weather those times. I do not for a milisecond think they would be better off without their CBA's. The CBA's did not hurt the companies. The unions did not hurt the companies. The Economy, poor management strategies, and terrorism have hurt the companies.


Now, if you stop being so defensive and analyze what I've written, you'll realize I haven't bashed you or your contract. In fact, I think it's a bit generous in some respects. I answered some honest questions with straightforward answers - - that seems to be something you and many of your fellow crewmembers are hesitant to do. A Shakespeare quote comes to mind about protesteth(-ing) too much. (I hated that Shakespeare stuff - - seems to me he's WAY overrated, but that's another forum )

 

[B6Busdriver]

B6Busdriver, That info came directly from AL.

AL or Al?

 

[Ace757]

AL or Al?

It was Al

 

[B6Busdriver]

It was Al

Well then not true. The airplane will be initially based in JFK. It isn't possible to guarantee where future bases will exist on a brand new airplane.

 

[B6Busdriver]

The JBLU guys are largely considered the sell outs of the industry.

To operate a non union pilot group using a 5 yr contract is simply a union busting move. After getting enough BuFu s and figuring out that if you ever want a decent life you MUST have a Collective Bargaining Agreement some guy is gonna try to bring a union in here. And you know whats gonna happen? He's not gonna get his contract renewed. Pure and simple. They arent exactly gonna fire him. They just aren't gonna 'renew' his employment. The party ended at JBLU long ago when the stock price headed south and reality set in on the work rules issues. The only question now is how much more damage they can do to this ailing industry while theyre here.

US Airways, United, Jetblue...............somethings gotta give.

4 years from now at least 1 and maybe all three of these companies won't exist. If JBLU is still around it will only be because they finally COMPLETELY destroyed the piloting profession. Even the SWA guys think theyre a joke.

Anyone interested in responding to his post please review his vitriolic and sarcastic snippets from the past.

 

[FLB717]

Nitro,

First I understand your point of reference, but i would be more than blown over if Jetblue was gone in 5 years. I don't see it.

Jblucapt,

My friend you have a great company and i am sure if you can from another 121 airline you had a bad time with ALPA. or if you wandered in from your F15 you need to read and understand the Railway labor Act. It is a VERY dry read but well worth you time. Lay off the Blue-Aid for the time you read the law to get a clear understanding of your rights and lack of from that act. But understand I do feel you and the others of JBLU have a great company, good pay (but the EJ) so while I stand with that thought, Im just asking you too keep the eye on the ball. because with no CBA, fortunes of today have far less strength to see you in the future. I for one though do not see JBLU as a sell out, many other companies and pilot groups share that honor far and above JBLU or AAI.

DonV and Tony, yup!

 

[wndshr]

too funny

funny thing is that all of these guys trashing JB on this board would give a left cohuna to work there!!! ironic! LOL

what is it? 10,000 apps on file WITH quals!

 

[FLB717]

True Dat!

 

[TonyC]

funny thing is that all of these guys trashing JB on this board would give a left cohuna to work there!!! ironic! LOL

Yeah, like me. I'd emasculate myself to take a 70% cut in pay, give up all of my workrules, trash my retirement, and enter the independent contractor market so I could fly French jets with satellite TV! Whoopie!


NOT



Seriously... I believe that was BIT of an egotistical thing to claim.

 

[lowecur]

Yeah, like me. I'd emasculate myself to take a 70% cut in pay, give up all of my workrules, trash my retirement, and enter the independent contractor market so I could fly French jets with satellite TV! Whoopie!


NOT



Seriously... I believe that was BIT of an egotistical thing to claim.

Hey, somebodies got to work the graveyard shift. Just how do you have any kind of a sleep schedule unless you are a full-time night owl?

Before you gloat too much, let me just make one of my predictions. In the market there is a phrase they use when the market goes down. They say eventually the market "gets them all." It's used when some individual companies feel they are immune to the overall cycle. Don't be so smug, you can bet the cargo business will feel this eventually. All you need is one company to get the ball rolling, like DHL.

 

[Capn Mike]

Yeah, like me. I'd emasculate myself to take a 70% cut in pay, give up all of my workrules, trash my retirement, and enter the independent contractor market so I could fly French jets with satellite TV! Whoopie!


NOT



Seriously... I believe that was BIT of an egotistical thing to claim.

Tony,

I have heard several times that the average life expectancy for a retired Fedex pilot is only 65 due to the schedule. Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, how does that affect your quality of life now, when facing that potential life altering event?

Just wondering,

Mike

 

[TonyC]

Hey, somebodies got to work the graveyard shift. Just how do you have any kind of a sleep schedule unless you are a full-time night owl?

Before you gloat too much, let me just make one of my predictions. In the market there is a phrase they use when the market goes down. They say eventually the market "gets them all." It's used when some individual companies feel they are immune to the overall cycle. Don't be so smug, you can bet the cargo business will feel this eventually. All you need is one company to get the ball rolling, like DHL.

Once again you've chosen to delve into a subject about which you are totally ignorant.

I made no predictions, make no predictions, and don't care a scintilla about your predictions. I responded to an preposterous claim that everyone who criticizes JetBlue would give a testicle to work for them. If you fail to see the idiocy of THAT claim, I don't have time to tutor you.

 

[TonyC]

Tony,

I have heard several times that the average life expectancy for a retired Fedex pilot is only 65 due to the schedule. Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, how does that affect your quality of life now, when facing that potential life altering event?

Just wondering,

Mike

I don't know if there's truth to the rumor - - I certainly don't consider myself in a position to lend credence to the rumor or to contradict it. Either way, what might happen to me when I'm 65 has no more effect on my quality of life today than does the type of diapers my mother chose to use when I was an infant.

My quality of life today is determined by the choices I make today. Was there something specific you were "wondering" about?


Did you also miss the ridiculous claim that anyone who criticizes JetBlue would - - wait a sec, let me quote here...

would give a left cohuna to work there!!! ironic! LOL

That tactic usually appears when the substance runs out.

 

[AlbieF15]

Um...

I know 3 pilots personally who passed on JetBlue to come to FedEx in 2002, myself incuded. Last I checked both...ah..Kahunas?...were in place and functional.

Another I know (hint: board regular) passed on his interview at FedEx because he was quite happy after 3 months at JB and decided to give it his 100%. I know of a FedEx poolie who is happily employed at jetBlue (and appears to be staying there.) There are lots of ways to be happy in this business, and there isn't a "right" or "wrong" way. I think if you enjoy wearing something with a company logo to a family gathering or weekend event, you are at the right company. If you aren't, or you are envious of someone else, maybe its time to update those apps...

There are some brutal flights at FedEx. However, there are also some delicious trips too. Last month I was checking into an Oakland hotel after a 62 hour Reno layover and a 45 minute flight (only leg of the day....time 1930 local) into OAK. A former client of mine, now a JetBlue FO, was bouncing out the door around 2100 that evening for a transcon back to JFK on the "back side of the clock" after short layover. Yes...I was on a "senior" trip, and he was on likely a "junior" trip, but my point is getting in a urinary joust over who has it "better" or "worse", who flys at night, or who will "live longer" is rediculous. Good and bad are relative. I don't want a Flint layover, but if you live up there those trips rock. Some guys like the night ops, but if you are a day fan (and I am...) about 45% or so of our flying is afternoon and early evening stuff. So FDX bashers...get your facts before you start throwing out garbage.

Want to live a long life?--fly safely, take care of yourself, and go pick the right parents with the best genes for longevity.

As for arrogance--both FedEX and JetBlue have it good right now. However, I've flown with Captains who were Ex-Eastern or Brannif and I have a Guard unit stuffed with guys furloughed from American, Delta, and United. Anyone who thinks they are immune from a changing economy, mismanagement, bad luck, mergers, etc is just whistling past a graveyard. I'd keep those second job skills polished. I sincerely hope to be a healthy, happy 60 with a good retirement from FDX, and I know a lot of guys at JetBlue hope for continuing expansion in the company and a healthy growth for stock options, 401ks, etc etc. However, ANY of us are a bad physical from being out of business, so if I were you I'd work on promoting the good karma out there and not getting wrapped up in a lot of negativity.

One concern I do have is right now the JetBlue clients I've helped have been more or less interchangable with FedEx and SWA folks as far as talent, experience, and motiviation. If JetBlue growth does slow, and the new 190 rates don't "pop" a bit, the ability to compete for new hires will be diminished. You may not think that is important now, but think about how far JB has gotten so far on the talent and motivation of its workforce. You might see the level of talent go down in the future, as well as the return of some furloughees to other majors if things continue this direction.

 

[holdon]

"There are some brutal flights at FedEx. However, there are also some delicious trips too. Last month I was checking into an Oakland hotel after a 62 hour Reno layover and a 45 minute flight (only leg of the day....time 1930 local) into OAK. A former client of mine, now a JetBlue FO, was bouncing out the door around 2100 that evening for a transcon back to JFK on the "back side of the clock" after short layover. Yes...I was on a "senior" trip, and he was on likely a "junior" trip, but my point is getting in a urinary joust over who has it "better" or "worse", who flys at night, or who will "live longer" is rediculous."


Hey Albie, it was good seeing you that night!!! Thanks again for all your help and tell that lovely bride of yours thanks as well! By the way, pretty Junior line holder at JB and yes we do a LOT of "backside of the clock" flying. I would almost bet as much if not more than any other Pax airline out there (at least that's how I feel now!! And yes your right, there is nothing that makes a JB pilot "Better" than a DL, FDx, Mesa or Great Lakes pilot or vis-versa. We're all cut from the same cloth and just doing what we love.

Blue Skies..........

 

[klhoard]

FedEx schedules. . .

Tony,

I have heard several times that the average life expectancy for a retired Fedex pilot is only 65 due to the schedule. Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, how does that affect your quality of life now, when facing that potential life altering event?

Just wondering,

Mike

Capn,

Since almost half of our departures are now daytime, once you get a little seniority you can have a pretty sweet QOL.

Just in case you're curious.

 

[TonyC]

Capn,

Since almost half of our departures are now daytime, once you get a little seniority you can have a pretty sweet QOL.

Just in case you're curious.

Keith,

I didn't get the impression he was curious. I got the impression that he was launching a, as Albie said, urinary joust, and I chose not to engage.

I guess the sarcasm in my response to the "left cohuna" post was lost somewhere along the way.



Oh well. Nothing new....

 

[Capn Mike]

Keith,

I didn't get the impression he was curious. I got the impression that he was launching a, as Albie said, urinary joust, and I chose not to engage.

Well you got the wrong impression there. No "urinary joust was intended. I saw the Fedex A/C next to your name and it reminded me of what I HAD heard in the past. That is why the just wondering was added. Guess I should have posted it somewhere else or just sent you a PM to answer my question.

I do plenty of back of the clock flying myself. That is by choice because it tends to be more productive which allows me to have more time off for my relative seniority. I was interested to know if there was a known trend, but obviously there is not.

Capn Mike

 

[TonyC]

Well you got the wrong impression there. No "urinary joust was intended. I saw the Fedex A/C next to your name and it reminded me of what I HAD heard in the past. That is why the just wondering was added. Guess I should have posted it somewhere else or just sent you a PM to answer my question.

I do plenty of back of the clock flying myself. That is by choice because it tends to be more productive which allows me to have more time off for my relative seniority. I was interested to know if there was a known trend, but obviously there is not.

Capn Mike

I'm sorry if I got the wrong impression; thanks for correcting me. Given the spirit of the thread, you might understand how I might have been predisposed to suspect your intentions.

I doubt that disturbing one's natural sleep cycle can be beneficial to one's health. And yet, people across a wide variety of industries do just that. We do the best we can, and enjoy today for today. Tomorrow is never guaranteed, at any age.

 

[steamgauge]

There's an old Flying Tigers study that pegged the number at 51.8 average (mean?) age of mortality. Things have changed over the last few years due to CONTRACTS. Lots of NASA studies over the last few years. That information has helped in negotiations.

I like flying at night. Maybe I'll live longer than the stressed out pilot that flies 7 legs per day. Who knows? I'll let you know. YMMV. My current 85 hour layover is sweet.

Tony,

I have heard several times that the average life expectancy for a retired Fedex pilot is only 65 due to the schedule. Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, how does that affect your quality of life now, when facing that potential life altering event?

Just wondering,

Mike