JB v/s SWA

[curtaindriver]

I'll join the arguement with a few modifications.

ATA flies The B737-800's from LAX, ONT, and OAK to HNL, OGG, and ITO, and B757's from PHX and LAS to OGG and HNL. We are full! Matter of fact almost too full. The B757's are, by far, the superior airplane. It is nothing like a B737. Most of these flights, while codeshare, do not connect with a soutwest flight back on the mainland. If SWA is smart they won't even bother trying long, overwater flying with a B737. N. Amer. international? Sure.

B6. That place makes me nervous. Probably showed in the interview, too. No sweat off my back. It probably didn't help that I'm from Texas, live in Dallas, and I'm typed and current on the B73. Also didn't make me too comfortable in their managment meet-n-greet room. Their answers to questions didn't make me feel very confident. I've heard similarly weak answers before. I've flown B6 once. To the interview. I didn't get that warm and fuzzy feeling from them, either. I also sat in the only seat where the TV didn't work. I slid over to one that worked. (Could this be a developing problem here?) Fleet commonality or not, (I mean, how different can one Airbus be from the next, right?) you don't grow as rapidly as JetBlue and give back airplanes that quickly. If B6's intent is to be a holding company, and take the olderplanes offline to lease to someone else who will take care of the management and maintenance, then fine, but that's putting more irons into an already crowded fire. Someone's gonna get burnt.

JetBlue is a fine company. I'm glad there are folks happy to be there, and busting their a$$es to make it work, but I don't think it's the airline to emulate. They got a ton free national press, right from the get-go. Probably helps having George Soros front you the money. They've ordered too many airplanes too quickly, and they have to put them somewhere. It seems that they've hinged their future on the E-190. You're gonna start limiting yourself by doing that. Yes, it flies a pretty long way, but what kind of payload can it handle with any kind of range? This includes freight. The B737-800's can't fly a full load of people to HI and take any kind of freight load. The B757's can! Even out of PHX and LAS.

I'd rather work for a mature airline with leadership and plans, the a maturing airline with uncertain unproven leadership and plans. If Neelemen sticks it out for the long-term, and they still make money with pilots topped on their seniority list, I reserve the right to change my mind. That will be, what, six years form now?

Did you use those same "modification" tactics when choosing to go to ATA.....I'm glad you are nervous for us at JetBlue. I hope those "superior" and "almost too full" 757's keep doing well for you, they seem to be doing a ton of good now.

CD

 

[zonker]

As previous SW poster said, even brand new reserve guys get 16 days off and a 95 hour guarantee.
My life doesn't suck, I just get a little wound up:0 ! And people making big decisions need facts about this stuff.

Right. And in 2 years that guy will still be a first officer and I'll still be a captain. See the difference? No doubt it's a better deal at SWA, but I'm not too disturbed with my lot in life, either.

 

[JP4user]

Understand these are potential savings.. I am not saying that JB came up with ideas to save money flipped a switch and put 140 million into their pockets. What i am saying is that the company has established policies and procedures that could potentially save the company that amount.


Let me give you an example:

Lets say you have 100 planes.

For example lets say that you have 95 employees per plane and if you average the salaries of all areas of the company lets say the average salary per employee is $65,000.

That comes out to $617,500,000 in payroll.

As deliveries come in the company streamlines their employee base to a level that is similiar to Airtran ( Around 65) or Southwest (Around 80) but for simplicity sake lets use the same 100 airplane amount

Now take 80 employees per plane at $65,000 x 100 planes and you get $520,000,000 in payroll.

The hypothetical savings is approximately $97,500,000 per year. Now lets say that the company expands to 200 planes offset the additional salary expense as the workgroup matures and you can see that there is a potential yearly savings of 100 million or more.

Jetblue has a very lean operation but we are overstaffed in many places to deal with the rapid growth that jb has experienced over the last 6 years.

As for the 40 million I discussed above: JB is aiming for over 80% use of single engine taxi, We already use a lower Thrust Reduction Altitude, Enter Updated Winds into the MCDU, Fly at Optimum Altitudes when possible, Use of Flaps 3 for landings, Limit use of APU on ground, lowering min fuel at some airports when the weather is good we are even modifying the jetbridges to allow us to hook up the ground power prior to them being secured on the plane with the door open. That will alllow us to get the engine shut down down anywhere from 60-120 seconds sooner. At $10 per min at idle and a svings of $10-$20 per flt x 146,000 that alone could save nearly 3 million per year!

Now we have just over 400 flights per day..

Do the math that is about 146,000 flights per year

Take $40 million and divide it out and it is about $273 per flight or about 125 gallons of gas. Peanuts when you consider nearly 5000 gallons of burn on a transcon.

I take my hat off to JB We are all aware of where the legacies started out with the quest to save money..

Will your focus groups be using these financial theories and data to talk to the lenders financing your replacement Airbus aircraft? Where does these slick theories fit in with selling 6 y/o aircraft for $20M and getting new ones at $60M per copy?

 

[JP4user]

When the hiring winds up and the musical chairs stop at Blue, how does those 190 rates compare with SWA pay? I keep seeing the A320 talked about but not the obvious Blue elephant that they don't like to discuss. They get mighty testy about that subject when it is brought up. I don't blame them.

 

[Deli Guy]

This message is hidden because JP4user is on your ignore list.

Priceless

 

[Longhorn]

Guy...thank you. This thread had gone 7 pages now and I have only had to delete a few flamebait posts. Great discussion and debate and it has not turned sour yet. From a mods perspective its nice to see that FI can still be a place for good debate. Keep it up.

 

[clickclickboom]

Will your focus groups be using these financial theories and data to talk to the lenders financing your replacement Airbus aircraft? Where does these slick theories fit in with selling 6 y/o aircraft for $20M and getting new ones at $60M per copy?

Dont know I do not work in finance I work in the front office and digest the info as it is presented

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Agreed. Rsv at home would be great. I don't live in cal.
OAK should have been the base in the first place, but I think we were keeping our distance from SWA. Also, I think DN thought we would water LGB's eyes with our service and they would increase the slots. Despite the fact that the UPS 767 makes more noise than our whole fleet, the hairy-legged, sandal wearers (and those are the women) continue to limit our growth in LGB.
What kind of incentive is VA offering? Why leave JB to take such a big paycut?

Chance to live in base. Stock maybe? Seniority for life (ha -- if they make it). New airbii (ha, again, those 6 year models are so ... "nineties"). Overheard the dude telling another pilot he didn't actually want to leave, but the chance to be based in his home was worth the pay cut.

Curious though, why are you a rsv ca in lgb if you don't live there? Even the janitors at the Orlando center know a ca in lgb is gonna be on reserve forever. That seems like a rookie mistake or maybe you have some type of strategy? Flying with a former lgb fo, now jfk ca. Was on rsv in jfk for 10 months. What's the deal?

 

[Bavarian Chef]

You didn't major in math in college, did you?

If you actually saved $40MM this year, JBLU would break even for the year, even after your $42MM loss in the first quarter. News Flash: Not.

If you were to save $100MM, you would earn more profit for the year than LUV. Double news flash: Not.

In 2005, JBLU's TOTAL REVENUE was only $1,700MM and you're telling me that pilot-induced cost savings are going to save $100MM? Twenty percent of your entire cost structure (unfortunately, JBLUs costs are higher than revenue) is going to be saved?

That would send your profit margin through the roof, better than all of the other airlines combined. Not.

Your figures are wrong.

Could be wrong, but I expect that the numbers in the second quarter will be quite positive. Who knows. LF down, but yield up.

SWA made less than 100 mil last year? I thought they made more.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Guy...thank you. This thread had gone 7 pages now and I have only had to delete a few flamebait posts. Great discussion and debate and it has not turned sour yet. From a mods perspective its nice to see that FI can still be a place for good debate. Keep it up.

This thread is retarded (sorry jp4). You can compare pay rates at swa and jb all you want and swa wins everytime. 7 pages of what I would consider ridiculous bantering between two formerly (?) cordial airlines and all to what end? This could have been over in one post:

pay? swa.
401k? swa.
qol? depends on what you want.
upgrade? jb.
better looking flight attendant uniforms? jb (sorry to the camp counselors at swa)
future? swa has a huge edge here.

The point? I would hope that all our jb bubbas on this board realize that while in reality we may start competing with swa in a few select destinations, that doesn't mean we cannot continue to excercise some camaraderie here and there. We are after all, not that far from the same LCC tree.

I also agree with Sailpilot -- we should be working to achieve the same level of compensation as our swa brothers (can you say 6% match too?) instead of trying to justify our current pay rates.

I personally think swa should be our role model, both in terms of longevity and success.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Chance to live in base. Stock maybe? Seniority for life (ha -- if they make it). New airbii (ha, again, those 6 year models are so ... "nineties"). Overheard the dude telling another pilot he didn't actually want to leave, but the chance to be based in his home was worth the pay cut.

Curious though, why are you a rsv ca in lgb if you don't live there? Even the janitors at the Orlando center know a ca in lgb is gonna be on reserve forever. That seems like a rookie mistake or maybe you have some type of strategy? Flying with a former lgb fo, now jfk ca. Was on rsv in jfk for 10 months. What's the deal?

From where I live to NYC is a 9 hour commute, one way, with offline legs, and that's if everything goes perfectly. And that's Eastbound! It has taken me multiple DAYS to get back home! From home to LGB (LAX, actually) is a 2 hour flt and there are 4 non-stops a day. Parking at LAX is $15 bucks a month. I was based at JFK as an f/o prior to the base opening and for about 8 months as a Capt.
And just to maintain my rep as a whiner and negativist, I must add that I also just hate freakin' NYC!
It would be nice to move, but we are anchored here by aged and unwell in-laws that require our constant assistance.

 

[Bavarian Chef]

From where I live to NYC is a 9 hour commute, one way, with offline legs, and that's if everything goes perfectly. And that's Eastbound! It has taken me multiple DAYS to get back home! From home to LGB (LAX, actually) is a 2 hour flt and there are 4 non-stops a day. Parking at LAX is $15 bucks a month. I was based at JFK as an f/o prior to the base opening and for about 8 months as a Capt.
And just to maintain my rep as a whiner and negativist, I must add that I also just hate freakin' NYC!
It would be nice to move, but we are anchored here by aged and unwell in-laws that require our constant assistance.

I commute too because I choose to live in "paradise", but my commute ain't as bad as yours. Sorry about the inlaws.

I feel you pain about nyc, I think my avatar speaks for itself. But jfk has the best trips, and the best chance to make more money in open time. That being said, if we were PAID MORE ... I wouldn't work as much. Oh the humanity.

Good luck dog.

 

[Airtran717]

WRONG - its something like 120 per airplane for Air Tran.

SWA/FO - you couldnt be more wrong! We were just talking about this in my recurrent. Im trying to find the numbers to back up the data but Airtran only works about 10-15 more employees per airplane than SWA. When I find the link Ill post it. Sorry, dont mean to hijack the thread, just trying to correct false information. Please continue.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

As for selling A320s, it's a great idea to sell what is worth more on the used market today to generate cash and limit liabilities. JB is still buying new airplanes (although fewer) and growing at a 20% growth rate. Will be at a SWA city near you soon with a better product.

I agree with you, to a point.

JetBlue is out of the startup phase. They have utilized the startup cash and credit lines they started with, to great effect, and have transitioned into sustaining the business. But there is still a startup type growth plan to complete. Kinda halfway startup/maturing airline.

I feel there is a transition between now and approx. 2009 when the JFK terminal opens, but the current trend at JetBlue has underlying causes that may have more staying power than we think. The revenue environment for startup 2000-2005 was much better than it is right now for JetBlue, considering their costs vs. revenue.

In the long term it is not cheaper to give back almost new planes as you accumulate identical new ones. The market for used 320's is temporarily very lucrative but that tidbit hides the real reasons for the giveaway.

1) Failure to maintain revenue targets
2) Dealing with the expense of maintaining a 6 yr old 320 (with Direc TV)
3) Saving cash for 190 expansion and JFK project payments

No matter how this is spun, it is backtracking. The hope is that revenue will return to better levels. I think it will, but JetBlue is not there yet.


If the same thing was affecting SWA right now, we would be parking -300s.
Who knows, it could be in our future too.

Keep and eye on revenue, costs and debt.


Does anyone remember when NWA was LBO'd in 1989. Perhaps the last big one. The investors took their owned airplanes and "unlocked" the value in them by leasing/mortgaging them to pay their investors for the LBO. Some have said that was the beginning of their decline. Food for thought.

 

[Sailpilot]

3 year outlook?

I will just point out that most are comparing 3 years at these companies. We are even putting our CA pay against swa's FO pay.

1. The first 3 years should be least of the worries. Hopefully we all have decades to worry about not 3 years.

2. The comparing of our CA pay to SWA's FO pay is tragic in the best of light.

I love the taste of Blue-aid, I drink it and ask for more. I love going to work and flying for Jetblue. However, I think about this place as a SWA wantabe. That is not a bad thing, it's a great company to try and copy (employee and management relations). I don't think that we'll be on par with SWA in the next 3 years, but I'm in this for the long-run and believe that we can continue to make advances over time to achieve a more respectable compersation package. I once again point to the SWA pilot group that over the years has added to the compensation responsibly and allowed the company to foster a pro-employee relationship.

Good luck to the SWA pilots on your future. All this "I hope you are going out of business!" bullsh!& is just bad Karma.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

This turned out to be a much better thread than I thought was possible, bravo!


Lots of ideas here.

Do you go with the time to upgrade? Pay? Fleet plan growth? Balance sheet strength? Prospects next year or in 10 years? Current scheduling flexibility? Domicile location?

 

[psysicx]

How long is a newhire sitting reserve at JB?

 

[JBPA]

I'll try not to offend anyone this time.

Personally, from my experiences and those of my buds at SWA, I think that for the time you're at work for either company the experience is probably pretty similar (except shirt colors). The cultures are very similar, likely fly one type, fun overnights, productive, etc.

For me, it'd boil down to commute and compensation. Since I currently commute and would have to at SWA as well, the weight of the compensation package would, for me, be the single biggest variable in the decision equation (SWA wins).

Factoids:

- Fastest left seat: probably JB E-190 CA year 2(?) which is still less than SWA year 2 FO paywise. Significantly longer for A-320 and then long reserve sentence. Much higher earning potential and purchasing power for the SWA newbie (assuming both start TODAY).
- Reserve system: JB system sucks (in my exp/opinion). Sounds like SWA wins, especially with the year-2 pay gig.
- Airbus: Nice machine. Comfy, quiet, automated (E-190??).
- 737: Cramped, loud. Less automation (thanks Herb!)
- FA's: A wash, but I agree with Bavarian about SWA's uniforms.
- SWA: 1/2/3 rule every hotel. Looks like I picked the wrong trip to quit drinking. JB has some 1/2/3 but number is dwindling (huge impact on my drinking problem).
- Benefits: JB-below average (LTD is a joke). SWA - winner.
- Skeds: Lots of variety at both places. I'd assume more up/downs at SWA. Both productive.
- JB: tech savvy, innovative company. Streamlined processes (LIDO/OPS/JBDOCS).
- SWA: Union protection/real, tangible contract. There I said it. Any SWA dudes not happy with SWAPA or what you get for your dues (1.5%??)?

As I've told my buds waiting to hear from both places, either one would be a good (okay, so I don't get bashed I'd say real good) place to work. However, given the choice and all things considered, I would choose SWA every time (today - I didn't have the option 4+ yrs ago). Since we've been hiring some great folks, I'm glad not a lot of them are in this fortunate position b/c I think we'd be losing out on some great people.

FWIW, a 9-month FO left for SWA last week.

Edit...Oh yeah: Both great companies. JB still in infancy, growing pains. Despite overt financial references above, money isn't everything to me. Taking care of my family long-term is.

 

[clickclickboom]

When you ignore the slander of jp4 and select others this really turns out to be quite informative..

I think JD power rating jb and sw as #1 and #2 speaks volume about these 2 dynamic companies..

To all the SW guys Thanks! It is your hard work and 3 decades of maturity that give JB something to model after.

JB aims to be everythiung sw is and more and I think that is an excellent goal.

As for SW and JB tangling in some markets:

I think this is not an issue. Unlike the legacy carriers both SW and JB can just do what they do best and everything will fall into place.No nasty competitive tactics necessary. Take Song for example they lost millions and millions padding schedules 15 mins before or after jb departures, flooded routes with excess capacity and did it on purpose knowing they were going to lose millions.. Pretty stupid if you ask me..

Now the former song boss is running Virgin America. If that comes together it will be interesting to see where they will fit in..

 

[Alcatraz]

Great thread... here's my 2 cents...

I've been at SWA for a little over 6 months, and have several friends at jetBlue to compare notes with. I've also worked at several other airlines ranging from "regional," "national," and "major."

Salary, financial strength, upgrade time, domiciles, equipment types, and "work environment" are very important factors in determining who to work for, but plenty has been said already on all.

One factor that I think has not been given enough attention in this thread is schedule. Unless you intentionally manipulate your schedule for any of various reasons, which is easy to do, most SWA lines (even reserve) are AM or PM schedules that don't switch back and forth mid-trip or mid-month from AM to PM. jetBlue schedules, on the other hand, seem to do this very frequently, especially when you consider the amount of redeyes they do (compared to SWA's nearly zero redeyes).

Think about it... after a redeye your choices are: get minimum rest ("day sleep") and then have a short duty period in the evening, or have a 24 hour layover to work the originator a day later (and lose productivity on the layover). Either way, it results in a shift in your body clock that becomes a cumulative fatigue factor. At other airlines I've done this once or twice a month, and even that often was too much for me to do for the rest of my life (but everyone's got different priorities). It does affect commutability, though, but I live in base...

Also, SWA lines (including reserve) are generally built to work the same days of the week all month long... something I've never experienced at any airline without significant seniority. This month, as a very junior FO, I bid a PM reserve line (coulda held an AM hard line) that works Sunday through Tuesday and sometimes Wednesday. ALL MONTH! Now I can start to have a "normal" life and schedule things on certain days of the week (sailing lessons, guitar lessons, or perhaps that auto repair college course?).

And, yes, 15 reserve days max a month is a nice bonus.

Fly safe ya'll,


-Alkie