JB v/s SWA

[clickclickboom]

There would even be a doubt over the choice?

Who is selling airplanes now due to heavy check costs?
Who is already deviating from a their original business plan?
Who is paying an insulting rate of pay on an aircraft (ties in with above)?
Who is through peer pressure intimdating you to clean airplanes?
Who is making you sign a contract to work there?
Who is forecasting the potential to sell more aircraft due to financial difficulties?

Yes JB is the first company in the history of aviation to have 2 loss quarters and respond to that by developing numerous focus groups of employees to come up with cost cutting measures that currently amount to a savings of over $100,000,000 per year..

Do other airlines do that? No they dump pensions, go bankrupt and steal from the pilots..

Do you think your cushy corporate job would do the same? I doubt the board of directors will come to you to find ways to cut costs.. They would just dump the plane kick you out on the street and buy a fractional..

Peer Pressure to Clean the Plane? In our world it's called teamwork and I am happy to participate everyday.

 

[Mach 80]

I'm young...I'd go to JetBlue. Seems like a hipper bunch, plus I'd rather not be flying around regional style for the rest of my life in a 737. Oh yeah, and I'd rather avoid the cattle car passengers that fill those 737s, I avoid them normally by never setting foot in a WallMart.

Of course I do think that JetBlue will pull through this economic period we are passing through. Too good a product!

Have you looked at SWA's routes lately? Plenty of coast to coast flights or two legs across the country. Lots of near 3 hour flights up and down the East Coast. The beauty of it is you can do short haul, long haul, or a combination.

The 737-700 is not the 737 of the past. Similar to the 757.

JB a hipper bunch? They sure are if you like the greasy haired Puerto Rican-New York male flight attendant thing.

 

[SWA/FO]

I'm young...I'd go to JetBlue. Seems like a hipper bunch, plus I'd rather not be flying around regional style for the rest of my life in a 737. Oh yeah, and I'd rather avoid the cattle car passengers that fill those 737s, I avoid them normally by never setting foot in a WallMart.

I think its spelled Walmart.. Me too, I'd never set foot in a Walmart either.. I love to pay more for the same thing. I like driving all over town searching for the higher quality store to buy my laundry soap from.

You're years away from even flying for a regional outfit and decades from flying a B737 or A320. Last time I checked, the C-152 does not qualify as turbine PIC. You have no idea what your talking about. Now, I use to say dumb stuff too, when I was sitting on that CFI couch waiting for the next student to walk in the door. Thankfully, the internet was not around then. You need to go back to the CFI board and log some time there. You are not a player here.

One word: PROFITS. We make money with 70% Load factors. Just think what our profits would be if we had JB load factor?

Barry Sanders would have run for 2000 yards a season every season if he had the same line to run behind as Emmitt Smith.

 

[ivauir]

While SW does have low costs after high salaries it is certainly not the lowest. That distinction goes to JB.

Huh? What costs (other than labor) does JB have that are lower than SWA's? I'm not flaming, I just want to know. I'll tell you what I DO know and that is that SWA makes a profit with the lowest load factor in the industry and with low fares. I'm no airline analyst, but I am pretty sure that is a sign that our costs must be the lowest...

I'm sure the JB product is great, and I'm sure it is a great place to work.

 

[JP4user]

Yes JB is the first company in the history of aviation to have 2 loss quarters and respond to that by developing numerous focus groups of employees to come up with cost cutting measures that currently amount to a savings of over $100,000,000 per year..

They are also the first company in the history of aviation to sell aircraft with a two quarter loss becasue if maintenance costs.

Focus groups? LOL....if your brilliant management can't come up with ideas themselves they need to move on. Besides, the kumbaya about focus groups are just bones being thrown to keep the employees distracted until another serving of kool aid comes out.

Do other airlines do that? No they dump pensions, go bankrupt and steal from the pilots..

Those other airlines will eventually get back on track. Even so, the contracts left in place in the wake of destruction still aren't bad compared to yours. What does that 190 pay again? What A funds do you have? If you run afoul of the kool aid police who protects you if your contract isn't renewed?

Do you think your cushy corporate job would do the same?

No.

I doubt the board of directors will come to you to find ways to cut costs.. They would just dump the plane kick you out on the street and buy a fractional..

LMAO....of you only knew. Fractional? LMAO!!!

Peer Pressure to Clean the Plane? In our world it's called teamwork and I am happy to participate everyday.

Teamwork is just another cute term for getting someone to do something for free. But when you are at the point of dumping aircraft due to heavy check costs, every pillow you place will be one less thing that minimum wage foreign national has to do.

 

[Hair-on-Fire]

I Now, I use to say dumb stuff too, when I was sitting on that CFI couch waiting for the next student to walk in the door.

used to?

 

[Sailpilot]

Instead of everybody talking about how SWA makes to much and how they are going to take a pay-cut, we should be striving to accomplish their pay scale. SWA keep up the good work bye establishing a level for us and Legacy guys to either get back too or climb too. SWA/FO I believe said it correctly, they are the most productive pilots in the industry and earn that payscale.

Somebody stated flying the 737 for the next 20-30 years? The 797 should be a huge advance. I love flying the the 320, but I could be convinced to suffer the 737 (sarcasm) or C-152 for that matter for the exta money.

 

[Cloudroller]

The Airbus cockpit is a heck of a lot nicer than the 737. Think about where you'll be sitting in the next 20-25 years.

You can use the extra money that you will make at SWA to pad your a$$ on the 737 seats.

 

[HalinTexas]

I'll join the arguement with a few modifications.

ATA flies The B737-800's from LAX, ONT, and OAK to HNL, OGG, and ITO, and B757's from PHX and LAS to OGG and HNL. We are full! Matter of fact almost too full. The B757's are, by far, the superior airplane. It is nothing like a B737. Most of these flights, while codeshare, do not connect with a soutwest flight back on the mainland. If SWA is smart they won't even bother trying long, overwater flying with a B737. N. Amer. international? Sure.

B6. That place makes me nervous. Probably showed in the interview, too. No sweat off my back. It probably didn't help that I'm from Texas, live in Dallas, and I'm typed and current on the B73. Also didn't make me too comfortable in their managment meet-n-greet room. Their answers to questions didn't make me feel very confident. I've heard similarly weak answers before. I've flown B6 once. To the interview. I didn't get that warm and fuzzy feeling from them, either. I also sat in the only seat where the TV didn't work. I slid over to one that worked. (Could this be a developing problem here?) Fleet commonality or not, (I mean, how different can one Airbus be from the next, right?) you don't grow as rapidly as JetBlue and give back airplanes that quickly. If B6's intent is to be a holding company, and take the olderplanes offline to lease to someone else who will take care of the management and maintenance, then fine, but that's putting more irons into an already crowded fire. Someone's gonna get burnt.

JetBlue is a fine company. I'm glad there are folks happy to be there, and busting their a$$es to make it work, but I don't think it's the airline to emulate. They got a ton free national press, right from the get-go. Probably helps having George Soros front you the money. They've ordered too many airplanes too quickly, and they have to put them somewhere. It seems that they've hinged their future on the E-190. You're gonna start limiting yourself by doing that. Yes, it flies a pretty long way, but what kind of payload can it handle with any kind of range? This includes freight. The B737-800's can't fly a full load of people to HI and take any kind of freight load. The B757's can! Even out of PHX and LAS.

I'd rather work for a mature airline with leadership and plans, the a maturing airline with uncertain unproven leadership and plans. If Neelemen sticks it out for the long-term, and they still make money with pilots topped on their seniority list, I reserve the right to change my mind. That will be, what, six years form now?

 

[Captain Overs]

Well, that's the problem with written media isn't it. There IS NO sound. The only sounds you're hearing are whatever is bouncing off the bony insides of your own skull when you read these posts. If you are "hearing" the sounds of arrogance, then it could possibly be something preconceived that you are bringing to the table.

More to the point, what would it matter if the author of a post "sounds" arrogant, intentionally or not? Does a person's delivery change the validity of his argument? I think a person's statements should be judged on the merit of their logic and evidence, not on the delivery.

Just a thought...I like to keep things intellectually honest. When somebody gets browbeaten because of a perceived problem with the delivery, then it causes everyone to lose sight of the point.

Rant off--sorry for the thread creep. :beer:

Relax Dr. It was a valid question. Why does it matter if he's a civilian? Is it because he's not a military pilot that he's not as qualified? If his time is correct then he has plenty of time to be competitive in this market.

Now back to your thesis.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Well written yes, accurate no. This is why I say that:

Jetblue does not pay "junk" interest rates. While SW does have low costs after high salaries it is certainly not the lowest. That distinction goes to JB.

Well written prose may gather the weak of mind but fact always wins.

Juice

Sigh. I knew this thread would degenerate into something ugly.

My thoughts....

1) SWA is not as invulnerable as some claim. Airtran has lower costs. JetBlue is close, read #4. (But SWA has a great balance sheet and its easier to hold onto that, as a big company, then to turn a hurting balance sheet around. Costs are getting closer at other big carriers but still trail badly)

2) JetBlue is selling airplanes to avoid a TEMPORARY cash crunch next year, maybe the year after too. IMHO, Smart planning on their part. (But the debt and obligations causing this rethinking of the plan brings the reality of supporting a sustainable business home.) I predict a decent '07 or '08 for JB and a very good 2009 for them. But the hiring picture will not look like it has.

3) Hedges have been helping with huge CAPEX at SWA. CAPEX funded out of current year revenue without the use of debt. Without hedges there would still be a profit. Remember, hedges also cost $ to purchase and get taxed when sold.

4) JB has the lowest costs? Don't think so. If you stage length adjust them Airtran is better than JB. And SWA is better than JB. This is not my opinion, it is fact.


So do you think its more likely SWA will get to their 600 plane fleet or JB will continue with A320 deliveries as planned after this year (without giving anymore back)???? I think that is the question. Can't tell.

JetBlue may not do really well until the JFK terminal is at or near completion. But JetBlue may also take advantage of further cuts at NWA and DAL next year.

SWA might decide to sell some old -300's. But SWA may also get a new airplane sharing a common type with the 737 and go international.

 

[FL250]

Congrats Burg.....you are in a nice position! Wow, you can sure tell who works for who in here.

I think you have already made your mind up Don't forget to send JB a really nice "thanks-but-no-thanks" letter! Welcome to SWA.....you are gonna LUV it!

 

[GogglesPisano]

Cleaning up and flying right
JetBlue Airways CEO David Neeleman speaks on airfare concerns, changes for a profitable year and cleaning planes.
By Julie Schlosser, FORTUNE associate editor
July 3 2006: 11:37 AM EDT


(FORTUNE Magazine) -- When JetBlue (Charts) took off in 2000, it quickly became the discount airline of choice. The upstart carrier drew customers with its free live TV, cheap fares, and a CEO who cleaned company planes. But in 2005 the carrier stumbled, posting its first loss since going public. With oil prices sky high, the carrier's model is now being tested. Neeleman, 46, chatted with FORTUNE's Julie Schlosser about fuel, in-flight e-mail, and his plans to get JetBlue back into the black.

With high fares and lower capacity, summer travel looks a bit bumpy. Are you concerned?


I am worried about fuel prices. We were predominantly a long-haul carrier, and the run-up in fuel prices really hurt us. You can't keep charging really cheap fares. I like doing that; it is more fun. But we went from $20 a person in fuel costs to fly across the country to $65 to $70 per person.

For years you didn't hedge fuel as much as Southwest (Charts) did. What are you doing today?

We have about 40% of our fuel hedged through the end of the year, but it is mainly catastrophic coverage. It's difficult when fuel is at its all-time high to say, "Okay, now we want to buy fuel for the future." It would have been ideal to hedge at $40 a barrel.

So why didn't you hedge more earlier?

I think the frog just got cooked one degree at a time. I had people saying, "There's no way it is going to go above $50, so don't hedge here."

Are you thinking about alternative fuel?

We are. We can't burn ethanol on airplanes, but you can make jet fuel from coal. We've conceived some legislation, which has to do with just that. You can make this stuff for $35 to $38 a barrel. The downside is that it takes a huge amount of capital to build $4 billion plants. Nobody wants to build it and have the price of oil go below $35. So the legislation basically says you get compensation for your capital if the price goes from $38 down to $18. It's a no-risk thing for the government. With 70 plants, we could generate about 45% of our imported oil equivalent.

You recently won the government's auction for wireless spectrum. How will you use it?

The FCC hasn't officially awarded the license yet. There's commotion about phones, but we have no intention of putting them on planes. We thought what would be useful and respectful of other customers would be if we could figure out how to make a wireless device work, so you can use your BlackBerry at 40,000 feet.

Despite last year's loss, you expect to be profitable next quarter. What are you doing besides cutting some long-haul flights?

That's part of it. We are really focusing on the mix of fares - trying not to offer so many really cheap fares and not so many expensive fares.

Are you still cleaning planes?

I was on one yesterday. I try to do it once a week, but it is tougher with this whole return-to-profitability thing.

From the July 10, 2006 issue

 

[clickclickboom]

They are also the first company in the history of aviation to sell aircraft with a two quarter loss becasue if maintenance costs.

Focus groups? LOL....if your brilliant management can't come up with ideas themselves they need to move on. Besides, the kumbaya about focus groups are just bones being thrown to keep the employees distracted until another serving of kool aid comes out.



Those other airlines will eventually get back on track. Even so, the contracts left in place in the wake of destruction still aren't bad compared to yours. What does that 190 pay again? What A funds do you have? If you run afoul of the kool aid police who protects you if your contract isn't renewed?



No.



LMAO....of you only knew. Fractional? LMAO!!!



Teamwork is just another cute term for getting someone to do something for free. But when you are at the point of dumping aircraft due to heavy check costs, every pillow you place will be one less thing that minimum wage foreign national has to do.

Here we go JP4 is back now we can all just sit back and listen to jp4 respond to himself from here on out..

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Congrats and if you don't mind telling, how did a civilian pilot get concurrent offers from two of the three hiring major airlines?

Just a wild guess...but I'm gonna say that the guy interviewed very well

Tejas

 

[clickclickboom]

Comparison

I have many friends at SW and many at JB. I am a JB guy..

Both companies are awesome companies to work for. Naturally SW has been around longer so a better conservative decision would be to go to SW.

Jb has been around for 6 years and are a new company there are unknown variables at both.

It comes down to bases and QOL. Long term I don't think there is a right or wrong answer simple as that.

JB lower initial salary but faster upgrade
SW higher salary yr 2 longer upgrade

I wouldnt use upgrade for a basis of making a decision.

 

[clickclickboom]

I'll join the arguement with a few modifications.

ATA flies The B737-800's from LAX, ONT, and OAK to HNL, OGG, and ITO, and B757's from PHX and LAS to OGG and HNL. We are full! Matter of fact almost too full. The B757's are, by far, the superior airplane. It is nothing like a B737. Most of these flights, while codeshare, do not connect with a soutwest flight back on the mainland. If SWA is smart they won't even bother trying long, overwater flying with a B737. N. Amer. international? Sure.

B6. That place makes me nervous. Probably showed in the interview, too. No sweat off my back. It probably didn't help that I'm from Texas, live in Dallas, and I'm typed and current on the B73. Also didn't make me too comfortable in their managment meet-n-greet room. Their answers to questions didn't make me feel very confident. I've heard similarly weak answers before. I've flown B6 once. To the interview. I didn't get that warm and fuzzy feeling from them, either. I also sat in the only seat where the TV didn't work. I slid over to one that worked. (Could this be a developing problem here?) Fleet commonality or not, (I mean, how different can one Airbus be from the next, right?) you don't grow as rapidly as JetBlue and give back airplanes that quickly. If B6's intent is to be a holding company, and take the olderplanes offline to lease to someone else who will take care of the management and maintenance, then fine, but that's putting more irons into an already crowded fire. Someone's gonna get burnt.

JetBlue is a fine company. I'm glad there are folks happy to be there, and busting their a$$es to make it work, but I don't think it's the airline to emulate. They got a ton free national press, right from the get-go. Probably helps having George Soros front you the money. They've ordered too many airplanes too quickly, and they have to put them somewhere. It seems that they've hinged their future on the E-190. You're gonna start limiting yourself by doing that. Yes, it flies a pretty long way, but what kind of payload can it handle with any kind of range? This includes freight. The B737-800's can't fly a full load of people to HI and take any kind of freight load. The B757's can! Even out of PHX and LAS.

I'd rather work for a mature airline with leadership and plans, the a maturing airline with uncertain unproven leadership and plans. If Neelemen sticks it out for the long-term, and they still make money with pilots topped on their seniority list, I reserve the right to change my mind. That will be, what, six years form now?

Unlike jp4user who was dropped on his head a few to many times. I feel that your personal opinion is well spoken and constructive

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I have many friends at SW and many at JB. I am a JB guy..

Both companies are awesome companies to work for. Naturally SW has been around longer so a better conservative decision would be to go to SW.

Jb has been around for 6 years and are a new company there are unknown variables at both.

It comes down to bases and QOL. Long term I don't think there is a right or wrong answer simple as that.

JB lower initial salary but faster upgrade
SW higher salary yr 2 longer upgrade

I wouldnt use upgrade for a basis of making a decision.

I don't have the numbers in front of me but I believe the faster upgrade at JB is a wash, financially. A SWA f/o makes essentially the same as a JB reserve Captain and has a better QOL, as well.

 

[Widow's Son]

>>Well written yes, accurate no. This is why I say that:

Jetblue does not pay "junk" interest rates. While SW does have low costs after high salaries it is certainly not the lowest. That distinction goes to JB.

Well written prose may gather the weak of mind but fact always wins<<

Blue Juice,

Here are your facts as of the latest Standard and Poors report dated June 22.

Southwest Airlines Corporate credit rating is "A Stable." In industry slang that is referred to as "brick"

JetBlue's Corporate Credit rating was recently lowered from B+ to B- negative watch. The "watch' means that it is currently being considered for another downgrade. The polite term for such a rating is "speculative grade" but most insiders use "junk".

The corporate credit rating affects much more than just interest on loans. It is a consideration in hull and liability costs, workman's compensation premiums, airport performance bond ratings, vendor quotes and requirements, fuel hedging contracts, et-cetera et-cetera

As far as costs go, when you adjust the calculated CASM by stage length, SWA's CASM is lower than JetBlues by a significant amount. Furthermore, long haul is inherently less costly on a CASM basis than is short haul. JetBlue is decreasing stage length thereby increasing costs while just the opposite is happening at Southwest. The reason that SWA can have high wage costs yet lower overall costs is because of the productivity of their system which is driven by one aircraft type. By adding the EMB, JetBlue is decreasing their productivity and increasing manning, maintenance, and spares costs along with many others. While the EMB has a lower plane mile cost, it has a much higher seat mile cost than either the A320 or the 737.

If anything can be learned from the current industry it is that worker productivity is much more important than worker wages in determining overall costs. Low wages don't make for a low cost airline. JetBlue is well on their way to becoming a high cost airline and low wages aren't going to save them.

 

[elag777]

I don't have the numbers in front of me but I believe the faster upgrade at JB is a wash, financially. A SWA f/o makes essentially the same as a JB reserve Captain and has a better QOL, as well.

Not quite a wash. Assuming that a three year tenure at both companies are still on rsv, rsv Capt at JetBlue and still on rsv as an FO at WN (don't know if there is a three year rsv period at WN) B6 res capt would be up over $1500.00 over the 3yr res WN guy. A WN line holder would have to fly approx 95hrs of credit to match the rsv pay at B6, however I am sure you are correct about the QOL being better though.


This info is not gospel and should not be taken as such