JB v/s SWA

[burg]

I got offers from swa and JB. I've made up my mind with swa but any input to the other would be welcome.

Signed
The luckiest guy on my street,!!!!!!!!!!.

 

[SWA/FO]

Come on you have to ask?

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

This is an insensitive question to ask considering the current environment.

I hope SW folks refrain from responding.

 

[Truckdriver]

It depends on where you want to live. If JBLU has a domicile in a place you love I would go there and not deal with the commute. If SWA has a domicile in a place you want to live I would go there. I think you could be happy making a career at either company. The pay may be better at SWA, but pay is not everything. JBLU seems to be working on stuff to make life easier for pilots such as reserve scheduling issues and some sort of "virtual basing" system. I personally would rather work for Dave and Dave at JBLU than the guys at SWA. If JBLU can pull off the planned growth for the next 6 years, SWA is going to have a serious thorn in their side. SWA will be forced to change it's model or they will lose lots of people to JBLU. I personally would go to JBLU, but you sure wouldn't be making a mistake going to SWA. You must be the man to get offers from both and actually have that decision to make.

 

[J32driver]

Are you a betting man? Wanna bet on a faster upgrade and future pay and work rules? If you do, then go to JetBlue.

If you aren't, do the safe comfortable thing and go to the company with an established track record of making a company profit while taking extremely good care of its employees and go to SWA.

 

[Longhorn]

Nice...:erm: I am sure those comments will help. Here we go with another JB thread

 

[AlbieF15]

FBJ,

Why do you consider the question insensitive? Not a flame--just wondering your thought process. The pro/cons on various carriers (when they don't degenerate into name calling or other stupidity) can be pretty insightful as guys and gals talk about what they LIKE and DON'T LIKE about their carriers. Scattered among the piles of horsecrap are some occassional nuggets (hehehe) of good info.

 

[wndshr]

I got offers from swa and JB. I've made up my mind with swa but any input to the other would be welcome.

Signed
The luckiest guy on my street,!!!!!!!!!!.

Go to SWA and then bail as soon as you can to a cargo carrier like FedEx or UPS. They will not have to deal with economic pressures, furloughs, cutbacks or any other things that JBLU is dealing with, and SWA will have to deal with in the future. Pax carriers, the once favored route is way behind cargo with respect to job security and future wages.

 

[GogglesPisano]

The Airbus cockpit is a heck of a lot nicer than the 737. Think about where you'll be sitting in the next 20-25 years.

 

[johnsonrod]

I will take your slot at SWA if you don't want it... Go to SWA and don't look back.

 

[SWA/FO]

SWA is going to have a serious thorn in their side. SWA will be forced to change it's model or they will lose lots of people to JBLU

Hopefully, they are all senior to me.

 

[:-)]

I got offers from swa and JB. I've made up my mind with swa but any input to the other would be welcome.

Signed
The luckiest guy on my street,!!!!!!!!!!.

SWA is on top, with some remaining up potential and a lot of down potential. I'll explain later.

JetBlue is up and coming and I'd speculate that the chances of up to down are 50/50.

Obviously, SWA is more stable and certainly more of a known. Even though their growth continues, they are basically a mature organization. My earlier mention of down potential comes from my belief that SWA is not imune to market pressure in the pilot wage department. It doesn't matter how people friendly SWA is, they can't continue paying half again to twice the going rate for a narrowbody pilot. The pay cut requests, or demands will take their toll on the work environment at SWA. On the upside, you'll not have to learn but one airplane for the next twenty or so years, and SWA has the best management in the business, so they WILL be here.

JetBlue is growing and therefore unstable. They could get raises, or paycuts. The current base structure will almost inevitabally evolve. You could get hired at B6 and find yourself junior assigned to a new crewbase as the company grows, etc.

I'd take B6 if I lived in Florida, New York or Caleeeefornia, and was a young man who didn't mind rolling the dice. The upside could/can be enormous. Otherwise, SWA offers a better assortment of base choices and less of a question of the future.

Congrats and if you don't mind telling, how did a civilian pilot get concurrent offers from two of the three hiring major airlines?

 

[:-)]

If JBLU can pull off the planned growth for the next 6 years, SWA is going to have a serious thorn in their side. SWA will be forced to change it's model or they will lose lots of people to JBLU. .

You must have had a few too many my friend. That's a BIG if. B6 is already changing their growth plans by selling off five Scarebus'. I also doubt that SWA will lose many employees to B6. They may lose a few potential newhires, but I'll kiss your virtual behind if you can prove that a current/in good standing SWA pilot switches from purple to blue koolaide.:laugh:

 

[SWA/FO]

It doesn't matter how people friendly SWA is, they can't continue paying half again to twice the going rate for a narrowbody pilot. The pay cut requests, or demands will take their toll on the work environment at SWA. On the upside, you'll not have to learn but one airplane for the next twenty or so years, and SWA has the best management in the business, so they WILL be here.

What? Paycut requests? 1 airplane?

Do you think the Southwest of today will be the same company in say 10 years? We gots the 797 coming in to replace the 737.

 

[Falconjet]

My only question is if you have already decided, why do you ask for opinions?

Sounds like ready fire aim to me.

Oh yeah, I would go with SW.

Congrats on the choices and good luck with SW.

FJ

 

[:-)]

What? Paycut requests? 1 airplane?

Do you think the Southwest of today will be the same company in say 10 years? We gots the 797 coming in to replace the 737.

Those paycut requests will come my friend. There are too many of us driving around the same number of seats as yourself and doing it for half your wages to allow your employer to continue with business as usual. I'm not happy about working for half of your wages, but the numbers don't lie. Good Luck to ya, and I hope that you can continue to maintain those wages.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I got offers from swa and JB. I've made up my mind with swa but any input to the other would be welcome.

Signed
The luckiest guy on my street,!!!!!!!!!!.

Flip a coin, my friend.
Look back 5, 10 years. Who could have predicted any of it?
You won't know the answer until you're 60 (65, 70?).
Go for the easiest commute!
Good luck!

 

[Truckdriver]

You must have had a few too many my friend. That's a BIG if. B6 is already changing their growth plans by selling off five Scarebus'. I also doubt that SWA will lose many employees to B6. They may lose a few potential newhires, but I'll kiss your virtual behind if you can prove that a current/in good standing SWA pilot switches from purple to blue koolaide.:laugh:

Sorry, I didn't mean they would lose employees to JBLU. I'm talking about paying customers. Employees will stay put, but passengers will go with JBLU in droves when the JBLU route structure matures. SWA is known for CHEAP and that is it. JBLU can offer cheap with class. With a mature route structure, SWA won't be able to touch JBLU or VA if they ever get up and running. SWA does have some bumps in the future.

 

[canyonblue]

Those paycut requests will come my friend. There are too many of us driving around the same number of seats as yourself and doing it for half your wages to allow your employer to continue with business as usual.

Nice attitude.uke: Thanks for your support. Other pilots groups might be driving around the same number of seats, but it takes a lot more of them to be as productive as a Southwest pilot. As far as which airline to pick, go with the one that you really want to work for the most. There is only one guarantee in the airline world, and that is there is no guarantee.

 

[Lake Alice]

With respect to the first post, flame bait at best. Take your BS elsewhere.

As for last post SWA would be in the same boat as any other airline short of their fuel hedges. The fact is they out smarted the economy and the industry.

The question is whether they can continue to do so after their hedges run out.

As for B6, we are making our mistakes early enough and hopefully learning from them so we can be competitive for the future. Time will tell.

 

[:-)]

Nice attitude.uke: Thanks for your support. Other pilots groups might be driving around the same number of seats, but it takes a lot more of them to be as productive as a Southwest pilot. As far as which airline to pick, go with the one that you really want to work for the most. There is only one guarantee in the airline world, and that is there is no guarantee.

You know neither my attitude nor my level of support for you and your SWA brothers. But economics is no respector of attitude, so I'll stick to my assertion that SWA will eventually have to deal with the realities of the pilot market. Unless your efficiency is double that of the rest of us, then you will be asked to get into line. I'm not wishing bad upon you, I'm actually worried for you..........
and for the rest of us.

BTW, since this is about SWA vs B6, I give you a much better chance of continued success than I do B6; even as I predict that you will take some kind of pay cut over the next few years. If you were a hub and spoke legacy, I'd predict some kind of efficiency increase, but I don't see much chance of you boys being any more efficient that the present, which leaves only a pay cut. You should be praying for a dramatic recovery in the legacy group that leads to pay raises for us. Then your wages will return to being a bargain for your employer.

Sincerely, good luck.

 

[Widow's Son]

Do the math. JetBlue has four times the debt on one tenth the revenues of SWA. SWA pays submarket interest, JBLU pays junk rates. Interest rates are going up and are going to be a much bigger liability on JetBlue than even fuel. Western Pacific proved that no airline has a long term future on just one power hub. SWA has a least a dozen and counting. Costs are king and JB has let them get out of control. SWA maintains the lowest milage adjusted costs even with the highest wages. Fuel hedges helped SWA but only because they had the money laying around to buy them. Without fuel hedges, SWA would have still not lost money as they would have had the fuel hedge money for something else.
In all honesty, I would go to SkyWest, or even Horizon before JetBlue. JetBlue has done some amazing things and they are a very attractive carrier in many ways, but Neeleman is a starter, not a finisher, and JetBlue is still far from out of the startup woods yet. Having to get rid of airplanes that are out of warranty because you can't afford the routine maintenance screams "Danger Will Robinson!" The decision to buy the Embraer's was fatally flawed and happend in part because Neeleman served a Church mission in Brazil and has a soft spot in his heart for the country and the language. They used that and his ego to win him over. Makes for sentimental copy but bad business decisions. I predict that JetBlue will suffer a palace coup in which Neeleman will be forced out. The new kids on the block will be greenshades from outside the industry who will try and turn the airline around on the backs of the already lean employees. JetBlue will either merge with someone, or be gone in fiveish years. SWA will be flying our great grandkids to Mars in the ugliest paintjobs in space.

 

[bvt1151]

Depends on if you still want to be working there in 5 years or not.

 

[GogglesPisano]

SWA will be flying our great grandkids to Mars in the ugliest paintjobs in space.

Wrong. They'll never do international. Plus the 737 doesn't have the range.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

The question is whether they can continue to do so after their hedges run out.

The hedges run out??? Being satisfied with the profits, I would then guess that the SWA management is doing nothing to improve upon their hedge positions?

Tejas

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

Once upon a time I was attending some arcane finance class in college, in an attempt to learn some of the in's-and-outs of the business side of this business, when the discussion turned to a certain Texas-based airline. At the time, even though they had started as basically a regional airline, they had grown to some longer routes, including several international destinations. They were probably the healthiest airline of the era, at least on paper. They were known for sound, if sometimes unconventional business practices, the flamboyance of one of their founding members, and their ability to make a profit, even when others were drowning in debt. They were also known for the distinctive, and by some accounts, downright ugly livery of their fleet. Among would-be pilots, they were known for being a "no-a$$hole" airline. You had to be recommended by somebody, ideally several "somebody's," to even get an interview there. They were "Good Old Boys," the darlings of Wall Street, as well as the darlings of the industry.

"That's where I want to work!" I thought to myself, as I started contemplating how I would cultivate the connections I'd need to get a recommendation there.

The year was 1976, the airline of course was Braniff, and less than 6 years later, they were bankrupt.

If you were to poll every pilot flying for a major airline right now, you would probably find that half of them would gladly trade their seniority at their present carrier for the same date-of-hire at one of the "Flavor of the Week" carriers that are so often mentioned on this board. That wasn't true five years ago, and it probably won't be true 5 years from now. The question before you is not "who's doing well today?," it's "who will be doing well 5-10-15 years from now" Offhand, I can't think of one single airline in recent times, that has been an "A-list" employment opportunity for more than about 5-8 years.

It's a cr@p shoot at best. Whichever one you go with, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[Russ]

"They'll never do international"

How far is Toronto, Calgary or Vancouver?
Same for Cancun, Cabo, etc.

If they decide not to go international, it won't be because of the aircraft, but rather the business isn't there.

Aloha flies the guppy a long way between the mainland and Hawaii. If your talking about Dallas to London, well then perhaps. Even then, they can have ATA do it for them.

 

[Stinkbug]

SWA will be flying our great grandkids to Mars in the ugliest paintjobs in space.

I happen to dig the blue-tops

 

[satpak77]

an older guy I know left the Air Force in 1980-ish and had offers from Eastern, Pan Am, and Southwest. He was told to go to Pan Am if he wanted security and international travel (this was the disco 70s/80s, lots of FA comments were given to him).

Eastern was the choice if he wanted to work for a "exciting new place", being the soon-to-be launch customer for the 757, and recently acquired some new L-1011's. Eastern was clearly going places.

For whatever reason, this guy went with Southwest, a lowly 737 operator.

the rest is history

the "strong guy" today could be tomorrows deceased-airline

 

[Dangerkitty]

"They'll never do international"

How far is Toronto, Calgary or Vancouver?
Same for Cancun, Cabo, etc.

If they decide not to go international, it won't be because of the aircraft, but rather the business isn't there.

Aloha flies the guppy a long way between the mainland and Hawaii. If your talking about Dallas to London, well then perhaps. Even then, they can have ATA do it for them.

Mexico and Canada is not considered international.