JB pilots file with NMB

[PCL_128]

I am keeping my 2.5% is a statement from old...how I am not a member of ALPA anymore.

ALPA dues are only 1.95%.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

To put a fine point on it, you said that JB management was "taking away the professional status" by
-cleaning cabins
-the fatigue experiment
-no code of ethics.

I showed you that they
-leave it open...and I like it open for interpretation. Your milage may vary.

That fact that it exist is the point.... we can go over the points or just search this forum....
At one point, I believe, it was written into the job description on the JB website...

This is a concern because JB management views pilots as just another employee group.. there is nothing unique about pilots. While this is correct when it comes to basic respect amongst all, when it comes to compensation for education, training and responsibility, it means something else...

-had a cooperative part in the fatigue experiment, a PERFECT example of how to work with a group instead of against it

To defend that exp. is embarrassing. That is not how to conduct a safety evaluation. What was the goal of the experiment? To see if management can change the flight and duty times? To whose favor? Obviously no one was looking out for safety or the pilots interest...

-I disagree...show me where any other company has "ethics" that are in place...

Company? The profession creates the ethics. I am not sure of any air line company that cares about the Profession of Air Line Pilots...

You make a post--now back it up. Don't just add explanatory text about how we need capital hill representation.

JetBlue MAY need a union. But not for the shallow reasons you so callously throw out.

Shallow reasons? Counter this:

1. Cleaning cabins. This is a major blow to the image of JB pilots and respect from their peers. You'll be hard pressed to find pilots from AMR, NWA, SWA, DAL and UAL who think pilots cleaning cabins is a good idea. Embarrassing.


2. Fatigue experiments conducted on unknown traveling public. Were FARs broken? Would the traveling public have agreed to to fly on those flights had they known? Embarrassing.

3. Code Of Ethics. The FAA has defined a profession as one with a code. It is quite simple, paramount and elementary. Don't fret.. if you read an airline pilots CoE it is quite a company and passenger committed document. Once read, professional pilots agree with it...

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Again, show me how the program was a management failure and I'll agree with Res' proposition.

What's the status of AMP? There's your answer.

AMP was like Age 65 and the FFDO program. JB voiced "our" opinions to the media on those as well, yet I cannot remember anyone asking me if I wanted to work until age 65 or if I was against the FFDO program. The media release on Age 65 read something like:

DB: "On behalf of all JetBlue pilots we are pleased that pilots can now work until Age 65."

Give me a break. Right now management speaks for us. Hopefully, not for long.

 

[PsubS]

AMP as cancelled by Bushy when he saw the downside...he slowed the entire process down when he came to the company; our Yoda and the director of flight standards were pushing to petition the FAA for a waiver/exemption before the study was even complete. Bushy stopped the whole process--that is management assessing the risk and taking appropriate action.

Again, the cabin cleaning thing is completely horse-beaten. It's your opinion. Ain't proof, sugar bear.

Hmmmm. A three man crew extending a duty day. Sounds rather like many a cargo operation out there, or even an augmented crew.

But you probably didn't know that they flew it augmented, did you?

Ahhhh...and what exactly does the FAA's COE have to do with...anything?

 

[coogebeachhotel]

AMP as cancelled by Bushy when he saw the downside...he slowed the entire process down when he came to the company; our Yoda and the director of flight standards were pushing to petition the FAA for a waiver/exemption before the study was even complete. Bushy stopped the whole process--that is management assessing the risk and taking appropriate action.

Again, the cabin cleaning thing is completely horse-beaten. It's your opinion. Ain't proof, sugar bear.

Hmmmm. A three man crew extending a duty day. Sounds rather like many a cargo operation out there, or even an augmented crew.

But you probably didn't know that they flew it augmented, did you?

Ahhhh...and what exactly does the FAA's COE have to do with...anything?

Yep knew it was augmented.

 

[waveflyer]

i never minded the fatigue experiment. i'm way more tired by the length of duty day and total days at work than i am by the amount that i fly in one day. but it is disconcerting that no union is involved in the decision process- considering it's line pilots who would have to live with it.

 

[PsubS]

Coogebeachhotel wrote:

All the pro AMP pilots went into the game knowing what they had to do to make the experiment work. If you know what I mean. Hardly an unbiased experiment

Yep knew it was augmented.

So, you still have not shown me how it was unbiased...do you have evidence?

Would you like to read the actual study? http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2006/00000077/00000012/art00007

And for your suggestion to do a redeye turn...that would be folly. And it was never suggested.

but it is disconcerting that no union is involved in the decision process- considering it's line pilots who would have to live with it.

Waveflyer, with all respect, could you forsee a cooperative effort between management and the pilot group to establish strict rules governing these types of flights?

In other words, (and to summarize the thread) does a union have to exist to negotiate an appropriate level of pay, work rules, etc? Or (gasp) could it be done differently?

 

[coogebeachhotel]

Coogebeachhotel wrote:


So, you still have not shown me how it was unbiased...do you have evidence?

Would you like to read the actual study? http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/asma/asem/2006/00000077/00000012/art00007

And for your suggestion to do a redeye turn...that would be folly. And it was never suggested.



Waveflyer, with all respect, could you forsee a cooperative effort between management and the pilot group to establish strict rules governing these types of flights?

In other words, (and to summarize the thread) does a union have to exist to negotiate an appropriate level of pay, work rules, etc? Or (gasp) could it be done differently?

A union is absolutely needed in this industry. You must still be in your military bubble. Thats fine just wait.

Having sat next to the guru behind the experiment I got the full scoop. Enough said.

 

[PCL_128]

In other words, (and to summarize the thread) does a union have to exist to negotiate an appropriate level of pay, work rules, etc?

Yes, it does.

 

[Caveman]

Some of you are still missing the point.

There are serious deficiencies in regards to our 401K and LOL/STD/LTD that can not be fixed unless we have a CBA. It is illegal to create separate plans for any specific group of individuals unless they are separately organized. A350 or Blue Bayou, how do you propose we address those issues without a CBA?

 

[waveflyer]

Coogebeachhotel wrote:

In other words, (and to summarize the thread) does a union have to exist to negotiate an appropriate level of pay, work rules, etc? Or (gasp) could it be done differently?

i think you have preconceptions of what a union is.
answer this- do you collectively bargain right now? meaning- can an individual pilot go to mgmt- show their work record and quals and negotiate a higher salary than that of any of their peers?
Is advancement based solely on seniority?
IOW- aren't you set up exactly like a union now?
You have individual contracts now? is that right? what advantage does that give you?

In our industry- we all collectively bargain and use a seniority system to determine the pecking order. I've lobbied for years that it's a dumb way to set up our career since airlines fail and go through bk more often now. But it is the way it is.
I don't see how individual contracts gives you any leverage in our industry considering it's not realistic to go to any other airline and say 'i've got 8000 hours , 4 types, 5000 pic, masters degree- good attitude and employment record- what can you offer me?' iow-leverage in other careers comes from an individual having the ability to change companies and increase their pay, responsibilities, and benefits. We don't have that. The only competition that takes place is in the first few years- after which- our leverage comes from our collective action.
Without a union- there is no collective action. Hence, no leverage.

Why- in any business deal- would you reduce your leverage? Why would a company ask you to? They may be playing nice- but the 'market' wage you're getting now- comes from the 'industry standard' which came from other pilot groups exerting their leverage through their union.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

AMP as cancelled by Bushy when he saw the downside...he slowed the entire process down when he came to the company; our Yoda and the director of flight standards were pushing to petition the FAA for a waiver/exemption before the study was even complete. Bushy stopped the whole process--that is management assessing the risk and taking appropriate action.

Just like the cabin cleaning, I doubt you'll find creditbility for the study....

Again, the cabin cleaning thing is completely horse-beaten. It's your opinion. Ain't proof, sugar bear.

So answer this: Do pilots if UAL, DAL, NWA, and SWA respect you more or less? An honest answer would be nice....

Hmmmm. A three man crew extending a duty day. Sounds rather like many a cargo operation out there, or even an augmented crew.

But you probably didn't know that they flew it augmented, did you?

That is irreelevant. Why did the FAA in Wash DC respond the way they did? An honest answer would be nice..

Ahhhh...and what exactly does the FAA's COE have to do with...anything?

Perhaps you missed what I stated... the FAA has defined a profession as one that has a CoE. Methinks you don't understand what a Code Of Ethics is all about....

Even ALPA didn't have one until the 1970s....

 

[PsubS]

Res--

I obviously will not convince you of anything I say. That's to be expected, as you apparently are not willing to exchange ideas, but just transmit. I will end my short sojurn back to the dark side of FI with this....

You originally made three points that illustrated how JetBlue needed a union. You still have not adequately told me how they apply. I'm just asking you to explain your own statements, but you can't.

Your lack of understanding of the fatigue study is stunning. You haven't read it, or else you would understand that the science behind it was quite sound. I even posted a link to it for you. Show me otherwise, please. Othewise, just keep this point to yourself, else you will just show your ignorance on the subject.

Why did the FAA in DC get upset? Beats me--Ask them. We got approval to do the evaluation from the FAA, period.

As for what Delta, Southwest, and other pilot groups think of me...what do I really care? I do know that more often than not, when I have American, United or other crews non-reving onboard, they help clean up a bit, just as I do. It ain't rocket science!

Finally, your insistence on the COE is interesting. Are you trying to show that because the FAA defined a COE as integral to a profession, we must adopt one as an airline?

Oh, you're so confusing. But amusingly so.

Just my opinion.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Res--

I obviously will not convince you of anything I say. That's to be expected, as you apparently are not willing to exchange ideas, but just transmit. I will end my short sojurn back to the dark side of FI with this....

That is because you offer no debate. Just because you believe it and you said it three times doesn't mean much. I get it... you believe it. But you offer no compelling reason or persuasiveness.

You originally made three points that illustrated how JetBlue needed a union. You still have not adequately told me how they apply. I'm just asking you to explain your own statements, but you can't.

Yes I have. You don't want to be objective. In addition, others have tried to reason with you on this thread.. I'll try reason one more time...

Cabin cleaning pilots doesn't help with a professional image. At SWA and the airline I fly for, non english speaking immigrants clean cabins for minimum wage. They scurry the aisles quickly getting out of the way as passengers in aft rows still exit. When passengers and pilots see this and either see or know that JB pilots clean too, it doesn't help your respectability and image.

Question: would you prefer to clean or not? JB is the only airline of its stature that has cabin cleaning pilots. It has no union. Coincidence? And honest answer reply from you would be nice. It would enhance this debate. I might learn something...

Your lack of understanding of the fatigue study is stunning. You haven't read it, or else you would understand that the science behind it was quite sound. I even posted a link to it for you. Show me otherwise, please. Othewise, just keep this point to yourself, else you will just show your ignorance on the subject.

Again, I am not debating the science and study. I am debating conducting the study on the public.

Why did the FAA in DC get upset? Beats me--Ask them. We got approval to do the evaluation from the FAA, period.

If you don't know the answer then you are not being objective. You know the answer why... you just don't want to honestly debate the issue on this forum.

As for what Delta, Southwest, and other pilot groups think of me...what do I really care?

Not a good attitude. Especially going forward.. there will be big changes in the Air Line Pilot profession in the next 10-20 years and beyond.

You have no voice and no say in those changes. You will accept those changes whether you like it or not. More importantly, to protect your job you;ll need friends.. not caring doesn't help...

I do know that more often than not, when I have American, United or other crews non-reving onboard, they help clean up a bit, just as I do. It ain't rocket science!

As a non-rev'er I do the same... there is a difference.

Finally, your insistence on the COE is interesting. Are you trying to show that because the FAA defined a COE as integral to a profession, we must adopt one as an airline?

You really are having a hard time with this....

Adopt one as an airline? No. not an airline. I've told you in other post.. this has nothing to do with airlines or companies. This has to do with the profession of Air Line Pilots...

Questions for you...

Does JB management care about the Air Line Pilot Profession. Are they the custodians?

Does gov't care?

Does the public care?

Only pilots care about the Profession. It is up to you to define, keep and better the profession. You can't really do that without representation...

Oh, you're so confusing. But amusingly so.

Just my opinion.

Yes it is.. Hopefully you will take this discussion seriously and respond to the issues....

 

[Bavarian Chef]

I do know that more often than not, when I have American, United or other crews non-reving onboard, they help clean up a bit, just as I do.

I call BS on this one. FAs yes, pilots NO. Been here 3 years, never seen it when I am working.

Plus I am a commuter from a decent sized non-revving city as well. Never seen that happen either on my 4 commutes a month.

The cabin cleaning thing is indeed a dead horse, but let's not spin it to suit your particular kind of blue juice concentrate.

And yes, I help. Oddly enough, many captains I fly with don't. I never do so in front of passengers though. I just don't think that's the image they need to have of pilots.


Caveman -- you keep trying to get an answer to those questions, god bless you. When you get a response from Blue Dude or A350 let us know.