JB or Airtran?

[tailhookah]

The E190 captain bid just ended. 140 guys got the final bid (after some didn't get it due to their own percentage requests) so the upgrade for a new hire is projected at just over 1 year. So if you get the 190 out of the gate you will be captain upgrade material (w/ current business plan) at over 1 year. Your pay over the first 2-3 years will be almost even. 6 for 1..... half dozen to the other. I love B6 and am really happy. I know guys at ATran and they are happy. Go with the best commute...... yada yada yada.

tail..... gettin some daily.

 

[On Your Six]

The E190 captain bid just ended. 140 guys got the final bid (after some didn't get it due to their own percentage requests) so the upgrade for a new hire is projected at just over 1 year. So if you get the 190 out of the gate you will be captain upgrade material (w/ current business plan) at over 1 year. Your pay over the first 2-3 years will be almost even. 6 for 1..... half dozen to the other. I love B6 and am really happy. I know guys at ATran and they are happy. Go with the best commute...... yada yada yada.

tail..... gettin some daily.

I see a lot people on this board who are for some reason negative about the E190 (perhaps because of its "regional" heritage - even though it shouldn't be classified as such given it has 100 seats). I, on the other hand, am a big fan of the E170 and I think the E190 will be even better in terms of passenger acceptance. The E170 cockpit is very advanced and it looks pretty spacious up front - so the E190 will be very comfortable up front. I think when you compare the E190 to the 717, they rank pretty similar in terms of passenger comfort and technology - although the E190 can fly a lot farther... Flying the E190 at JetBlue might be a great thing and people shouldn't discount that aircraft because of its Embraer regional heritage... The FO pay is embarrassing, but the aircraft itself looks like a winner...

 

[XGmaninGA]

I'm kind of partial to the good ole 737NG, even if you do have to set your watch back 15 years when you step onto the flightdeck.

 

[SWPA Pilot]

If you know anyone at AirTran who was hired before 2003, then you should tell them to leave AirTran and do something else.

I would say that commutability is a VERY important tie breaker, all other things being equal.

I really like it here. I know there are always exceptions, but I really think the pilots here are great. From the Burgh, the commute is pretty easy. I never interviewed with Jet Blue, but the commute from Pittsburgh for their commuters is definitely tougher than mine to ATL.

KC-10 Driver really likes JetBlue, and I think he faced some similar decisions as well.

Good luck

Steelers fan,

Are you still in the 'Burgh? Have a Permanti Sammich and an Iron for me.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

My goal is AT because I'm from and live in ATL. My advice or worthless, but if in your shoes and lived in the ATL area AT is an easy choice.

 

[Steeler Fan]

Steelers fan,

Are you still in the 'Burgh? Have a Permanti Sammich and an Iron for me.

It's 1:15 AM on a Friday night, the perfect time for a Cheese Steak an aht!

 

[CatfishVT9]

I'm kind of partial to the good ole 737NG, even if you do have to set your watch back 15 years when you step onto the flightdeck.

Unless you're coming out of the Navy, then you're giddy about having some automation. This is the first aircraft I've been in that even has a heading bug!

True story; I was at Sun &Fun last year and went in a B-17 cockpit. It had some of the gauges in it that we still used in the mighty T-2.......

 

[XBOEINGDRVR]

Thanks everyone for the your thoughts, All good stuff.

 

[bandit317]

Must be nice. I got rejected from both in the last 2 months.
Next!

 

[SkiFishFly]

Bandit317,

Any insight as to why the rejection? Did you feel you made any mistakes or said anything wrong or controversial in the interviews?
Appreciate any insight you could give the rest of us who are hoping for an interview call and don't want to get that dreaded letter afterwards.

 

[Vref+10]

I had this very discussion with one of my friends who flies at Airtran. Here were his thoughts.

Airtran pluses:

Retirement (10% B Fund)
Higher Captain top out pay rate - $153/hr vs. $139/hr
Not required to clean the cabin
Union (non contract pilot)

Jetblue pluses:

More domicile options and choices - JFK, FLL, LGB
Possibly more growth
A320 vs. B717/B737 (A320 is probably more automated and roomy upfront)


Now I realize that Jetblue gets 150% for everthing over 70 hrs. So I compared the blended rate at Jetblue flying 90 hrs, vs. the Airtran CA top-out rate at 90 hrs. They both came out to the same per month. So you could argue that the pay is relatively the same.

Growth- That's a toss up. To my knowledge Airtran had orders for 50 B737s and options for 50 more. Jetblue has orders for 100 EMB190s, and how many A320s? Just a hunch, but I think that the growth may be better at Jetblue.

I think that the FO pay at both airlines on the medium size a/c (B717/B737/A320) needs to be increased. Mainly on the top out end. It would be nice to see a top out rate of close to $100/hr.

Now I also think that the CA pay rate for the EMB190 which is a 100-seat jet is too low. It's maybe 20% more than your typical RJ CA 50-seater rate, yet you are flying double the amount of seats.

The two biggest things for me would be the retirement at Airtran vs. the domicile choices at Jetblue. To me they both go hand-in-hand. I realize that Jetblue has profit sharing, but that is something that would fluctuate, and you can't count that as a retirement program. Jetblue has 401K, which can be your retirement. But that is money you have to take out of your pay and fund your own retirement with.

Also interesting to note is that Jetblue seems to operate more on a point-to-point route system. Where Airtran operates more on a hub type route system via ATL.

I will apply to both airlines, and more than likely won't even have the ability to make a choice between the two.

But it's good to have an educated discussion. Thoughts, comments, please. From both Airtran and Jetblue pilots.

 

[SWPA Pilot]

It's 1:15 AM on a Friday night, the perfect time for a Cheese Steak an aht!

I'll have to get one next time I get dahn tahn. What do yinz think about dem Stillers? I am a diehard fan, but will they ever make it past the AFC Championship game? Should be good enough to get back there this year unless Ben has a sophmore slump.

 

[Ty Webb]

Vref+10 pretty much summed it up. There are a couple of other variables, too.

AirTran is in contract negotiations. While this will no doubt result in an improvement in pay and work rules, the upcoming months could be somewhat unpleasant, since the company missed the opportunity to avoid a 1990's style contract fight.

The other item is the two company's possible moves in the face of industry consolidation. I see AirTran as being more likely to be invoved in merger activity, which could be good or bad.

The final consideration to me is the "personality" of the pilot groups. I am sure JB has many fine pilots. I myself really enjoy coming to work and getting a chance to catch up with everyone in the crew room. A great bunch of guys.

 

[1-tacan-rule]

Choices...choices....

I had offers from both...based on my assessment below, which do you think I chose:

-Monthly pay essentially the same (counting jB premium pay, not counting EMB pay)

-10.5% B-fund essentially the same as jB profit sharing. Neither you can totally count on...but for now, about the same.

-My interview experience:
....Airtran: "Be there on this day, recommend this hotel."
....jB: "Be there on this day, we're picking up the hotel cost and your offline airline tic (up to $400)."

-My interview experience:
....it's a wash because I can honestly say that the three AT folks who interviewed me were nice, cool, top-notch, made me feel welcome. Same for the gazillion jB people I met at that interview.

-newhire pilot reports from "orientation":
....Airtran: "Welcome to AT,guys, things are getting ugly, we want more productivity, industry is scary, towit: don't expect any big pay raises."
....jB: "Glad to have you here...how about 6000 stock options? here's keys to your hotel and room that we're paying for."

-Leadership:
....Airtran: according to this board, Sr Mgt took huge bonuses
....JB: #1 and #2 take no pay (don't get me wrong, I'm sure they are fairly compensated through stock,etc)...Every jB pilot I've met have nothing but good things to say about these guys.

Assessment: The linchpin to jB success: Inspired Leadership.

Union (my take): A union is not required if you have employees who are happy with their company, what it stands for, and especially, if they trust their leadership.

p.s. Falconjet just doesn't like Mormons.....

 

[Mooseflyer]

the company missed the opportunity to avoid a 1990's style contract fight.

Ty, can you explain what you mean here? What was done?

 

[-9Capt]

-10.5% B-fund essentially the same as jB profit sharing. Neither you can totally count on...but for now, about the same.

.....

Why can't AirTran pilots totally count on the 10.5% B-fund, it's part of our regular pay.

 

[G4G5]

Ask any UAL/USAir pilot about counting on his retirement. My guess is, that's what he means. If it was me I would still consider it because the odds of Airtran being here in 20 years are a whole lot better then any legacy carrier.
Pay can go both ways.
If you look at 12 year pay then Airtran is the obvious winner
153 x 70 x 12 = $133,560 VS 139 x 70 x 12 = $116,760
When I am in my 50's I will have no desire to ever fly 90 hours just so I can make the same pay as an Airtran pilot. Then add another $14k a year for retirement.

Now to be fair B6 has no 12 year pilots so if you look at 6th year CA pay, (highest B6 pilot) the numbers are equal.
$123 B6 VS $124 Airtran. Now if you add in B6's overtime they are the obvious winner.
The only question would be how much do you trust D&D to do the right thing and put 12 year pay on parody with Airtran and SWA? Prior to seeing the 190 numbers I would have felt a whole lot better, now I am not so sure.

The next biggest thing is bases/commuting? Sure B6 has FLL and LGB but how confident are you that you wil be able to hold a descent quality of life line out of those much smaller, much senior bases, in the left seat of an A320, with B6's fairly junior seniority list? Or will a large % of your career be spent commuting in and out of JFK to get a quicker up grade and better schedules? JFK will always be the master base.
Or would you rather commute or live in Atlanta? Maybe you are like me, I live in NY.

I have more faith in Lenord to stick with it for the long term. Just look at how he managed to turn around the ValuJet crash. Who would have thought 10 years ago that Airtran would be what it is today after the 592 accident?
Sure Dave has what it takes to run an airline, he has proved it over and over at quite a few different airlines.

 

[BluDevAv8r]

Ask any UAL/USAir pilot about counting on his B fund. My guess is, that's what he means.

Those UAL and AAA pilots can still count on their B Fund. It is "protected" money and not at all like the A Fund, which is a traditional defined benefit plan. Now if the contract calls for the B Fund to be paid out solely in company stock which cannot be sold, then that is another story...

-Neal

 

[Steeler Fan]

Ask any UAL/USAir pilot about counting on his B fund. My guess is, that's what he means.

US Air didn't have a B fund, did they?

 

[G4G5]

My mistake, ment to say retirement