It's like AT ALPA is trying to burn their undeserved lottery ticket...

[madjack]

Fudgepacker:

The AAI pilots are making more money, why can't the SWA pilots?

 

[Fubijaakr]

GB,

You obviously don't know how "no bump/no flush" works.

Its not primarily for the benefit of individual pilots. Its for the benefit of the Company. Can you imagine the training costs if you have a system flush bid?

How many training events does that generate? Is that really what you want?

In reality, here's the way it works.

1. Generate a system SLI based on DoH.
2. Fill all NEW vacancies with the new system seniority list.

Granted, as you point out there will be 6 year CAs and 10 year F/Os. However, the day the first guy retires, one of the 10 year F/Os will get the bid.

Likewise, if one of the 6 year ATL CAs elects to bid F/O and a SWA base for QOL reasons, that ATL bid will be filled with an SWA CA or senior F/O.

If you don't want to fly with a CA junior to you, don't bid or fly ATL trips.

Eventually, all the F/Os senior to AAI CAs will end up as CAs senior to the AAI CAs.

The AAI CAs will be able to hold what they have as long as they stay in ATL or MCO. But if they elect to go to another base, they can only hold the seat/position their seniority can hold.

What really is the problem with that? You couldn't have been an ATL CA without the merger because YOU DIDN'T HAVE AN ATL CREW BASE.

Its amazing how the obvious escapes you guys.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Exactly. All these guys are hanging their hat (if they wear one, that is!) on is the Shuttle America arbitration.

NO OTHER arbitration has used pay rates for SLI.

The only thing waveygravey is fishing for is, "We went to another airline or from the military for a better paycheck." No ********************, Sherlock.

However, he still won't say why it matters how much another SWA pilot makes, does he?

The only reason it matters is that is wavey's reason for stealing someone else's seniority and jumping the line for an upgrade so....

Wait for it....

Wait for it...

HE CAN MAKE MORE MONEY!

What a surprise.

Fuji you continue with the talk of line jumping and seniority theft. I'm a junior f/o. One of the ones on paper that benefits the most from a "seniority bump". Here is one for you in a no growth reitrement only driven upgrade my date is basically the same with this deal as it was before the aquisition. I went to public school in Indiana. Please explain to me how I'm jumping the line when my date hasn't changed.

 

[Fubijaakr]

I went to public school in Indiana. Please explain to me how I'm jumping the line when my date hasn't changed.

Tell your parents to ask for their tax money back. Are you serious?

You staple 650 pilots behind you and ban them from upgrading for a decade and you don't understand that you're jumping in front of them.

How can you honestly be that obtuse?

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

GB,

You obviously don't know how "no bump/no flush" works.

Its not primarily for the benefit of individual pilots. Its for the benefit of the Company. Can you imagine the training costs if you have a system flush bid?

How many training events does that generate? Is that really what you want?

In reality, here's the way it works.

1. Generate a system SLI based on DoH.
2. Fill all NEW vacancies with the new system seniority list.

Granted, as you point out there will be 6 year CAs and 10 year F/Os. However, the day the first guy retires, one of the 10 year F/Os will get the bid.

Likewise, if one of the 6 year ATL CAs elects to bid F/O and a SWA base for QOL reasons, that ATL bid will be filled with an SWA CA or senior F/O.

If you don't want to fly with a CA junior to you, don't bid or fly ATL trips.

Eventually, all the F/Os senior to AAI CAs will end up as CAs senior to the AAI CAs.

The AAI CAs will be able to hold what they have as long as they stay in ATL or MCO. But if they elect to go to another base, they can only hold the seat/position their seniority can hold.

What really is the problem with that? You couldn't have been an ATL CA without the merger because YOU DIDN'T HAVE AN ATL CREW BASE.

Its amazing how the obvious escapes you guys.

I understand perfectly how no bump no flush works. I am normally a company guy but they choose to acquire AAI with no input from any of the employees on either side and should be prepared to pay the costs associated with retraining. Of course they knew they wouldn't have to do that becuase no arbitrator will remove captains of a non bankrupt carrier from those seats.
Your solution of DOH no bump no flush doesn't work because while the AAI guys retain their captain seats out of seniority and AAI F/Os get the full benefit of the SWA retirements while the junior SWA f/os lose them. Our upgrade gets pushed to never while the relatively younger AAI group floats to the top of the combined list and stays there.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Tell your parents to ask for their task money back. Are you serious?

You staple 650 pilots behind you and ban them from upgrading for a decade and you don't understand that you're jumping in front of them.

How can you honestly be that obtuse?

So it is your position that the "fair" solution is that the AAI f/os should receive the full benefit of the SWA retirements? That pushes a lot of SWA junior f/os upgrade dates past their retirement dates. I get it now. The AAI captains keep their seats and they get our retirements. It's really all about them because we had no career expectations.

 

[Lear70]

So it is your position that the "fair" solution is that the AAI f/os should receive the full benefit of the SWA retirements? That pushes a lot of SWA junior f/os upgrade dates past their retirement dates. I get it now. The AAI captains keep their seats and they get our retirements. It's really all about them because we had no career expectations.

No, but would it have really hurt to have tossed our senior F/O's a bone and let us keep our own attrition, our own upgrades from the aircraft that are delivered in addition to yours, and any deliberate AAI CA downgrades for QoL?

That still results in no earlier movement for you to the CA seat, according to what you posted earlier, correct? So what would it have hurt to let each side keep their own movement independent of their position on the ISL?

Yes, that was proposed. It was also shot down.

All the terms and conditions would keep our crews segregated for a decade, fighting for interpretations, and aggravated for years to come. I *WANT* a negotiated solution, but I'm wondering if an arbitrated one with no one to be angry at except the arbitrator would be a better way to go...

 

[waveflyer]

So much short term thinking here- the problem is the AT group is much younger and if placed senior will ALWAYS be senior- for getting on earlier at an easier carrier to get on with- sorry but the years longer it takes to get the higher paying, more stable, competitive job should be rewarded. Their FOs don't deserve being slotted in front of CJ FOR BEING BOUGHT.
Getting bought was the risk you took getting on and staying with a lower paying, younger, carrier- it happened-
You guys should all just be glad American didn't buy you. Think we're cocky- any of the legacies buy you and they'd take it all the way to staple and would force it on you. The ONLY reason they're taking up for you now is bc they hate on southwest- that's it.

Hey fubi- you're an over emotional troll, but I love that avatar!

Good day fellas- off to play with the hottest girl....
We all get one vote- don't ruin your day over it-

 

[MRW]

No, but would it have really hurt to have tossed our senior F/O's a bone and let us keep our own attrition, our own upgrades from the aircraft that are delivered in addition to yours, and any deliberate AAI CA downgrades for QoL?

That still results in no earlier movement for you to the CA seat, according to what you posted earlier, correct? So what would it have hurt to let each side keep their own movement independent of their position on the ISL?

Yes, that was proposed. It was also shot down.

All the terms and conditions would keep our crews segregated for a decade, fighting for interpretations, and aggravated for years to come. I *WANT* a negotiated solution, but I'm wondering if an arbitrated one with no one to be angry at except the arbitrator would be a better way to go...

Hey lear, I guess you want all your growth and seniority, that you had at AAI but you also want SWA pay? Riddle me that? Why dont I just give you my SWA ID now and roll over like a dumbass border collie!

 

[scoreboardII]

So what would it have hurt to let each side keep their own movement independent of their position on the ISL?
...

Yes, it would, because WE, the pilots of SWAPA bought and paid for those jets, yours and ours, with our no growth over the previous 3-5 years.

In reality however, this deal has nothing to do with what you brought. It has everything to do with leveling the end game seniority picture so everyone has the same opportunity. Your much younger group (because of attrition to other carriers) is slanted heavily to dominate our seniority list in the out years. That is what this SLI is all about. I don't like it either. Sounds like a deal then. If your older than the mean, you are screwed either way.

Oh, don't undersell a border collie, thems smart animals.

 

[737tanker]

If you don't want to fly with a CA junior to you, don't bid or fly ATL trips.

If it was only that easy. As a SWA Capt any former AirTran Capt will be able to pick up trips via Give Away or Open time at any SWA base. Additionally not all AirTran pilots will be staying in ATL as ATL will be downsized to a SWA sized domicile. Those displaced from ATL will keep their Capt seats but will be based at current SWA domiciles. So there most likely will be former AirTran Capt flying as SWA Capts at all of the SWA bases and there will be no way for a SWA F/O to bid away from flying with a Capt who is junior to him.

 

[ASADFW7]

The first deal had AAI keeping their retirements but they negotiated it away for something else. Don't blame SWA blame AAI alpa.

 

[Lear70]

Hey lear, I guess you want all your growth and seniority, that you had at AAI but you also want SWA pay? Riddle me that? Why dont I just give you my SWA ID now and roll over like a dumbass border collie!

Good boy. Stay. Staaaayyy...

Hey, you put it out there...

In all seriousness, I didn't say we wanted all our seniority (relative has always been a pipe dream, I said that from day one). I was replying to Ghetto Jet's comment about "wanting all YOUR growth". I simply asked what was wrong with just asking for what was already ours?

What I *DID* say was that, by YOUR argument, our deliveries and retirements don't speed up ANY of your pilots' upgrade. SEVERAL of you have stated that. Since that's your position, then it also falls to reason that if we KEEP our attrition, our downgraded CA slots, and our own delivery upgrades, then you would realize NO career stagnation as a result, correct? Hey, they're not helping you, so they can't hurt you, right?

Therefore, even if you keep this ISL (which I still don't think is fair), if our senior F/O's were allowed to continue to upgrade as they would have pre-snapshot, they'd still be junior to your senior F/O's so that when your senior F/O's upgrade on your previously-expected timeline (remember, our attrition and deliveries don't help you, right?), then your upgrading F/O's, once CA's will be senior to our junior CA's. We win. You win. What's wrong with shared benefit?

 

[madjack]

if our senior F/O's were allowed to continue to upgrade as they would have pre-snapshot, they'd still be junior to your senior F/O's so that when your senior F/O's upgrade on your previously-expected timeline (remember, our attrition and deliveries don't help you, right?), then your upgrading F/O's, once CA's will be senior to our junior CA's. We win. You win. What's wrong with shared benefit?


Lear, you speak of upgrades pre snapshot....well there is no more AAI, we are all one team (or will be) and your upgrade time pre snapshot cease to exist after the acquisition...

 

[Lear70]

Lear, you speak of upgrades pre snapshot....well there is no more AAI, we are all one team (or will be) and your upgrade time pre snapshot cease to exist after the acquisition...

So let me get this straight.

You want to argue that you don't want your upgrade to be slowed, thus protecting your pre-snapshot expectations.

Then you want to argue that pre-snapshot issues cease to exist after the acquisition...

Which is it?

 

[MCDU]

So much short term thinking here- the problem is the AT group is much younger and if placed senior will ALWAYS be senior- for getting on earlier at an easier carrier to get on with- sorry but the years longer it takes to get the higher paying, more stable, competitive job should be rewarded. Their FOs don't deserve being slotted in front of CJ FOR BEING BOUGHT.
Getting bought was the risk you took getting on and staying with a lower paying, younger, carrier- it happened-
You guys should all just be glad American didn't buy you. Think we're cocky- any of the legacies buy you and they'd take it all the way to staple and would force it on you. The ONLY reason they're taking up for you now is bc they hate on southwest- that's it.

Hey fubi- you're an over emotional troll, but I love that avatar!

Good day fellas- off to play with the hottest girl....
We all get one vote- don't ruin your day over it-

You are a Hypocrite.

M

 

[waveflyer]

Am I now?
Esplain senior-

Still waiting on OYS to define "better future"

 

[General Lee]

So it is your position that the "fair" solution is that the AAI f/os should receive the full benefit of the SWA retirements? That pushes a lot of SWA junior f/os upgrade dates past their retirement dates. I get it now. The AAI captains keep their seats and they get our retirements. It's really all about them because we had no career expectations.

The NWA pilots argued the same point to the 3 arbitrators during the SLI, that their side had a lot more retirements coming up than the DL side, and that they should be given credit for that in the SLI. The arbitrators decided that wasn't important. You probably would lose that argument in arbitration, and that might be another reason your group doesn't want to go there.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

No, but would it have really hurt to have tossed our senior F/O's a bone and let us keep our own attrition, our own upgrades from the aircraft that are delivered in addition to yours, and any deliberate AAI CA downgrades for QoL?

That still results in no earlier movement for you to the CA seat, according to what you posted earlier, correct? So what would it have hurt to let each side keep their own movement independent of their position on the ISL?

Yes, that was proposed. It was also shot down.

All the terms and conditions would keep our crews segregated for a decade, fighting for interpretations, and aggravated for years to come. I *WANT* a negotiated solution, but I'm wondering if an arbitrated one with no one to be angry at except the arbitrator would be a better way to go...

I think I have been stating that all along. Everyone, including GK, can point a finger at someone else, and you don't have to be mad at the guy next to you. It is the way of the future, letting someone on the outside decide what is and isn't fair.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Hey lear, I guess you want all your growth and seniority, that you had at AAI but you also want SWA pay? Riddle me that? Why dont I just give you my SWA ID now and roll over like a dumbass border collie!

Are you giving up any pay for this deal? Are you gaining any pay? The DL pilots didn't get a huge pay raise for the merger, only about 5% and some stock (up to 3600 shares each), along with a 17% payraise over 4 years and some work rule changes. If you are not getting anything other than the Airtran pilots' seats and all future growth, (which really isn't fair), then maybe you should ask your own management for a small pay raise and some stock.


Bye Bye--General Lee