Israeli consul denied seat on U.S. flt.

[TIMP]

After reading all these posts I can't help but believe there is a great misunderstanding about the authority of a PIC.

Contrary to what many think, a PIC working for an employer DOES NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT, have the authority to arbitrarily make any final decision concerning the aircraft he/she is flying. The PIC's authority only goes as far as the SAFETY of the aircraft and passengers, and his decision MUST be able to "hold water." And, counter to what "Flyinbrian" believes, the PIC certainly is accountable to a higher authority. If you don't believe this then you are definitely new to aviation.

An employer hires a PIC to make safe and sound decisions which will benifit the success of the company. If a PIC gets a "brain cramp" and decides to kick off all passengers because they are wearing blue shoes, he will surely be pulled onto the carpet for such an irrational decision.

Besides being accountable to your boss, you are also accountable to your FO and all the passengers on board. If I'm riding in the back as a pax, you can be darn sure I'm holding that PIC accountable for getting me safely to my destination. And if he delays the flight because of some "bull#@%" personal issue I'll will make sure he gets a "reality check."

If you go through your aviation career thinking you are GOD on your aircraft, you will certainly have a bumpy ride.

Timp

 

[surplus1]

God never made captain, but He's always the co-pilot.

 

[desert pilot]

TIMP, thanx for adding some logic and knowledge to this topic,I was lucky years ago to change a strange decision a major airline made to kick off certain passengers...yeh the dirty MEDIA...

 

[s.o.sJTB]

watching alon pinkas doing an interview on tv right now, what an arrogant schmuck!

 

[asacap]

This captain made a poor decision and a spectacle of himself. He greatly exceeded his authority and made his decision based on Pinkas's nationality and religion. This is wrong and discraceful anyway you slice it. I agree that the PIC has the right to refuse service if there is a legitamate safety concern. Like any other mistake a Captain makes, he must be accountable. The muslim secret service agent who was denied boarding on the AA flight had improper paper work and a fire arm. These are two completely different set of circumstances. If the decision was based on his Arab decent, I would say that was wrong also, but I don't believe this was the case.
Being an airline pilot is a tremendous responsability. I love my job and feel honored to have this priviledge. I hate to second guess a fellow Captain but I can see absolutely no grounds or circumstance that would justify his decision. I don't think he should lose his job over this but there should be some form of discipline.
About that comment I read earlier regarding foreigners and their rights, unless you are native american, you are a decendent of foreigners.

 

[asacap]

Hey Dep676 & Acestick,
If the Captain refused to fly Hispanics, African Americans, or Catholics, would you still support him? The captain had no logical reasoning when he made this decision. It is much more than just hurting the feelings of a few foreigners. This is predjudice and bigitry. I don't beieve the FAR's include this in the PIC authority.

 

[surplus1]

Frogs.

Careful, you're getting personal.

Another "Frog".

 

[chawbein]

OOOOH, What the h*ll...

The pilot obviously felt that carrying a high ranking Israeli official on his airplane posed an unnecessary risk to the airplane. Think about it, how hard is it to blow up an airplane????? Not very! As far as if Arafat was on an airplane, you wouldn't have to worry about it because the Israeli government doesn't blow up airplanes filled with innocent people. I agree that the risk was negligible and I probably wouldn't have made the same decision.

P.S. I have no idea about anyone's nationality, but when I saw frenchy's name, I thought "frogs". I could care less about your country of origin.

P.P.S. I happen to have several French Army rifles, they are in excellent shape, never been fired and only dropped once.

 

[s.o.sJTB]

'you wouldn't have to worry about it because the Israeli government doesn't blow up airplanes filled with innocent people. '

originaly posted by chawbein



Not true Isreali fighter jets shot down a libyan arab airlines 727 that strayed into isreali airspace in the 70's, the aircraft was identified as a civilian craft but was shot down in retalition for libyan support of terrorist events in the period. targeting and killing civillians is a terrorist act, wether your a lone suicide bomber or in the name of a state military.

Also does anyone remember the isreali attack on the U.S. military ship the USS Liberty during the 1967 war killing several american sailors? Isreal is not an innocent little victim!

 

[enigma]

Some of ya'll are quite quick to condem the Captain. I need more information before I'm willing to commit.

First, was the Captain scared of the Israeli, or of the possibility that some terrorist might blow up his 757 in order to assassinate the Israeli?

Did the Captain have some knowledge of a terrorist threat against either the Israeli or the airline?

Had the Captain witnessed some suspicious activity in the terminal previous to the flight?

Had there been any odd occurences at the screening checkpoint prior to the flight?

Obviously, we can use our 20/20 hindsite to observe just how "stupid" this Captain was, I hope that some of you are never in the position to be second guessed. I don't think you would take it very well.

8N

 

[surplus1]

Chaw,

I was only pulling your chain a little. I'm often called a Frog and don't take it as an insult. In fact I'm quite proud of that ancestry. Maybe frenchy is more sensitive, though.

The pilot obviously felt that carrying a high ranking Israeli official on his airplane posed an unnecessary risk to the airplane. Think about it, how hard is it to blow up an airplane????? Not very! As far as if Arafat was on an airplane, you wouldn't have to worry about it because the Israeli government doesn't blow up airplanes filled with innocent people. I agree that the risk was negligible and I probably wouldn't have made the same decision.

Perhaps you're not as aware of the Israeli history as others. Don't believe everything you hear on FOX news. The spin doesn't really stop there, in fact there is more "spin" there than anywhere else.

As someone beat me to the punch in pointing out, the Israeli air force attacked an American military vessle in the Med and killed many innocent American sailors. They said it was a "mistake". Sure. If one of those dead young sailors was my kid, I wouldn't see it as a "mistake". They have also shot down airliners with civilians on board. When they were attempting to establish the state of Israel, they engaged in terrorism of many varieties.

I'm not in favor or against the Captain's decision. I don't know enough about it to choose sides. Read what enigma wrote, he is 100% correct.

However, I admit openly that I would be just as concerned about the safety of my airplane and my passengers if I had among them a highly level Israeli official or a high level Palestinian official. Those people hate each other and I have no idea what either of them would do if they thought it necessary. I see their presence as a threat.

I don't favor either one of them and do not wish to participate in their war with each other on any terms.

Flame me if you wish, but I also do not agree with my government's official position in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. We are not impartial brokers of peace. We clearly support the Israelis no matter what they do. I don't agree with that.

That's thread creap so I'll shut up.

Don't judge the Captain until we know why he made his decision. That's the bottom line.

PS. I have no French rifles but I can sing the Marseillaise, in French. That help?

 

[asacap]

surplus1,

You forgot to mention all the attrocities commited by muslim exstremists against our country. I agree Israel has made some big mistakes, but so has the other side. Palestinians have attacked the American military and civilians on several occasions.

April 18, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. A truck-bomb detonated by a remote control exploded in front of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, killing 63 employees, including the CIA's Middle East director, and wounding 120. Hizballah, with financial backing from Iran, was responsible for the attack.

October 23, 1983, Beirut, Lebanon. A truck loaded with a bomb crashed into the lobby of the U.S. Marines headquarters in Beirut, killing 241 soldiers and wounding 81. The attack was carried out by Hizballah with the help of Syrian intelligence and financed by Iran.

April 12, 1984, Torrejon, Spain. Hizballah bombed a restaurant near an U.S. Air Force base in Torrejon, Spain, killing 18 servicemen and wounding 83 people.

Also TWA flight 847 that was hijacked and the Arab-Palestinian, Sirhan Sirhan, who shot Kennedy dead. There are literally hundres of these types of examples.

Also, Israel has shot down ONE airliner, not airliners (plural). And, as horrible as the attack of the USS Liberty was, I can't find any information that shows it wasn't a mistake, just some speculation.

 

[surplus1]

asacap,

I agree with you. Remember what I said? I'll say it again.

I don't favor either one of them and do not wish to participate in their war with each other on any terms.

Now, when it comes to the people that attacked us on 9-11, that's a whole different ball game. Whatever we do to them and the sooner we do, I'm a happy camper.

That has nothing to do with the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. They were not Palestinians, they were Saudis and Egyptians.

 

[Acestick]

HERE'S THE QUOTE-

"Hey Dep676 & Acestick,
If the Captain refused to fly Hispanics, African Americans, or Catholics, would you still support him? The captain had no logical reasoning when he made this decision. It is much more than just hurting the feelings of a few foreigners. This is predjudice and bigitry. I don't beieve the FAR's include this in the PIC authority"


Maybe you have been asleep for the last 10 years, but people from the middle east don't exactly have us on their Christmas card list...They hate us and everything about us, and the proof lies in the 2 attacks on the world trade center, the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole, and countless suicide bombers destroying U.S. Military barracks around the world...

Your telling me the captain had no logical reason???
Welcome to the new united states...If your from the middle east, you are gonna get profiled whether you like it or not...And you **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** well should because every terrorist attack done against the U.S. and its military have been carried out by people from guess where??

The middle east!!!

 

[frenchy]

Europe has a long history of arabs extremist and bombs, in the US we are not use to this and it was an eye opener.
I spent years in N Africa and I have seen both sides , the one thing I can say is that they are all guilty, the israelis are champions for blaming the otherside, when they carried the attack themselves, and the arabs are no saint, nevertheless I have some friends from the middle east that cannot be compare to the extremist .I strongly reccomend that we do not condemm everybody because of their religion.
Hey Chaw which rifles do you have???