Israeli consul denied seat on U.S. flt.

[surplus1]

I'm not defending or condeming the Captain in this incident, but after reading all your posts, I just have to ask this question.

IF the passenger denied boarding had be Yasser Arafat, Plaestinian President instead of Alon Pinkas, Israeli Consul General, would all your posts be the same or would they change?

Be honest now, if not here in public at least with yourself.

 

[TWA Dude]

Be honest now, if not here in public at least with yourself.

Your darn-tootened my posts would be the same! I've argued on this board many times about how wrong it was for "Middle-Eastern" looking people to be booted off planes during the weeks post 9/11. That Secret Service guy who got p.o.'ed and got booted off -- the whole thing started just because he was reading a book about the Middle East. Fear and paranoia ruled instead of logic and prudence. I'm a card-carrying member of the ACLU so you can imagine that I don't take sides when it comes to civil liberties.

To be honest I think Arafat should be shot on sight but if he were on my airplane then I'd do my job like any other time.

 

[frenchy]

As far as I am concern if it was Arafat ,I would shake his hand, and give him the best seat in the house.

 

[desert pilot]

FRENCHY-yr mate ARAFAT has a record of hijacking and shooting civilian planes ships buses etc.,thru many years that make BIN LADEN look like mother theresa,remember when his men hijacked a cruise ship and threw overboard an elderly AMERICAN in a wheel chair,MR CLINGHOFFER WILL BE REMEMBERED and people who shake the the murderers hand will probably one day face the truth!

 

[frenchy]

My dear friend I was in the middle east for 3 1/2 years in the army , and who today is a criminal tommorow may be your friend.
Sometimes you have to look a little farther to see the thruth.
If you look at the history of the middle east massacres have been commited by both sides but we only talk about one.
Stop watching CNN and take every word for gold!!!.
I met Arafat and Sharon in 76 and both have a lot of blood on their hands, stuff that most civilians don't realize.
I am not scare of facing the thruth I have been there , have you??

 

[desert pilot]

FRENCHY-yr mate ARAFAT is responsible more than anyone for aviation security,or should I say insecurity.Any war gets ugly and if you are looking for massacres of civilians-to name a few-HIROSHIMA,NAGASAKI,DREZDEN,AUSHWITZ,any country that the BRITISH ruled etc.But if today the IRISH will bomb a few BRITISH AIRWAYS and a few of those london buses I wouldnt shake their hands and trying to justify such action would not be endorsed by too many pilots or bus drivers worldwide! I always get worried when someone calls me -friend,and yes i have been there,a wee bit more than you!

 

[BigFlyr]

Airline pilots should not be concerned with who is on the airplane. Passengers are cattle and airplanes are cattle-cars. Security and screening starts and ends within the airport boundries. Unfortunatley, we "pilots" are going to have to be security agents also if the ground personnel can't get their act together and stop potentially dangerous passengers from boarding airplanes.

 

[frenchy]

Desert pilot

The US is a free country , you do not have to embrace my beliefs, but vice-versa, what I know and have seen will not be discussed on this message board for many obvious reasons.

 

[chawbein]

Frogs.

 

[surplus1]

To be honest I think Arafat should be shot on sight but if he were on my airplane then I'd do my job like any other time.

And how do you feel about Ariel Sharon?

 

[TIMP]

After reading all these posts I can't help but believe there is a great misunderstanding about the authority of a PIC.

Contrary to what many think, a PIC working for an employer DOES NOT, I repeat, DOES NOT, have the authority to arbitrarily make any final decision concerning the aircraft he/she is flying. The PIC's authority only goes as far as the SAFETY of the aircraft and passengers, and his decision MUST be able to "hold water." And, counter to what "Flyinbrian" believes, the PIC certainly is accountable to a higher authority. If you don't believe this then you are definitely new to aviation.

An employer hires a PIC to make safe and sound decisions which will benifit the success of the company. If a PIC gets a "brain cramp" and decides to kick off all passengers because they are wearing blue shoes, he will surely be pulled onto the carpet for such an irrational decision.

Besides being accountable to your boss, you are also accountable to your FO and all the passengers on board. If I'm riding in the back as a pax, you can be darn sure I'm holding that PIC accountable for getting me safely to my destination. And if he delays the flight because of some "bull#@%" personal issue I'll will make sure he gets a "reality check."

If you go through your aviation career thinking you are GOD on your aircraft, you will certainly have a bumpy ride.

Timp

 

[surplus1]

God never made captain, but He's always the co-pilot.

 

[desert pilot]

TIMP, thanx for adding some logic and knowledge to this topic,I was lucky years ago to change a strange decision a major airline made to kick off certain passengers...yeh the dirty MEDIA...

 

[s.o.sJTB]

watching alon pinkas doing an interview on tv right now, what an arrogant schmuck!

 

[asacap]

This captain made a poor decision and a spectacle of himself. He greatly exceeded his authority and made his decision based on Pinkas's nationality and religion. This is wrong and discraceful anyway you slice it. I agree that the PIC has the right to refuse service if there is a legitamate safety concern. Like any other mistake a Captain makes, he must be accountable. The muslim secret service agent who was denied boarding on the AA flight had improper paper work and a fire arm. These are two completely different set of circumstances. If the decision was based on his Arab decent, I would say that was wrong also, but I don't believe this was the case.
Being an airline pilot is a tremendous responsability. I love my job and feel honored to have this priviledge. I hate to second guess a fellow Captain but I can see absolutely no grounds or circumstance that would justify his decision. I don't think he should lose his job over this but there should be some form of discipline.
About that comment I read earlier regarding foreigners and their rights, unless you are native american, you are a decendent of foreigners.

 

[asacap]

Hey Dep676 & Acestick,
If the Captain refused to fly Hispanics, African Americans, or Catholics, would you still support him? The captain had no logical reasoning when he made this decision. It is much more than just hurting the feelings of a few foreigners. This is predjudice and bigitry. I don't beieve the FAR's include this in the PIC authority.

 

[surplus1]

Frogs.

Careful, you're getting personal.

Another "Frog".

 

[chawbein]

OOOOH, What the h*ll...

The pilot obviously felt that carrying a high ranking Israeli official on his airplane posed an unnecessary risk to the airplane. Think about it, how hard is it to blow up an airplane????? Not very! As far as if Arafat was on an airplane, you wouldn't have to worry about it because the Israeli government doesn't blow up airplanes filled with innocent people. I agree that the risk was negligible and I probably wouldn't have made the same decision.

P.S. I have no idea about anyone's nationality, but when I saw frenchy's name, I thought "frogs". I could care less about your country of origin.

P.P.S. I happen to have several French Army rifles, they are in excellent shape, never been fired and only dropped once.

 

[s.o.sJTB]

'you wouldn't have to worry about it because the Israeli government doesn't blow up airplanes filled with innocent people. '

originaly posted by chawbein



Not true Isreali fighter jets shot down a libyan arab airlines 727 that strayed into isreali airspace in the 70's, the aircraft was identified as a civilian craft but was shot down in retalition for libyan support of terrorist events in the period. targeting and killing civillians is a terrorist act, wether your a lone suicide bomber or in the name of a state military.

Also does anyone remember the isreali attack on the U.S. military ship the USS Liberty during the 1967 war killing several american sailors? Isreal is not an innocent little victim!

 

[enigma]

Some of ya'll are quite quick to condem the Captain. I need more information before I'm willing to commit.

First, was the Captain scared of the Israeli, or of the possibility that some terrorist might blow up his 757 in order to assassinate the Israeli?

Did the Captain have some knowledge of a terrorist threat against either the Israeli or the airline?

Had the Captain witnessed some suspicious activity in the terminal previous to the flight?

Had there been any odd occurences at the screening checkpoint prior to the flight?

Obviously, we can use our 20/20 hindsite to observe just how "stupid" this Captain was, I hope that some of you are never in the position to be second guessed. I don't think you would take it very well.

8N