Is this profession in peril?

[tomgoodman]

Better odds, smaller prize

We should probably keep in mind that career prospects weren't so hot in the past either. Pay and benefits at majors were fine, if you could get and keep a job there. Regionals hardly existed, so military service was needed to be competitive for an interview, and there were thousands of ex-military applicants. If you got hired, your airline might have been one of the many which no longer exist.

Choosing an airline career has always been a gamble; there used to be larger jackpots but fewer winners.

 

[CitationUltra]

I believe the last time I saw doctor's strike was about five years ago in Pennsylvania. Could be wrong on the state. They went on strike to protest outrageously high malpractice insurance. Cannot remember the last time my pilot group went on strike. Thats right, we never have. We continue to give and give! I just googled doctors strke america. Not only have doctors struck, they have picketed as well. You were saying?

And who are they picketing against? Their clients or patients? The "system"? I must say, I have never witnessed a picket line made up of lawyers or doctors.

There is a major difference, in any case. Doctors and lawyers are essentially self-employed professionals. Pilots, on the other hand, are employees. IN that regard, they are not much different than any other employee. Employers, i.e., airline managements, have exploited that by pitching labor groups within the companies against each other, and at that they have been quite successful.

 

[CitationUltra]

We should probably keep in mind that career prospects weren't so hot in the past either. Pay and benefits at majors were fine, if you could get and keep a job there. Regionals hardly existed, so military service was needed to be competitive for an interview, and there were thousands of ex-military applicants. If you got hired, your airline might have been one of the many which no longer exist.

Choosing an airline career has always been a gamble; there used to be larger jackpots but fewer winners.

Right on all points. The real winners were those whose number in the seniority lottery enabled them to remain employed and never furloughed.

 

[waveflyer]

it's not in peril... how dramatic- i won't even read this thread--

there is an infrastructure alive in this global economy that depends on aviation-= The problem is when will we as pilots choose not to sell each other out- get unified and do something about the decrease in wages?

Like an alcoholic=- when will we reach bottom enough to get off our arse and stand up for ourselves...

Traffic is scheduled to massively increase, VLJ's are comin-- the jobs will be there-
The question is- like at the regionals- will we make these jobs good jobs or bad jobs? To me - it centers on how well senior people at majors look out for and provide leadership for junior guys... Screwing them is what has got us in this mess. When one pilot struggles and is on survival mode-= that affects all of us b/c of what they are now willing to do to stay flying... looking out for the junior and disenfranchised sends so many messages that gain us leverage it's not even funny...

When will we hit bottom? You tell me...

 

[Flopgut]

No, you have an apathetic, uninformed membership. That's 99% of your problem.

I've been in other unions. Members aren't 99% of our problem. Maybe 10%....Leadership is 90% of the problem.

 

[800Dog]

And who are they picketing against? Their clients or patients? The "system"? I must say, I have never witnessed a picket line made up of lawyers or doctors.

There is a major difference, in any case. Doctors and lawyers are essentially self-employed professionals. Pilots, on the other hand, are employees. IN that regard, they are not much different than any other employee. Employers, i.e., airline managements, have exploited that by pitching labor groups within the companies against each other, and at that they have been quite successful.

No argument here. Just pointing out the guy who seemed to think doctors never picket or strike was wrong.

 

[PCL_128]

I've been in other unions. Members aren't 99% of our problem. Maybe 10%....Leadership is 90% of the problem.

It must be nice to just stick your head in the sand and pretend that others are responsible for all of your problems. But sadly, it doesn't jive with reality. If the membership wants to know what's wrong with their union, then they need to pull their heads out of the sand and look in a mirror.

 

[CitationUltra]

I've been in other unions. Members aren't 99% of our problem. Maybe 10%....Leadership is 90% of the problem.

You're probably right, but we've had nearly thirty years to effect a change in leadership and it's never happened.

Why is that?

Is it because those truly qualified and capable do not want the job? Or is it because the wrong people seek these jobs? People who want the job for the wrong reasons? (I've personally seen this phenomenon over and over again.)

 

[Flopgut]

Generational? Cultural? I'm not sure. ALPA used to be better. For instance, Merger policy functioned once upon a time! Then UAL showed everybody they could ignore it and screwed their fellow members.

Our biggest crisis: The guys who talk like Rez and and PCL are the ones who end up doing the most damage! We have to deal with that. They start out with the fundamentalist ALPA message, get elected/promoted, and then they do the worst. The thesis that it's the members who suck and ALPA leadership is without fault/responsibility is completely wrong.

 

[Lear70]

It's a shared responsibility.

I'll tell you what: show me a union that is OVERSTAFFED with volunteers, that has to TURN PILOTS AWAY who want to be on committees, can pick and choose from the best, brightest, and most-suitable for those jobs, and also who has a better than 90% turnout of "available" pilots (those who aren't at work) for picketing events, MEC quarterly meetings (the important ones), and has a more than 90% vote turnout for EVERY vote, and I'll shut up about membership involvement.

If you don't have that, then it's the MEMBERSHIP that has a problem.

Leadership is required to inform the pilots of "what" is needed, "when" it's needed, and "why" it's needed.

Membership then bears the responsibility to get off their butts and get their tails to whatever event was important for them to attend.

Without that kind of solidarity, you could have the best Leadership in the world and you won't accomplish jack crap.

When pilots realize this, maybe we'll gain some ground again. Personally, I don't think it'll happen. The majority simply can't be "bothered", and want everyone else to do it for them so they can just "come to work and go home". Want to be a blue collar worker? That's the attitude to have... Want things to change? Get off your A S S and work for it.

/rant

p.s. History has shown us that the regional guys aren't going anywhere. Mesaba and Eagle are excellent examples; I know guys who have been there 12-14 YEARS and stick around, holding out for that flow-through or eventual Major interview.

Don't count on attrition to solve your problem. Guys are sticking around, even with crap wages.

 

[PCL_128]

There you have it guys! A guy that's far from being an ALPA cheerleader telling you that membership apathy is at the heart of the problem.
Great post, Lear!!!

 

[waveflyer]

what has the leadership done to inspire participation pcl? b/c i can think of a lot of things that union leadership has done that has inspired the apathy. What you and Rez do constantly is one of them- and management couldn't love you more for it-- rail on those you supposedly lead.

None of you has thought to adopt any of the organizational behavior techniques taught in any basic business degree... And that is pretty dumb. Do us all a favor and don't get involved w/ air tran's politics holding that attitude.

It is an unarguable point that GOOD LEADERSHIP CAN SOLVE APATHY- why you stick to your guns on this and continue to do something that actively contributes to apathy- i have no clue- but STOP!

This goes for everyone- Stop crying and blaming and DO SOMETHING. This career will be what we make it. If you believe it's in the toilet and hang your head- then it will only slide farther... Get positive, get to work- and make it what it should be- none of the problems we face- INCLUDING APATHY- are unsolvable.

 

[PCL_128]

what has the leadership done to inspire participation pcl?

Pilots shouldn't need to be "inspired" to be involved in their own careers. I'm not exactly sure what you think Prater can do to get you off your ass. If what has happened to labor and this profession over the past seven years hasn't "inspired" you to get involved, then nothing will.

and management couldn't love you more for it

You might want to ask the former CP and the rest of the Pinnacle management team about that. I can assure you that their feelings for me are far from "loving." Loathing would be more accurate.

This goes for everyone- Stop crying and blaming and DO SOMETHING

The ironic thing here is that the only people in this thread that have actually done what you suggest are Lear, Rez, Occam and me. The rest of you simply rest on your laurels and complain about the leadership. If you have a problem with the leadership, then get off your ass and become the leadership. We already have.

 

[Flopgut]

It's a shared responsibility.

I'll tell you what: show me a union that is OVERSTAFFED with volunteers, that has to TURN PILOTS AWAY who want to be on committees, can pick and choose from the best, brightest, and most-suitable for those jobs, and also who has a better than 90% turnout of "available" pilots (those who aren't at work) for picketing events, MEC quarterly meetings (the important ones), and has a more than 90% vote turnout for EVERY vote, and I'll shut up about membership involvement.

I think we can look no further than ALPA's past. UALALPA functions used to be standing room only; They were operating at avery high level. What happened? UALALPA grew to believe they were ALPA. And National let them do whatever they wanted to the detriment of the union.

That sort of behavior has become the norm.

 

[Flopgut]

Biggest problem at this moment: The guys running things have a fundamental difference of vision. Prater believes there are two different futures right now. Prater wants to trade on every hot issue of the day to hoard for his generation. He simultaneously believes the next generation of pilots are a near lost cause and too expensive to champion. TD at CAL was the same sort and we just got rid of him, thankfully.

 

[ExpWayVis31]

After all the mergers, the regional airlines will be the place to be due to the furloughs and such. No more flow backs either. I feel pretty confident, AND I don't have to worry about being some lame gear jerker, either.

I'll leave that to all you guys. LOL

Pocono,
I disagree, if industry consolidation does happen, then the unions at the remaining airlines will have more power. One area where they will flex there power is with scope clauses, which will favor the mainline pilot over over the commuter pilot.

 

[Flopgut]

Without that kind of solidarity, you could have the best Leadership in the world and you won't accomplish jack crap.

I think you are confused. Solidarity [unity] is what gets things done! I'll take unity over gross participation any day...and they are separate things.

 

[pilotyip]

Stop Whinning!!!

Nothing but whinning, this is still a great career

 

[Andy]

I believe the last time I saw doctor's strike was about five years ago in Pennsylvania. Could be wrong on the state. They went on strike to protest outrageously high malpractice insurance. Cannot remember the last time my pilot group went on strike. Thats right, we never have. We continue to give and give! I just googled doctors strke america. Not only have doctors struck, they have picketed as well. You were saying?

You're correct; google's a wonderful thing. I've opened mouth and inserted foot.

I don't know which pilot group you're with, but it seems like UALALPA is setting up a picket line somewhere every month or so. We had one on 1 Feb in Sacramento; 30 pilots showed. On the same day, we had one in Oakland; 4 pilots showed. We had one 23 Jan in Detroit; 7 UAL, 2 NWA, and 1 Spirit pilot showed (it was a UAL picket). We had one 18 Jan in Schaumberg, IL outside of Motorola; 16 pilots showed. We had one 20 Dec at DCA; 5 UAL, 1 DAL, and 1 ALPA National showed (it was a UAL picket).
How effective is picketing as a tool when you do it so often that it's not even noticed by the media?

In the above pickets, the stated objective was to "bring to light the corporate greed that permeates upper management of our airline." Great. When you use picketing so often with very few turning out, how effective is it? IMO, it's the wrong tool and it ends up being counterproductive.
Tilton's response to pilot pickets last summer was to call them a vocal minority. That's the problem with overusing picketing as a tool.

 

[PCL_128]

Nothing but whinning, this is still a great career

You edited your post for "speiling," but still couldn't get "whinning" spelled correctly? If you're going to call us whiners, then at least spell it properly. Or better yet, get back to work. Does USA Jet know that one of their overpaid managers spends a lot of his time at work on an internet message board? Don't you have a memo to distribute or something?

 

[Andy]

Biggest problem at this moment: The guys running things have a fundamental difference of vision. Prater believes there are two different futures right now. Prater wants to trade on every hot issue of the day to hoard for his generation. He simultaneously believes the next generation of pilots are a near lost cause and too expensive to champion. TD at CAL was the same sort and we just got rid of him, thankfully.

Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. The mechanisms in place for a disenchanted membership are limited. Look at how union leaders are elected. It's Tammany Hall politics at it's best.

Did the membership vote for/against prater and woerth? No; that was done by our MEC representatives. Did any MEC reps ask their membership who they wanted? Not that I know of.

The advantage of having an inhouse union is that the membership can vote for their Chair. Unless ALPA's bylaws change, the rank and file have no vote for ALPA BOD members.

 

[Flopgut]

Let's form a guild.

 

[Andy]

Let's form a guild.

Interesting concept.
I'd personally like to see alpa's bylaws rewritten to make it less of a kleptocracy (which is what alpa has evolved into) and more of a direct democracy.

 

[CitationUltra]

Interesting concept.
I'd personally like to see alpa's bylaws rewritten to make it less of a kleptocracy (which is what alpa has evolved into) and more of a direct democracy.

Also, ALPA has not and can not represent "regional" airline pilots, due to obvious conflicts of interest. Therefore, regional airline pilots perhaps should consider a national organization the way things stand now. Actually, if gratuitous distinctions, such as "regional airline pilot" were eliminated, then one national pilot professional organization might work.

 

[Andy]

Also, ALPA has not and can not represent "regional" airline pilots, due to obvious conflicts of interest. Therefore, regional airline pilots perhaps should consider a national organization the way things stand now. Actually, if gratuitous distinctions, such as "regional airline pilot" were eliminated, then one national pilot professional organization might work.

One union representing two pilot groups with competing interests is the problem here. In a word, scope.
alpa does not do Pinnacle pilots justice when it pushes for tighter scope restrictions for Northwest. Conversely, alpa does not do Northwest pilots justice when it pushes for looser scope restrictions at Pinnacle. The two groups' interests are mutually exclusive.

 

[waveflyer]

PCL - why don't you go award yourself an oscar or something. You don't want to talk about leadership b/c that requires you to look in the mirror. Ironically that's the same thing that you are requiring of us. I don't disagree w/ you or rez about apathy and it's affect- I just go a step further and ask why it's there. And that points back to you. How about instead of blaming and railing on those of us you ASSUME have done nothing- you look forward, lead and do something organizationally about the apathy? Don't you think that would be more productive?

It's funny- i know you're in no position to lead- just as i'm not- all i'm asking is that you get positive- and stop the railing- Could you do that? DO you think you could just give reasoned arguments about what needs to be done w/o the apathy-inspiring critiques? A leader is going to inspire one way or the other...
I just don't live in a fantasy world where pilots aren't getting killed by tough lines for less money, who have kids and obligations and an uncertain future- to be railed on by leadership after dealing w/ all that is ONLY disheartening. I'm being a LEADER right now when i ask you to STOP doing that.

How about every time you want to rail on us- just deliver up a March 12- wall street reminder instead. Come up w/ creative ideas to allow them to show support if they are flying or have obligations in their personal life- Unless i'm mistaken- all pilots will be affected by CAL's contract- and it's a free country and we all could demonstrate w/ them. Wouldn't that also support the idea of a national union.

 

[Mamma]

I agree with your basic analysis--the statistics indicate a pilot shortage. However, the problem with the theory is that the new-hire pilots are signing on for very low salaries that don't improve much over time. Supply shortages would only raise pilot salary standards if pilots withheld services unless paid at a rate congruent with the job as a "profession" instead of as laborers.

Pilots since the mid-1980s have shown no tendency to withhold services, in fact the opposite. As long as the regional airlines can hire new 250-hour pilots at $18K a year, this won't change. No bona fide "profession" has an entry-level this low on the economic scale.

Alaska Management has already solved the shortage problem. They are hiring FOs right out of Horizon with zero PIC. Just 2000 hours total. And to management's delight, these guys are stuck and can go nowhere.

 

[hoover]

For the foreseeable future, as long as there are airplanes, there will be a need for pilots. Someday UAV's may change that...

I'm not sure profession is the right word to use. It seems more a vocation than a profession.

 

[Mamma]

deleted. already hashed over.

 

[PCL_128]

Interesting concept.

Creating a guild at this point would require cooperation from the government. That's impossible unless you and other pilots contribute to the PAC, which you refuse to do since you're pissed off about a single issue.

I'd personally like to see alpa's bylaws rewritten to make it less of a kleptocracy (which is what alpa has evolved into) and more of a direct democracy.

Direct democracies are clumsy and ineffective. And ALPA is nothing resembling a kleptocracy, if you even know what that means.