Is this Job a Joke?

[justApilot]

I can't speak of what the sop's are at the frax or some of these companies that don't allow the fo's to fly with pax, but to me this makes absolutely no sense. When I flew bizjets, I would alternate legs with my fo's no matter what. It is the job of the captain to help mold the fo into a future confident, competent and qualified captain.

 

[boeingav8r]

that's messed up

Apparently, lots of corporations are like that. My father in law flies for JB Hunt and he's current and qualified in the Citation and has tons of hours. The captain still only gives him the empty legs no matter what. They never really have empty legs due to the fact that they always stay and wait for the passengers, so there are rarely any empty legs. He's only had 5-6 legs over that past year or so.

The airlines seem alot different than corporate. In an earlier post, Ty Webb mentioned that new fo's only fly empty legs for the first 100 hours. That's not good for the fo. In the airlines, right after you finish training, you start IOE in which you fly the aircraft with a check airman pretty much every leg until you're signed off. Sure you might fly a few legs as non flying pilot so the check airman can evaluate your non flying duties, but you fly for the most part. After that, the fo's swap out every other leg w/ the captain.

I'm glad to hear there are good business jet captains out there who will let the fo's get their legs in. JustAPilot is right, it's the captain's job to help mold the fo into a great captain. That's the only way they'll learn.

 

[Ty Webb]

Actually, in a bizjet, only having the FO fly empty legs for the first 100 hours or so makes perfect sense, if he is new to jet operations and the training was done (is being done!) in the airplane.

At many operators, you get three bounces, and you're in the right seat on "live" legs. Now, unless the guys has some decent flight time, I am not going to start trading live legs right away, if he hasn;t been to training on the airplane, no way.

Remember, this is not an airline operation, this pilot did not just come back from 2 weeks of system training and 30-50 hours of sim time- he is learning to fly a jet for the first time, and there are VIP's in the back. This is NOT the time or the place for him to start learning the basics.

The better corporate ops will send both pilots to school on the airplane (FSI or Simuflite), but many still don't. When I was looking for a corporate job, that was one of the first questions I would ask, because if they weren't spending the money on decent training, they weren;t spending it anywhere else, either.

 

[boeingav8r]

Remember, this is not an airline operation, this pilot did not just come back from 2 weeks of system training and 30-50 hours of sim time-he is learning to fly a jet for the first time, and there are VIP's in the back. This is NOT the time or the place for him to start learning the basics.
[/B]

Yeah, I see what you're saying. I guess if you have VIP's in the back, they expect a smooth ride. That makes sense.

When I upgraded to fo on the 727, we did our bounces then started IOE on live legs. That was the first time I've ever flown a jet...a large aircraft for that matter. At that point, I "knew" the aircraft inside and out (regarding systems) because I was a flight engineer, but I had to learn how to fly a jet, pretty much starting out on the ground floor. We did this on live legs. If I were a captain, I don't know how comfortable I would feel if I had a new fo who has never been able to fly the aircraft (not counting the bounces). What would happen if I became incapacitated and there were VIP's on board. Could my fo get the aircraft down safely, at a suitable airport, in IMC at night?

I guess what I'm saying is, is that if I were a young, new business jet pilot at a corporation X and didn't get any legs except for a few empty ones, I would feel a little worthless. Moreover, I would be somewhat bitter if I had to pay for training and still not get a chance to fly every other leg....

 

[Ty Webb]

VIP's not only expect a smooth ride, they select an aircraft (and crew) based upon it meeting their needs and expectations. They know when a new pilot has been brought on board (hell, they just met him) and they expect that he will be given some "seasoning" before he is flying them himself.

Most corporate pilots are much more focused on smooth flying, are reluctant to use speedbrakes, slow significantly below maximum flap and gear speeds (to cut down on noise and pitch changes) and brake more gingerly . . . at least in my experience. Then you have airline guys (more performance/schedule oriented)then the military guys (deliver it to the runway and catch the invisible third wire)?

Juuuuussstttt Kidddinngggg, folks, for the most part.

 

[boeingav8r]

Most corporate pilots are much more focused on smooth flying, are reluctant to use speedbrakes, slow significantly below maximum flap and gear speeds (to cut down on noise and pitch changes) and brake more gingerly . . . at least in my experience. Then you have airline guys (more performance/schedule oriented)then the military guys (deliver it to the runway and catch the invisible third wire)?

Juuuuussstttt Kidddinngggg, folks, for the most part.

I've always taken pride in flying as smoothly as I possibly can. Sure there are always those pilots who use the flaps to slow the aircraft, put out the gear when they're going too fast (again, to slow the aircraft) LOL

But you know what they say...."If you don't get the clacker on the descent during your last leg, you don't want to get home bad enough"

 

[Timebuilder]

Hey! That sounds like my company!

Without the &*#$@ fifty cent raise.....

 

[justApilot]

I guess I just don't get it. When I flew bizjets we hired many guys with 2000 hours +-,no turbine time, sent them to FSI/Simuflite, and then got them out on the line flying every other leg. If they needed more stick time I was glad to let them fly every leg if they wanted. The only way to learn is to fly and if you were not flying you were not learning. You are only as strong as your weakest link, and you don't want a weak right seater. God forbide any guys out there that are not splitting stick time konk out during flight and now the FO can't save the day because he forgot how to fly. You know what I mean?

 

[Rick1128]

Who fly what leg no matter what part of the industry you work in is strictly SCD. Subject Captain's Descreasion. I have seen corporate operations closed down because the president was scared of flying with a particular pilot. And I have had regular charter customers ask me to fly all the legs he was on. When these pilot pay your salary, you pay attention.

Yes, copilots need experience and we as captains need to provide it. But we also need to exercise judgement and care on what legs we have our copilots fly. It has been my experience that it doesn't really matter too much if the training was inhouse or FSI/Simuflite. It really depends more on the pilot's ability and comprehension, than where they were trained.

And just because an operator doesn't send pilots to FSI/Simuflite, doesn't make them a poor operator. When tyou have 20 plus pilots and you are in a segment of the industry that measures costs in pennies. You count them very carefully. Or your aircraft are very unique and don't come close to the FSI/Simuflite standard. Maybe they are not the answer. There are many reasons not to go that route.

 

[justApilot]

Maybe it is the calibre of pilot you are hiring or maybe it is the lack of confidence the captain has in himself and the guys he flies with.