Is this Job a Joke?

[justApilot]

Out of curiosity.....For the Captains out there....Do you have your FO's do the flight and fuel planning? Or are they just there to fill the coffee pot and dump the crapper? Do you give them the challenge of making all the decisions on any particuliar trip? Do you preflight the outside while they preflight the inside on a rainy day? Do you help put covers on at the end of the day when it is 20 degrees and the wind is howling? Or are you sitting on your rear inside the FBO chatting it up with the girls? Do you buy the coffee in the morning and the beer at the end of the day?

 

[Ty Webb]

It has been my experience that it doesn't really matter too much if the training was inhouse or FSI/Simuflite. It really depends more on the pilot's ability and comprehension, than where they were trained.

And just because an operator doesn't send pilots to FSI/Simuflite, doesn't make them a poor operator. When tyou have 20 plus pilots and you are in a segment of the industry that measures costs in pennies.

Sorry, I'm not buying that, and neither are most of the other guys here. Initial and Recurrent training costs are a part of doing business. If a company can;t afford the training, they can't afford to be operating a corporate flight department, period.

I have worked at a company that had your attitude, and others that didn't, and you know what? The ones that didn;t skimp on training also paid more and provided better QOL for me and my family.

Fligth departments are like families, some are dysfuntional . . and some could qualify for a segment on Jerry Springer. Some pilots are like the abused spouse . . "Well, he treats you so poorly, why do you keep going back there?" . . . . "Well, I love him, Jerry".

 

[LJDRVR]

Speaking only for the 135 side of things, there is NOTHING that makes me angrier than a Captain who refuses to let the FO fly because:

"He/she is not smooth yet."
"He/she needs to perfect their PNF skills."
"They havn't earned it yet."
"I didn't get any legs until I had 500 hours in the AC."

ETC... ad nauseum

You Captains who think this way usually lack self-confidence. When I was an FO, nothing made me more frustrated than not getting to fly. The excuses I outlined above are real, let's examine them individualy.

"He/she is not smooth yet."

-And most certainly won't be with you bogarting the controls. Let them try! The first time I fly with a new FO I ask them: "getting any legs?" The answer is invariably not many. I let them fly right away, with the warning that they really do need to be as smooth as they can. Within a couple of legs the improvement is obvious and we continue to swap legs.

"He/she needs to perfect their PNF skills."

-Give me a break. What better way for your new FO to learn how to perform as a good sparky, than by you demonstrating how it's done while they fly? Of course most of the Captains that wield this excuse are DREADFUL copilots. You know the type.

"they havn't earned it yet."

-Who made you God? They earned the right the minute they passed their checkride and are released to the line. Who made you a check airman? Nobody!

"I didn't get any legs till I had 500 hours in the AC."

-And since you are God's gift to aviation, then certainly our new hires should be subjected to the same level of frustration. Did you enjoy not flying or did it upset you? Remember how that felt?

ANY Captain worth the stripes they wear should have enough confidence in their abilities to let any new-hire fly the jet down to minimums and land. If you wouldn't allow this, you should be asking yourself what part of your skillset do you need to work on to be able to conduct such an operation? It's NOT the FO's fault that you are a weak Captain.

Of course my diatribe assumes the FO was trained at Simuflite of FSI. I don't want to start a flame war here, but operators with high performance jets really have no excuse not to use the sims for training. I know there are reasons (excuses) but none of those hold water when your in-house trained crew is executing a nightime single engine non-precision approach in your multi-million dollar asset with paying customers in back. In-house training is penny-wise/pound foolish.

In closing, think about it this way. What frightens you Captains more?..having to explain to your boss why the customer didn't like the landing you new FO just thumped on? Or, cultivating a cockpit atmospher of mistrust, inability, frustration and the decreased amount of communication that's gonna exist because of it? I can tell you which one scares me more.

PS in over three years as a Learjet Captain allowing the FO's to fly, I have never ONCE had anyone complain about the FO's flying.

Warm Regards!

 

[boeingav8r]

Who fly what leg no matter what part of the industry you work in is strictly SCD. Subject Captain's Descreasion. I have seen corporate operations closed down because the president was scared of flying with a particular pilot. And I have had regular charter customers ask me to fly all the legs he was on. When these pilot pay your salary, you pay attention.

Now that's pretty messed up. Sure, technically speaking, you're correct. It is for the most part SCD (subject captain's discresion), but when one makes it to the Major Airlines level of flying, you will see that the legs are distributed equally between the captain and the f.o. pretty much all of the time. Maybe the captain will occasionally fly one more leg than the f.o. due to a circumstance like going into a "special airport" or something like that, but it's equal for the most part.
In response to you "seeing a corporate operation close down", I promise you, a major airline will never "shut down" because one first class passenger or the president was scared to let a particular pilot fly them around. For the most part, "Joe Passenger" or the VIP does not know or understand what goes on in the cockpit and does not have the knowledge to conclude that a particular pilot is unsafe. So I guess you Bizjet pilots must be slamming them down on the runway or doing negative-G pushover's because that's about the only way a non-pilot VIP is going to tell that he dosen't want to be flown around by a particular pilot.

I don't know too much about corporate operations, but when the airlines hire a pilot, they hire a captain. The f.o. is essentially a captain in training. It is, in a way, on-the-job-training for the f.o. to eventually become PIC. Like JustAPilot said, it's essentially the captains job to alternate every other leg and let the f.o. fly the aircraft equally. Also, give the f.o. some responsibility. Ask him scenereos. Ask him what altitude we should request for a final given the winds and our weight. Ask him how much fuel to request. I'm getting the feeling here that alot of the bizjet captains (except the few on this thread who have indicated that they alternate legs with fo's) are one-man operations. These aircraft are not single pilot military fighter jets. You have a crew and you must use your f.o. for duties other than draining the crapper, stocking the bar, kicking the tires, and listening to ATIS.

I understand that corporate flying is different from airline flying..mainly due to the fact that you fly VIP's around who think their $hit don't stink. What the VIP's don't know can't hurt 'em. Let the f.o. fly his legs and help make decisions. Sure, it must be flattering to have a VIP request you, the captain, to fly all the legs and I'm sure that strokes your ego pretty good, but you're doing your f.o. a disservice by not letting him fly every other leg. You can always blame an occasional hard landing on turbulence..LOL

 

[DawgPilot]

I can only speak from my experience as an SIC in our 135 department, but I appreciate that most of our PIC's come from the SIC ranks and understand how important it is to get everyone up to speed and let the SIC fly alternating legs.
A couple of our pilots are single pilot qualified (C-441) but we fly two pilots when able (ops specs) and often times those are the hardest flights - trying to integrate a crew environment with a Single Pilot PIC mentality.
I look forward to moving on to larger/more complex equipment and hope that I meet Captains that do enjoy grooming new f/o's, remember, most f/o's will work harder for a captain they enjoy flying with and they feel treats them with respect. For the most part we have gone through the same training as you have, just a couple of years later.

 

[wafu39]

RICK1128,
Ever heard of CLR or CRM?
DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rick1128]

Looks like several people have missed the point. On leg swapping it is always SCD. Mainly because he is the first one to get called in front of the chief pilot when things go to heck. At no time have I advocated that the f/o not be given legs. Just that the captain exercise care and JUDGEMENT in what legs the f/o flys, based on the f/o's ability and experience. You are doing a bigger disservice to the f/o when you give him experiences he is not ready for.

And wafu, I am very aware of CRM. I have yet to see in any book on CRM anywhere that states that who does what is not subject to the Captain's Descreation. Boeing, corporate operations are considerably different from airline operations. Yeah, some of these people do think it doesn't stink. But most are just very hard working business people who are NOT in the airplane business. Generally do not know anything about airplanes except how to get on and off them. But they sign the checks and know what they like and don't like. And if they don't like you or are uncomfortable with you, YOU ARE HISTORY!

Ty, based on your comments, are the American Airlines Pilots and the United pilots no good because they don't go through FSI for their training? Personally I don't believe that. Many companies have good inhouse training. Just because someone was trained by FSI or Simuflite, doesn't necessarilly make them better than someone trained in house. It depends on the quality of the training and the individual. In the past, I have had FSI grads who were very good and some who made each landing an adventure. And the same was true for the non-FSI pilots. Ty, it sounds like you work for a corporate operator. In the air carrier world, we are required by regulation to have our own training program. We have had problems with FSI and Simuflite in getting them to train to our program, and we aren't the only operator having that problem. Many of us have aircraft that are way outside the FSI/Simuflite average aircraft. So we have to re-train these pilots to our aircraft. I personally have been in Lear 20 recurrents where there everything from an early 23 to a 29. And everything in between. Those who are familar with Lear 20's understand what a spread that is. It makes it difficult to get everything you want and need.

LRDRVR, what you say does sound like excuses. But they could have some basis in fact. If on approach the wings are wagging so much that you think the aircraft is sending semephore signals, or uses all of the 12,000 foot runway for landing, etc. Maybe we need to do a little work here. Being an F/O is not easy. Personnally, I judge each f/o as an individual and split legs based on my judgement of their ability and the leg. An example would be Aspen. Depending on the weather, I have had f/o's I would give that leg to. And then others I would not. Why? Because Aspen requires a certain level of experience. I don't expect my f/o's to land as smooth as I do. Even I do thump one on once in awhile. Or fly as smooth as I do. But I have been doing it awhile. But I do expect them not to scare the other crew members or the passengers. Or surprise me. I do expect them to have reasonable knowledge of the aircraft and to keep increasing that knowledge base. I expect them to keep increasing their own personal bar of expectations of themselves. I expect them to be professional. And to do their job. That is all I as a captain have the right to expect and demand.

On the other hand an f/o should expect that their captain pass on his knowledge and experience. Sometimes you have to ask.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, based on your comments, are the American Airlines Pilots and the United pilots no good because they don't go through FSI for their training?

I was using FSI or Simuflite as a minimum, not a maximum. Simulator-based training is the name of the game. Operators that are too cheap to pay for this expense are what I was referring to.

Many companies have good inhouse training. Just because someone was trained by FSI or Simuflite, doesn't necessarilly make them better than someone trained in house. It depends on the quality of the training and the individual. In the past, I have had FSI grads who were very good and some who made each landing an adventure. And the same was true for the non-FSI pilots.

If the in-house training does not involve simulators, you're kidding yourself.

it sounds like you work for a corporate operator. In the air carrier world, we are required by regulation to have our own training program. We have had problems with FSI and Simuflite in getting them to train to our program, and we aren't the only operator having that problem. Many of us have aircraft that are way outside the FSI/Simuflite average aircraft. So we have to re-train these pilots to our aircraft.

If you read my profile, you would see that I am a past 91/135 Bizjet guy, and a present airline guy. I am familiar with air crarrier training, both as a PIC and SIC. My company trains using our instructors, in FSI Boeing simulators . . .

What I was saying in my post is that in the first 100 hours, a new jet pilot who has not been to simulator-based training should probably be flying only empty legs, until he demonstrates the ability to be ahead of the airplane and smooth on the controls, and not be too much of a distraction during critical phases of flight. That may come at 50 hours, and it may come at 150, but until I am comfortable with his skills, I ma going to use my discretion . . . because when all is said and done, if the passengers are uncomfortable with the flight, it will rest on my shoulders.

Now, at my (121) airline, for the first 100 hours, the FO has limitations on what he can fly . . . .

no X-wind greater than 15 kts, viz < 3/4 mile, no clutter, braking action less than good, LLWS, or special use airports.

 

[Rick1128]

Ty,

You make my point but have missed it. It depends more on the pilot himelf than where he was trained. You have to start out with good material. Sim based training is not a cure all. You have to start with good material and have to have good training equipment and personnel. I have had both sim based and aircraft based training. And in both cases I have had some very good and some very bad. Sim based is easier in many case as you can control the enviroment and let things go a little further. But I have also been in sim that broke down at least once during each session. Had sim instructors that made Marine DI's look mild and didn't instruct, just yelled. In those cases the training was very poor. On the other hand, I have recieved training in the aircraft that was very excellent. In some cases it was because a sim didn't exist for that aircraft. In others the company made a decision to keep the training in house and provided a basis for that training.

It doesn't matter if he had sim based training or not, in my airplane the first leg he flys will be a non-rev leg. So I can see what I have to work with. From there it depends on him. And f/o limits are fairly standard. It varys from company to company.

 

[100-1/2]

TO, FSI? OR NOT TO, FSI?

THAT IS NOT THE QUESTION!

When I placed my first post, I was convinced a huge mudslinging would occur on the subject and validity of one birthing a professional career from pounding down the door of this charter company and crawling over the backs of your bretherin and (sisterin) to get such a coveted position. While I am glad to see ya'll have waved-off that beaten path and found one I expected the goofballs that alienated an entirely different thread (Wrongly-yet on the same job) over on the Corporate Board as this is obviously a Charter Position.

As a company owner, I personally invest in sim training for new hires IN ADDITION TO: a Simulator and/or Flight Checkout (no, I don't give you a current 8410 and I am not accepting Resumes) to see how current (here is the important point) YOUR TYPE RATING is! I am not going to invest in Sim School or showing your giddy face around the company unless I have some amount of assurity that you will be successful with my money, equipment or the people whom I exist for. Operators sliding under a level of professionalism by packing along a pilot certificate on board in accordance with Ops Specs or Insurance Reqs need a deeper appreciation for the cost and risk associated with their investment. Who knows how many fatalities could have been avoided to this day had an FO not been made to believe he/she had yet to reach the level of experience as the Captain and assume flying duties regardless of situation. This harvested insecurity and inept feeling attitude doesn't alert the "puffed-up Captain" when he inadvertantly descends below approach minimums. 'He is God and knows what he is doing.' The early CRM programs have since been revamped and free from hierarchical influence and stresses teamwork, cohesion, agreement and acknowledgement by coordinated distribution of duties. Nothing is accomplished without one reading the checklist and confirming the other completes the task within acceptable parameters prior to continuing to the next item. Flights, Departures, Arrivals and approaches are briefed with a game plan and committed to with an exit strategy so that all in the cockpit know their role and what to expect from their team members. The Captain is the final authority and accountable for what goes on. If he/she is not using ALL of their resources(CREW) to the maximum available, then the Captain is working too, hard, well underpaid and putting the flight at risk.

The whole concept of smoothness is trite. If you are hiring type rated Joes, they know how to handle the aircraft cognoscente of passenger comfort. If you are taking the local Multi-engine Instructor, he/she is behind before they even strap on a shoulder harness in these aircraft. At least some breadthe of enlightenment from one or more of these sim facilities is needed otherwise, you are essentially single-pilot or have to help this person to help you, even just to tune a radio. Most of these outfits I referenced earlier seem to operate on the latter and/or require this workload from their Captain(s) and it sucks to be them. When it comes to "letting the new guy fly" without spilling the passengers' grape juice on their white suede, Current Type Rating? Nuff Said, No brainer, give up the controls to keep them sharp. sHell, they might even make you look good to the boss that hasn't dealt out that raise you've been buckin' for. If they're "rusty", have them fly the Departure and/or Arrival. There is more to do here to dust them off with little to no affect to the people in back than would really be occurring anyway. If they complain, (they don't even notice. If it was bad enough, you already know about it and have a good ATC excuse ready to go.) this one works. "another idiot blew his altitude and we had little time to keep the metal apart." No argument there. If your new Joe is this 'rusty', it will be discovered during interview/pre-hire screening and/or sim school and alieviated then and not with the boss on board. Hopefully, you passed on this guy and went on to the guy that is sharp. When it comes to approach and landing, it is all about Vref anyways, right? You will have worked out their throttle control kinks in the speed reductions on the Arrival and Yoke anxiety rarely errupts out of sharp people like the one you offered the job to. And yes, you did have to negotiate to a higher wage for them that you would not have given Rusty J. Pylut and you wanted ole' Sharpie anyways, he makes your life easier. In any other case as stated above, you are either making an investment in someone to assemble permanently into your cockpit and flight dept or you are filling a quota or checking a box for legality. Investments require input, attention and nurturing in order to grow and blossom into what you desire. I can respect Rick1128's point of view about in house training but have a deeper appreciation and respect for the methods outlined above. I would strongly caution him to reflect on what his company is desiring from him and how he is valued in his company's cockpit(s). Good Sim schools are more expensive. We have experienced break-downs and were credited for the down-time should the ONSITE MECHANIC not been able to resolve the issue within our alotted time. I have even been compensated for an extra night in the hotel to fly the next day in that sole case. These Sims and services often run 10 times the cost of owning the airframe they are intended to simulate. There is no comparison to this type of exposure short of turning Jet A into noise and even then some training is illadvisable out of the sim. Very few companies maintain their own sims and often elect to limit their use to recurrent training and outsource the initial training. These sims are no different than aircraft in that the amount of use dictates downtime and increases expenses.

So, it is up to the company to debate this concept within itself and hopefully under the advisement of the Flight Department Personnel such as Rick and Ty who by the way are both right for where they are at. However, considerring all this and other points not for this board, Ty is more right for where he is at. Many companies I have found have no clue when it comes to investing deeper than just making the payments on the airplane(s). When you tell them (Speak up) how this relates to their safety and that of their family or irreplaceable company employees, they often willingly pull out their checkbook or a purchase order. Every Corporate or Charter pilot needs to spend a year or two selling used cars as a means of income. You learn alot about people, how to capitalize on their emotion and sell. If you can convince someone to pay retail for a vehicle that has no guarantee of performance or longevity and they can not do without it sitting in their driveway, you can sell this form of insurance to Donald Tightwad, CEO of Tightwad Holdings.

lots a love to ma peoples,
100-1/2