Is this forum the reason pilots are getting paid less?

[FishandFly]

Any chance that there is a relationship between pay-scales and the maturity/morality of some pilots on this board?

I'm sure the moderators can not sreen members based on their stupidity levels, but if this is representative of where aviation is going we're screwed.

 

[Cadillac]

you misspelled screen as "sreen."

 

[kngarthur]

you misspelled screen as "sreen."

Oh that's really mature!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bafanguy]

FishandFly,


You've raised a very interesting question...and I don't have the answer. But I think you've touched on a pretty interesting sociological issue that involves how the internet has changed the world we live in; this forum, the people on it, and what they have to say represent the effect of that change.

This medium of communication provides a couple of things the world didn't have before the internet. First, it is a source of information from literally all over the world. For all the flaws you might see here, there is a limitless source of knowledge, information, and occasionally wisdom ( even on flightinfo.com ); there is great value in this. As a guy who spent 30+ years of his life at a major carrier, I've learned worlds of things about other segments of aviation that were off limits to me without this medium of commmunication. I just didn't have access to the people who knew all the stuff I didn't. Unfortunately, a lot of what I've learned does not bode well for me personally, but that's another subject.

The second aspect of this forum is what it shows about human nature and the part the internet plays in the how we interact with the world. If you think about some of the "stuff" you've seen people say here, it's pretty ghastly; the name calling, personal insults, blasts of angst and fear. People could never say these things in a situation where their identity is known in any way because they'd pay a social/professional price that would be life altering. But in this medium, the social mask we all are forced to put up in all other aspects of our lives is not required. Here, YOU GET TO SEE WHO WE REALLY ARE; no fear of reprisals for anti-social, unpopular, whacko, irrational, fear-driven feelings and opinions. And this is, perhaps, what makes this forum so interesting...unbridled human nature given free reign. Maybe you like it; maybe you don't, but it's pretty interesting stuff.

When I first stumbled across this forum, I heard people say things like, "...its' just an internet forum, what does it matter what people say ?" Well, I think it does matter because it shows you whom you're really dealing with out there in the real world if they didn't have to put up that social mask. And maybe we're all just a bit wiser for knowing this. Just maybe...

My suspicion is that people have always been people but we didn't know what that was because we didn't get to see very many of them as they really are. Now we get to see that and you can make of it what you will.

I consider this place an education I didn't have before...and the tuition is correctly priced. If you love aviation you'll want to hear what your fellows think and feel because they are you on many, and sometimes disquieting, levels. I don't feel the need to assault people for their differing views, but I still want to know what those views are.

Does what you've seen here portend a bad fate for aviation ? I doubt it because what you see here has always been with you...you just didn't know it was there.

 

[VVJM265]

bafanguy,

Nicely put.

 

[Sig]

You know, nostalgia isn't what it used to be.

Why, my grandfather instructed in WWII in P-38s. He thought it was a grand idea to chase skirts at all costs and imbibe as much booze at the cost of as many liver cells as possible. He admitted to flying hammered more than once, and one of those times was in a plane he hadn't flown before. He was one kill short of an ace. He flew every aircraft with a persuit designation, and I treasure his phenomenally detailed logbook as a totem.

He is still kicking, and quite hard.

There are two extremes in your arbitrary continuum: The starched "white glove" captain who can't crack a smile, and the disgusting slob who is trying to get the aforementioned pilot to laugh by cracking the loudest f^rts possible.

Both are jerks.

Neither are as big a jerk as the critic who couldn't fill either of their shoes.

 

[FishandFly]

While I agree that the internet is a venue for people to voice their opinions I do not agree that it has always been like this. I may be the eternal optimist, but I believe that there was a time prior to my arriving that was filled with people who loved to fly and acted on a different level than is commonplace today.

A while back I brought up an analogy concerning the proper wearing of a uniform. While a lot of us do not care what we look like in the black suit, I paralleled the fact that firemen, doctors, etc. hold a high standard of pride in what they do and that it naturally translated into them being professional.

I am willing to bet that you will not find a forum of surgeons, dentists, etc. where there is the lack of professionalism that is found here. Those who want to bring being a professional pilot to the level of high school theatrics have logic that I will never agree with.

If everyone starts acting like me we may all turn into the starched "white glove" captain who can't crack a smile, if the other side prevails we may run aviation into a group of disgusting slobs as Sig put it. My confusion is why this dilema exists in the first place and what I can do to lead us to the path of those true professionals who take pride in what they do.

 

[FN FAL]

A while back I brought up an analogy concerning the proper wearing of a uniform. While a lot of us do not care what we look like in the black suit, I paralleled the fact that firemen, doctors, etc. hold a high standard of pride in what they do and that it naturally translated into them being professional.

Which airline wears a black suit?

 

[sqwkvfr]

I don't know about the original question, but I always find it interesting to see the high number of "guests" that are almost constantly reading the "majors" and "regionals" forums.

I can't help but wonder how many management types are looking in.....

 

[Sig]

Fish:

The thing about your post that irritates me more than the word "morality" is the fact that you are speaking of pilots in the third person. It means one of two things:

A) You are not a pilot; or
2) You think you're above the rabble on this board.

Re-read my first post. It was a jab at you.

The very title of this thread is a joke! "What one thing is the cause of low pilot wages?? Hmm... I know! That durned forum! Praise Jesus, and thank Him for making me the insightful question-asker that I am."

Go out there and fight for higher wages, oh champeen! Show us all how to take the high road in all things, including a faceless forum where people vent, share information and stories (Duke Elegant!!), and just jibjab about the usual BS that goes along with this insane profession.

I can't stand arrogant pilots who thump their chest about whom they are and what they do, but I REALLLLLLLYYYYYY can't stand an arrogant wannabe. You're one of the two, but I suspect both.

Want to know why wages are what they are? Because we work for them. Plane (HAH) and simple. Everything else is window dressing, so I'll say it again: Wages are at their current levels because we're willing to work for them... not because of a forum and the antics therein. It is not a symptom, there is no causality between this forum and wages, and it certainly isn't a question of "morality."

I have an early show to make now, so I'll end this rant here.

 

[pilotyip]

It is funny as I read the posts on this board and I compare them to stories pilots have written about their careers in the 30's, 40's and 50's. I see the same things, rotten starting pay, QOL issues, how hard it is to get a flying job, slave to senority system, companies going out of business, etc. As much as people might think this is all new, some things do not change.

 

[bafanguy]

While I agree that the internet is a venue for people to voice their opinions I do not agree that it has always been like this. I may be the eternal optimist, but I believe that there was a time prior to my arriving that was filled with people who loved to fly and acted on a different level than is commonplace today.

F & F,

I still say people are the same creatures they've always been ( allowing for minor differences generated by transient personal/social influences ). We just didn't get a look at them until there was a way for them to show who they really are.

As for what this forum was like before I got here, some of the more senior members will have to comment...I wasn't here before I got here ( and feel free to quote me on that !! ). It's still a pretty interesting phenomenon, though.

Sig,

The wages are what they are because people will accept them at that level ? Sorry to say, you're right. What to do about it ? Dunno...way above my pay grade.

 

[rumpletumbler]

The reason pilots are getting paid less is that pilots will accept less pay.

I'll bet you if the Regionals lowered their F/O requirements to 250/5 they would be able to fill the seats with people who would do the job for free.

It is the same reason that so many businesses/restaurants etc. have such poor quality. The consumers still run like lemmings to them and foster the sales of their half-ass products.

The quality of all of it will continue to go down......down......down.......down......until people have had enough. Then and ONLY then will change be instituted.

Pilots are the reason the wages/benefits are where they are. Management and the companies themselves have nothing to do with it.

 

[pilotyip]

I do not agree I will bet most pilots are close to the $100K/yr mark 10 yrs after their first 135/121 job. That is not a bad number compared to the rest of the US population doing a job that does not require a college degree.

 

[FishandFly]

Fish:

The thing about your post that irritates me more than the word "morality" is the fact that you are speaking of pilots in the third person. It means one of two things:

A) You are not a pilot; or
2) You think you're above the rabble on this board.

Re-read my first post. It was a jab at you.

The very title of this thread is a joke! "What one thing is the cause of low pilot wages?? Hmm... I know! That durned forum! Praise Jesus, and thank Him for making me the insightful question-asker that I am."

Go out there and fight for higher wages, oh champeen! Show us all how to take the high road in all things, including a faceless forum where people vent, share information and stories (Duke Elegant!!), and just jibjab about the usual BS that goes along with this insane profession.

I can't stand arrogant pilots who thump their chest about whom they are and what they do, but I REALLLLLLLYYYYYY can't stand an arrogant wannabe. You're one of the two, but I suspect both.

Want to know why wages are what they are? Because we work for them. Plane (HAH) and simple. Everything else is window dressing, so I'll say it again: Wages are at their current levels because we're willing to work for them... not because of a forum and the antics therein. It is not a symptom, there is no causality between this forum and wages, and it certainly isn't a question of "morality."

I have an early show to make now, so I'll end this rant here.

Sig,
Yes, I realized that it was a jab. I didn't think it was worth responding to as you simply suggested that I was more of a jerk because I couldn't fill previous pilot's shoes.

I would have thought that fact would have gone without saying. A lot of previous and current pilots have had big shoes. I'm not attempting to match up.


Secondly,
While morality is religion based, I don't think it is so much to ask.

Third,
I appreciate your opinion. It supports the kind of lack of professionalism that I talk about.

You, just like a number of other forum members consistantly follow the same crap road on this forum. You read about 30 seconds worth of words spoken by myself to open up conversation on the lack of professionalism of many pilots and you immediately suggest that I'm a jerk because I can't fill your grandpa's shoes? Great job.

As to my being arrogant. I don't feel that I have a feeling of self-worth above and beyond what is normal. I just disagree with the tact that many have.

 

[pilotyip]

Isn't nice not be responsible for anything you say because you hide behind false names.

 

[BeCareful!]

Interesting thread.

I think relating it to pilot pay is a bit of a stretch, but not too much. There is a lot of evidence on this forum to show that pilots are, over time, becoming less able to hold themselves in high enough esteem to defend the profession.

The old AVSIG forum was a completely different animal, and much better.

This place often.....not always......but often degrades to nothing more than a sewer for the immature mind to take a dump in. Obviously, anonymity has its pros and cons.

 

[rumpletumbler]

This place often.....not always......but often degrades to nothing more than a sewer for the immature mind to take a dump in.

lol....I'm sure Mark will want to use that as his signature from now on.

See what I'm referring to in my other post. You "accept" this fact (if it is indeed fact) but continue to come here. If you don't like it as it is, then 'refuse' to participate until it is up to your standards or better yet....take the initiative and do something about it. Thanks for making my point.

Personally I have no desire to remain anonymous. I'd love to see a thread with pictures of everyone, but even if one were created and inline images allowed I doubt a lot of you would participate.

 

[HaywoodMan]

So True, Obi Wan.

If the majority of the 'posters' on this site would spend just half.....Oh Never Mind..Didn't want to sound like some of the holierthanthou A**holes that have nothing better to do than sit in front of their computer. Yes, I know that is not how you spell holie.....but that seems to be the big concern - more than substance.

Armageddon it!

 

[Bart Simpson]

So, are we gonna start bashing a regional airline or not?

In all seriousness, though, I would also like to add at least 3 cents to this thread:

DONT TAKE EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING SAID, DISCUSSED OR BASHED ON FLIGHTINFO TOO SERIOUSLY

Too many lameheads found this board to make fun of other people so that they can feel superior, poop on them.

<I am hidding behind my annunu...annony...anunomi...a fark, I am hiding behind a false identity>

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Is this forum the reason pilots are getting paid less?

I doubt it, but it could be the reason pilots are getting laid less.

 

[Captain Overs]

You have to take this site with a grain of salt. People say things they may not say or think otherwise because no one knows who they are. I think if we had to include our name and airline it would be a different board. I've egged people on just to see them get pissed before.


If you want a serious discussion on aviation go to a job fair.

 

[spitfire1500]

I know mgt at my regional actually has an attorney that briefs the CEO every few days about what is being said on our company chat board. I am sure they also look at this one and others like USAviation. What better way for mgt to get an insight of what employees are thinking out there. I also know ALPA has someone in our company that copies all the posts also.
Our mgt also fired a pilot they managed to catch that posted the crewtrackers home phonenumbers and another pilot who posted a video he made from the cockpit of a landing.

 

[Sig]

Sig,
Yes, I realized that it was a jab. I didn't think it was worth responding to as you simply suggested that I was more of a jerk because I couldn't fill previous pilot's shoes.

I would have thought that fact would have gone without saying. A lot of previous and current pilots have had big shoes. I'm not attempting to match up.


Secondly,
While morality is religion based, I don't think it is so much to ask.

Third,
I appreciate your opinion. It supports the kind of lack of professionalism that I talk about.

You, just like a number of other forum members consistantly follow the same crap road on this forum. You read about 30 seconds worth of words spoken by myself to open up conversation on the lack of professionalism of many pilots and you immediately suggest that I'm a jerk because I can't fill your grandpa's shoes? Great job.

As to my being arrogant. I don't feel that I have a feeling of self-worth above and beyond what is normal. I just disagree with the tact that many have.

I apologize for the vitriol, but not the message. I could (but wouldn't) have delivered more tactfully.

Let's also grant out a few other facts: Yes, you couldn't possibly fill my grandfather's shoes. A hard-core Irish Catholic drinking flyboy: You would dam him on many fronts immediately.

You remain a poseur, or a hypocrite, or a snob. The moral tradition of ethics is religion based- there are better standards of merit without invoking the deity of your choice. You do hold yourself high above the rest of us- and you make a smug flame-bait post to somehow illustrate that you (being as good a person you are) should make more than these peanut-gallery pilots with their low-brow humor and slacker principles.

Good job.

I suggest you are a jerk because the shoe fits. Jerk? Smug arse hole.

 

[Yank McCobb]

. My confusion is why this dilema exists in the first place and what I can do to lead us to the path of those true professionals who take pride in what they do.

The fact that you think you CAN do something to "lead us to the path" is frightening in itself.

Zealots in ANY form are the most dangerous creatures walking the face of the Earth. It matters not their crusade.

You sir, are dangerous. Please refrain from trying to "change" me.

 

[Axel]

The reason pilots are being paid less is that management has figured out that they can play us off against one another as never before.

They're doing a good job of it, too.

 

[pilotyip]

Alex, I assume you feel that the customer has nothing to do with anything going on in the market place?

 

[Axel]

Not at all. I'ts too big and complex an issue to boil down to a few sentences and of course the market forces play a primary role. However, in the narrow context of my statement, it cannot be denied that the pilot groups are being played off against each other with increasing regularity. It is a tactic as old as labor, but it is accelerating because due to other influences (such as pricing pressure) it has become a more effective tactic.

Problem is: ABC airlines, for example, is told to take a pay cuts or the jets go to XYZ. ABC buckles, then despises XYZ for undercutting when it was the management who pitted the groups against each other in the first place.

As long as the separate pilot groups are fighting amongst themselves, they will be holding their own way of life down. I am not dreaming of $250/hr to fly an Embraer, but I see QOL declining in response to management's actions. It will not be until the pilot groups are working together that the teeth of the whipsaw will be blunted. I realize I am living in a perfect world here, but when I witness the angst between the groups I cannot help but grind my teeth in frustration that management so effectively plays us off against one another and we direct our anger inward instead of taking concerted action to hold against the real adversary.

It's not Mesa's fault; it's all of ours for being blind to the real threat.

 

[FishandFly]

I apologize for the vitriol, but not the message. I could (but wouldn't) have delivered more tactfully.

Let's also grant out a few other facts: Yes, you couldn't possibly fill my grandfather's shoes. A hard-core Irish Catholic drinking flyboy: You would dam him on many fronts immediately.

You remain a poseur, or a hypocrite, or a snob. The moral tradition of ethics is religion based- there are better standards of merit without invoking the deity of your choice. You do hold yourself high above the rest of us- and you make a smug flame-bait post to somehow illustrate that you (being as good a person you are) should make more than these peanut-gallery pilots with their low-brow humor and slacker principles.

Good job.

I suggest you are a jerk because the shoe fits. Jerk? Smug arse hole.

Vitriol aside, I was referring to you, not your petty insults.

This thread was not planted as flamebait. You made it that, or attempted to bait me by immediately bringing grandpa into mix. You suggest that I am a poseur, hypocrite snobby smug arse hole? You are certainly not good at fitting shoes.

You have turned this into a worthless conversation at high school level.

 

[FishandFly]

The fact that you think you CAN do something to "lead us to the path" is frightening in itself.

Zealots in ANY form are the most dangerous creatures walking the face of the Earth. It matters not their crusade.



You sir, are dangerous. Please refrain from trying to "change" me.

Youths follow examples of their elders. They come here to learn about aviation and wind up following conversations of people who act exceptionally unprofessional. If you don't see this or don't agree, then I assume you are not reading the same threads I have come upon.



My original point stands. Pilot's acting like idiots in this forum is not good for aviation. I understand it is where everyone rants, but there is a point where a person becomes directly unprofessional. (See previous post)



A number of people think I'm the one in the wrong for suggesting that the bar should be raised. I would expect nothing less.



The ones I wish to change or impress upon are the ones who have just clicked on to flightinfo and wonder why a good number of the threads mimic the attitude, professionalism, and tact that they see while on a smoking break working at the local burger king.