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Is the Southwest pay/contract sustainable at current market?

  • Thread starter Thread starter JT12345
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JT12345

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Feb 7, 2007
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Well I hear some of the Southwest pilots are making what I might call stupid money over there, and it scares me a little. Hearing 10 hours of sick a month, so everyone calls in sick to drop trips into open time for others to pick up at 150% or 200%. Capts making 360k to 400k and FOs 180k to 200k. Scamming the system or at least that is probably how management sees it. They signed off on this too.

So do you think the current market dictates this?

Is this the average? The way I see it making 30% more than you piers is not sustainable long term in this business and tends to lead to tragedy. I think the average is FO 150k and CA 300k.

So are these numbers justified in the current market?

How are negotiations going and in what direction? Increase? Flat? Givebacks?

_______________

Delta is twice as big as SWA, but made 4x more in 3rd quarter at 400+ million vs. 100+ not including the 500 million Delta made on fuel hedging.

Does this worry any of the RSW cause it is worrying this FAT?
 
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Delta making four times more does not scare me, they'll be back to the bankruptcy trough soon enough.

Your 10 hours a month sick time comment makes no sense. It has been said some do drop a trip via sick call to become legal and they are a problem, that number is well into the .1% range of pilots.

There are captains and FO's who can game the system and on the occasion make what you quote, those that can do that number in the sub 1%. This is by no means the average, thats down around 100TFP, which is what 99% make. No one makes 200% every month,which by the way takes 25-28 days on the road a month.

The highest month to month average is about 110-125TFP, thats working 2-4 more days a month.

Justified in the current market, what do you mean?

Negotiations are going thats all we know.
 
As carriers continue to consolidate and get contracts similar to DAL then SWA will be able to sustain what they have.
 
Flyby1206 said:
As carriers continue to consolidate and get contracts similar to DAL then SWA will be able to sustain what they have.
Click to expand...

But Scoreboard said dal will be back in bankruptcy soon enough. I'm not sure if he thinks that's good or bad for sustaining his wage.
 
scoreboardII said:
Delta making four times more does not scare me, they'll be back to the bankruptcy trough soon enough.

Your 10 hours a month sick time comment makes no sense. It has been said some do drop a trip via sick call to become legal and they are a problem, that number is well into the .1% range of pilots.

There are captains and FO's who can game the system and on the occasion make what you quote, those that can do that number in the sub 1%. This is by no means the average, thats down around 100TFP, which is what 99% make. No one makes 200% every month,which by the way takes 25-28 days on the road a month.

The highest month to month average is about 110-125TFP, thats working 2-4 more days a month.

Justified in the current market, what do you mean?

Negotiations are going thats all we know.
Click to expand...

Huh? Back to the BK trough? Oh come on. The debt is being brought down by $2 billion PER YEAR, and it will have gone from $18 Billion to $10 billion within 4 years.

The problem with you guys is the LCC model. To sustain it, you need lower costs, and because of longevity, you have more people at top scale then you ever had before. Unless you grow A LOT, or produce a heck of a lot more revenue, you won't be able to sustain the same profit margin that you USED to have. You grew a little with AT, but you are shelving half of their planes, and keeping all of their employees, who were cheaper, but will be just as expensive as your own soon. You had TV commercials stating "Oh, SWA would NEVER do that...." when it came to charging for bags, yet you still charge for bags on the AT side. You have old computer systems at SWA that can't handle INTL flights. You have old clunky 737-300s that will stick around longer as you push 737-800 deliveries back. You have some big problems with disgruntled AT pilots. You don't have hedges anymore, so you can't really turn down fare increases (heck, you start a lot of them, to the chagrin of all the legacies), and it almost seems like you guys lack a plan. You have maxed out the 48 contiguous States, and are trying to look for more, but your ETOPS program to Hawaii is on hold, and you are looking at AT to help you start Mexico flying and Caribbean, even though you did throw SWA planes on some SJU flights. It's a mess, and it's not the same SWA in the past. And DL made more in profit in one quarter than you have in two years.



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
texman said:
We are more productive. Do the math.
Click to expand...


Will you be able to do as many trips when the 717s go away and you have an extra 500 pilots sitting around? What will happen then? I assume those guys will be trained on the 737 (free type for some! Yay!), and then there will be plenty of reserves to pick up all of those extra trips some of the guys on here pick up to make $300K as an FO...... What then?



Bye Bye---General Lee
 
General Lee said:
. And DL made more in profit in one quarter than you have in two years.



Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...


Gloating in the airline biz is not a wise idea. DL has lost more in a quarter than SW has made in 2 years as well. Enjoy your success, but boasting is unwise.
 
General Lee said:
Huh? Back to the BK trough? Oh come on. The debt is being brought down by $2 billion PER YEAR, and it will have gone from $18 Billion to $10 billion within 4 years.

The problem with you guys is the LCC model. To sustain it, you need lower costs, and because of longevity, you have more people at top scale then you ever had before. Unless you grow A LOT, or produce a heck of a lot more revenue, you won't be able to sustain the same profit margin that you USED to have. You grew a little with AT, but you are shelving half of their planes, and keeping all of their employees, who were cheaper, but will be just as expensive as your own soon. You had TV commercials stating "Oh, SWA would NEVER do that...." when it came to charging for bags, yet you still charge for bags on the AT side. You have old computer systems at SWA that can't handle INTL flights. You have old clunky 737-300s that will stick around longer as you push 737-800 deliveries back. You have some big problems with disgruntled AT pilots. You don't have hedges anymore, so you can't really turn down fare increases (heck, you start a lot of them, to the chagrin of all the legacies), and it almost seems like you guys lack a plan. You have maxed out the 48 contiguous States, and are trying to look for more, but your ETOPS program to Hawaii is on hold, and you are looking at AT to help you start Mexico flying and Caribbean, even though you did throw SWA planes on some SJU flights. It's a mess, and it's not the same SWA in the past. And DL made more in profit in one quarter than you have in two years.


Bye Bye---General Lee
Click to expand...

You know, I was wondering when the General was going to come along and tell us all exactly how the world (and Southwest) really works. Thanks for not keeping me waiting TOO long, General--I appreciate your help in getting me to see that all Southwest has done for 40-odd years is build one big house of cards that will fail at any second. Should I put my application in with Delta now, General? Or should I wait until Delta buys our miserable excuse for an airline? If I wait until then, I assume that you will insist on relative seniority and that I keep my Captain seat... Right? That way I can fly around all over the world with you as my FO, enjoying 90-hour layovers in fabulous European cities! Don't worry--I'll buy all the beer from all the Southwest money I've saved up. I can hardly wait...

Bubba
 
SWA Bubba said:
You know, I was wondering when the General was going to come along and tell us all exactly how the world (and Southwest) really works. Thanks for not keeping me waiting TOO long, General--I appreciate your help in getting me to see that all Southwest has done for 40-odd years is build one big house of cards that will fail at any second. Should I put my application in with Delta now, General? Or should I wait until Delta buys our miserable excuse for an airline? If I wait until then, I assume that you will insist on relative seniority and that I keep my Captain seat... Right? That way I can fly around all over the world with you as my FO, enjoying 90-hour layovers in fabulous European cities! Don't worry--I'll buy all the beer from all the Southwest money I've saved up. I can hardly wait...

Bubba
Click to expand...

If you want upward movement, yes, throw your app into DL. You won't get it at SWA for years, primarily because of the way you are set up. One fleet type (after 717s leave) means when one guy retires, one moves up, and one gets hired. That's it. If you have 150 leave in one year, then 150 move up and 150 are hired. If you are 1000 or 2000 from that upgrade, you have years and years to go, 5 legs a day at a time. At a legacy, one guy retires, 8 move up, then one is hired. Sure, that is expensive, but big profits help pay for that.


As for your so called "house of cards" as you called it, I disagree, but your airline is certainly not as stable as it was after 9-11. No more hedges, higher costs including fuel and longevity costs with more senior employees, and merger costs from a merger that hasn't gone as well as planned so far. Your airline isn't going to crumble, but it's not as solid as you think. It's going to be a different competition coming up here between the airlines because you aren't the low cost leader anymore with great fuel hedges. Even GK has seemed to figure this out.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:
freightdogfred said:
Gloating in the airline biz is not a wise idea. DL has lost more in a quarter than SW has made in 2 years as well. Enjoy your success, but boasting is unwise.
Click to expand...

Boasting? Stating fact. Scoreboard II saying DL will be going back to the BK trough had to have a truthful response. DL has responded well to the threats of chronic high gas, and a down economy, here and in Europe. Think what could happen if those things change for the better? Good stuff, for all airlines, but great for legacies.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
sounds a lot like "My dad can beat up your dad"
 
The general is right SWA has some serious issues to solve. The place is run like a 135 ops carrier. Can't wait to cross the partition and go back to 1975!
 

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