Is the Southwest pay/contract sustainable at current market?

[jonjuan]

I didn't say they did.

But I bet you over 50% of us have a B.S. degree of some kind (I have one in INFS as well as Aviation), and if you're going to do a salary comparison, do it with other degreed professionals. Don't use the McDonald's worker.

Apples to Apples, my friend. Not Apples to rotted lemon.

The average FO at SWA makes $140k/year. Where does that put you in the list of BS degrees? Certainly not at 60%. My Uncles a 60 year old engineer at Cisco and makes $130K year. I wonder how that compares to the average 60 year old major airline pilot?

 

[Lear70]

The average FO at SWA makes $140k/year. Where does that put you in the list of BS degrees? Certainly not at 60%.

I'm not at SWA (yet).

I'm also talking about the overall industry at the Major/Legacy level, most of which are in bankruptcy-era contracts. SWA is at the TOP of the spectrum for their equipment, but you know that.

Until the INDUSTRY AVERAGE comes up to where ALL the Majors/Legacies are at that $120k-140k for F/O's, AND until the Regional F/O's starting salary is above the POVERTY LINE, AND until the industry overall KEEPS UP WITH INFLATION...

then No, I'd say we are NOT compensated appropriately, given the level of training and commitment just to OBTAIN the career and the responsibilities that accompany it. is it difficult? When everything is going smoothly? More than the average McDonald's or Walmart worker, yes. When everything goes to hell in a handbasket?

Ask Sully.

Or ask any number of guys who have had real in-flight emergencies where the crew and passengers mostly survived due to flying skills and decision making but the aircraft didn't due to the severity of the emergency.

Or the crews who didn't survive but most (or all) of the passengers did.

This isn't a minimum wage or office clerical job and should never be compared to such. Cardio or Ortho surgeon? No. But I never suggested we should be making $600k a year plus...

 

[pilotyip]

How about you compare our income to people who graduated college. Here's your sign::beer:

You quoted the high end of college grads, people who take demanding courses that produce skills that are in demand in the marketplace. How many college grads with degrees in Art, French Histroy, or Photography are making anying close to those wages. The 10% was all people in the US average individual income. BTW Remember pilots do not need a college degree to make 6 figures, I know too many who are at that level without the perfection of the four year degree

 

[madjack]

SWA pilots are well paid but we work hard and are efficient...the pay is sustainable as long as we stay efficient...

 

[scoreboardII]

efficiency stopped being a swa model a few years ago. Pt to Pt: less than 60% of flights today exists as point to point. Highest plane per pilot ratio, sliding block hr to pilot ratio, etc...

 

[Lear70]

You quoted the high end of college grads,

No, I didn't.

YOU compared the piloting profession to the ENTIRE U.S. population in terms of income, stating that we were in the "Top 10% of income earners", which also includes people on Welfare and those who never graduated High School flipping burgers and doing oil changes at Jiffy Lube.

I simply compared us to OTHER PROFESSIONALS, which includes people with College Degrees. I also took an average of $100k a year (which includes all the Regional folk as well as Major/Legacy folk) and compared it to those B.S. degrees. The low was $40k. The top was closer to $160k. Take each degree, the "Low" on each one, add them together, then divide by the number of categories, and you come up with an "Average Low". Then take each degree, the "High" on each one, add them together, then divide by the number of categories, and you come up with an "Average High".

Then put our average $100k on that scale and see where you come in at. Top 45-40%, not top 10% (or, to put it more succinctly, almost dead smack "average" in comparison to B.S. degree professionals who get to be home every night and don't have the risk we do in terms of jeopardy training events every 6 months or possible in-flight emergencies).

By the way, that's called "Statistics 101" for those of you keeping Collegiate score.

people who take demanding courses that produce skills that are in demand in the marketplace.

Ah, now we get to the crux of the matter.

People are talking about the coming hiring boom, when our skills WILL be in demand in the market place once again, rather than an over-supply of pilots. I expect that pay scale to get back to the top 10% of B.S. degree wage earners and then I'll stop kvetching about it.

Come on, you can admit it... comparing us to burger flippers and stating we were in the top 10% of wage earners and, therefore, shouldn't be complaining about wanting more is just a bad, bad argument.

 

[pilotyip]

No, I didn't.

Y
Come on, you can admit it... comparing us to burger flippers and stating we were in the top 10% of wage earners and, therefore, shouldn't be complaining about wanting more is just a bad, bad argument.

yea bugger flippers at 100K/yr upper 10% check it out.


http://www.financialsamurai.com/2011/04/12/how-much-money-do-the-top-income-earners-make-percent/

 

[jonjuan]

Then put our average $100k on that scale and see where you come in at. Top 45-40%, not top 10% (or, to put it more succinctly, almost dead smack "average" in comparison to B.S. degree professionals who get to be home every night and don't have the risk we do in terms of jeopardy training events every 6 months or possible in-flight emergencies).

Jeopardy training event? Lol. I wonder what the stats show as to major airline pilots "failing" these events and subsequently losing their job. I have never heard of a single person ever failing and losing a job.
Many more of my engineering, non pilot buds have more unstable jobs than those who are pilots.

 

[General Lee]

Jeopardy training event? Lol. I wonder what the stats show as to major airline pilots "failing" these events and subsequently losing their job. I have never heard of a single person ever failing and losing a job.
Many more of my engineering, non pilot buds have more unstable jobs than those who are pilots.

Buds? Riiiiiiight.... LOL.......What does your cell mate say? Does he call you BEN? You bet he does. Enjoy!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Lear70]

yea bugger flippers at 100K/yr upper 10% check it out.


http://www.financialsamurai.com/2011/04/12/how-much-money-do-the-top-income-earners-make-percent/

Ummm, that article doesn't say anything about burger flippers making $100k a year. It says they make $20k a year now if they work 40 hours a week at it.

What's your point?

 

[pilotyip]

Ummm, that article doesn't say anything about burger flippers making $100k a year. It says they make $20k a year now if they work 40 hours a week at it.

What's your point?

I think you implied that I was comparing pilots to burger flippers, not the case. The "yea" was meant to be sarcastic. Most pilots who have been in this career for 10 years are averaging 100K. A number I have never seen in my life, therefore I think it is a nice number.

 

[redflyer65]

I have never heard of a single person ever failing and losing a job.

I've heard of it happening. It's always a possiblity...albeit rare. Which is a good thing.

RF

 

[Quiet Flight]

Point of information, the "average" SWA pay for both Captains and F/O's on this thread are over stated by a pretty significant amount.

There are a relative few who achieve great heights compared to the rest, however this is limited to a very small number.

Most pilots make 100 x TFP + per diem with a little extra throughout the year for vacation month increases.

Average longevity for Captains is 15 years and for F/O's it's about 6 years.

12 yr CA TFP = 189
6 yr FO TFP = 119

189 x 1200 = 226,800 + 6000/per diem = $233k
119 x 1200 = 142,800 + 6000/per diem = $149k

YMMV

 

[4day]

Good to here from a Real SouthWest. Do you have a bag tag yet?

 

[Lear70]

I think you implied that I was comparing pilots to burger flippers, not the case. The "yea" was meant to be sarcastic. Most pilots who have been in this career for 10 years are averaging 100K. A number I have never seen in my life, therefore I think it is a nice number.

Lay off the Yipsi crack pipe, my friend...

Most pilots 10 years after they get their CMEL ticket are still at a Regional making about $65-70k a year as a Captain.

If they're lucky. I know more than a handful of CMR pilots who are on the street at 10+ years (or more).

 

[Lear70]

Point of information, the "average" SWA pay for both Captains and F/O's on this thread are over stated by a pretty significant amount.

There are a relative few who achieve great heights compared to the rest, however this is limited to a very small number.

Most pilots make 100 x TFP + per diem with a little extra throughout the year for vacation month increases.

Average longevity for Captains is 15 years and for F/O's it's about 6 years.

12 yr CA TFP = 189
6 yr FO TFP = 119

189 x 1200 = 226,800 + 6000/per diem = $233k
119 x 1200 = 142,800 + 6000/per diem = $149k

YMMV

I initially put that in one of my posts but removed it, not wanting to get into a SWA pay thread creep.

Most of us will probably average in the 92-95 per month TFP range as commuters wanting 16+ days off a month and being in the bottom half of the seniority list.

 

[jonjuan]

Lay off the Yipsi crack pipe, my friend...

Most pilots 10 years after they get their CMEL ticket are still at a Regional making about $65-70k a year as a Captain.

If they're lucky. I know more than a handful of CMR pilots who are on the street at 10+ years (or more).

And I know more than a few who went from MEL to SWA and DAL in 5. The hiring boom and new contracts at UAL US and AMR will change the numbers dramatically and very soon.

 

[JT12345]

SWA pilots are well paid but we work hard and are efficient...the pay is sustainable as long as we stay efficient...

Well I am timing out for the year. Are you? How many time out over there on the SWA side?

I am looking at a $10k raise on reserve at SWA vs. Lineholder AAI. That looks about it. I will have 15 days off non commutable instead of 12 off busting my arse to make money here at AAI and time out, but commutable. I have to be on reserve commuting to who knows what base, but it will probably be further and harder to commute to for awhile.

And now I read about the transition issues, and think this is really going to be messed up. I like to see them save money on training expense, but kinda sucks someone junior is making more than me. It is just temporary. I worry about more -long term-.

And the transition is the least of the things I worry about with the financials of SWA although if it would have been done smoother with less road bumps they would probably be making more money from the merger.


I think SWA does a great job of building schedules. They squeeze those short legs in to max your days, and they have a contract pay schedule that motivates the pilots to shave time off every leg saving fuel.

I do not work there yet. I am always down at the jet bridge waiting for the plane arriving late to pull up to do my walk around and turn that puppy. I am curious what else you guys do, and look forward to that. It seems slow. I just wonder and worry if I am going to make it over there.

Latest I hear the process might be speeding up.

 

[scoreboardII]

You''ll do great.

 

[HA25]

So the government deregulates the airlines, the free market has a chance to take over, people show that allowed to choose they would rather pay less for a ticket, than get a steak and lobster dinner on the flight.

It's far more complicated than cutting out the steak and lobster..

Airfares are lower than they ever were.

as are airline profit margins and their survival rates..

There are more airline pilot jobs at the majors than there ever were.

paying far less than they ever did..

There are more people flying, more miles on more airplanes than ever. And deregulation is a failure?

Partially, yes... and partially no... it's just not a matter of black and white... we need some gray.