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Is PFT back?
- Thread starter JetPilot500
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KingAirer
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Still sounds kinda cruddy to me. People with 800TT are not getting calls for airline jobs. But in this case it seems that you "dropped a check" at Gulfstream which gave you this chance at Pinnacle. Most people are not getting this chance as much as you try to justify that you got in just like everyone else.
Im not bashing anyone here, im just saying it sucks big time that people are paying for right seats when they hit 300 hours and are rewarded with preferential treatmeant at a good airline. I just dont see the logic, when there are plenty of people who have been working hard, and paying dues, and arent even getting a single phone call, while people such as this are getting into RJs. Life sucks i guess.
Im not bashing anyone here, im just saying it sucks big time that people are paying for right seats when they hit 300 hours and are rewarded with preferential treatmeant at a good airline. I just dont see the logic, when there are plenty of people who have been working hard, and paying dues, and arent even getting a single phone call, while people such as this are getting into RJs. Life sucks i guess.
Vik
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Think of it from a management standpoint.
If they hire 200 pilots that are willing to pay for their own training (regardless of whether they wash out or not), it just saved the airline $2m (using $10k as the cost of training).
The bottom line on the financial statement is all management cares about or needs to care about. Their responsibility is to the shareholders, not to anyone else.
I can't see myself paying $10k for a job with 300 TT. But if I got to what some of the CFIs at my school are at now, 2000 TT and with no job in sight, I would probably be ready to crack.
If they hire 200 pilots that are willing to pay for their own training (regardless of whether they wash out or not), it just saved the airline $2m (using $10k as the cost of training).
The bottom line on the financial statement is all management cares about or needs to care about. Their responsibility is to the shareholders, not to anyone else.
I can't see myself paying $10k for a job with 300 TT. But if I got to what some of the CFIs at my school are at now, 2000 TT and with no job in sight, I would probably be ready to crack.
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Vik
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Falcon Capt,
I guess everyones situation might be different. If I were 30, and was still making $15k/yr or less as a CFI, that $10k I spent towards training might double my income.
I'm 23 now and I can easily say I wouldn't PFT. If I had started flying later in life and say I am 30, 2,000 TT, finished 3yrs+ of CFIing, I might not have that same attitude.
Some CFIs have a wife and kids to feed. I can't imagine having to support a family on CFI wages especially in SoCal where I am.
I guess everyones situation might be different. If I were 30, and was still making $15k/yr or less as a CFI, that $10k I spent towards training might double my income.
I'm 23 now and I can easily say I wouldn't PFT. If I had started flying later in life and say I am 30, 2,000 TT, finished 3yrs+ of CFIing, I might not have that same attitude.
Some CFIs have a wife and kids to feed. I can't imagine having to support a family on CFI wages especially in SoCal where I am.
bobbysamd
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Pride v. selling your soul
That's it, exactly. Or, worse yet, how you got your start.
Don't worry so much about the instructing hours piling up without a regional, etc. hiring you. Very few regionals are hiring. You just can't stop flying altogether because you've hit the "too many hours instructing" threshold in your career. None of it won't matter once hiring starts up again. Also, consider that you are working as a pilot when so many more are not working.
(emphasis added)KingAirer said:
That's it, exactly. Or, worse yet, how you got your start.
Don't worry so much about the instructing hours piling up without a regional, etc. hiring you. Very few regionals are hiring. You just can't stop flying altogether because you've hit the "too many hours instructing" threshold in your career. None of it won't matter once hiring starts up again. Also, consider that you are working as a pilot when so many more are not working.
banned username 2
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Vik said:
Ok, Riddle me this.... If you are so hard up for money to feed the wife and kids, why would you take $10,000 (that you probably don't have because you are broke from being a CFI) and spend it all at once to increase your income from $15k to $22k? That extra $7k per year will only be about $5k per year take home pay. So now it takes you 2 years to recoup your investment...
Don't you think given 2 years time you would find a better job anyhow?
When I was flight instructing back in the early 90's there were guys (NOT from my school) who were doing PFT... and eneded up making $17k or so... I CFI'ed for an extra 6-9 months and got a charter job making $31k... Their Captains at the PFT airlines weren't even making that... and upgrades were 2-3 years min.
It just isn't worth it, and if you need the income sooo bad, you can't afford the PFT...
I agree with KingAirer... The decisions you make can (and will) follow you for a very long time in your career... Don't do something dumb early on...
Falcon Capt said:
All of you say that this decision will follow us for the rest of our careers. That pilots at the majors will look down on us.
Well, the fact is that every CA at every major I've jumpseated on has not had anything bad to say about my decision. In fact the most common response from a CA when I handed him my GIA employee ID to jumpseat was: "I'm thinking about sending my kid to Gulfstream, could you give me their phone number?" Or how about this one: "I wish I had that opportunity when I was starting in this industry."
The reality is that the only people who care are you guys on this board like Bobbysamd that were never able to get a real flying job. Get over it and move on. Stop being so obsessed with PFT.
bobbysamd
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Real flying job
I wasn't aware that instructing at (1) a major aviation college; (2) a well-known and very large commercial school that trained self-paying and airline contract students; and (3) an airline-affiliated flight school were not "real" flying jobs. None of which I paid for, by the way. For a time, at one of those "not real" flying jobs, I was earning a salary comparable to salaries paid to commuter captains of the day. The airplanes I was flying, while not turbine, certainly abided by all the laws and science of aeronautics of which most people are aware.
Just for some counterpoint, I took a flight on Continental several months ago. I started talking with some of the pilots. They thought Gulfstream was a joke.
I guess it all depends on who you talk to.
I wasn't aware that instructing at (1) a major aviation college; (2) a well-known and very large commercial school that trained self-paying and airline contract students; and (3) an airline-affiliated flight school were not "real" flying jobs. None of which I paid for, by the way. For a time, at one of those "not real" flying jobs, I was earning a salary comparable to salaries paid to commuter captains of the day. The airplanes I was flying, while not turbine, certainly abided by all the laws and science of aeronautics of which most people are aware.
Just for some counterpoint, I took a flight on Continental several months ago. I started talking with some of the pilots. They thought Gulfstream was a joke.
I guess it all depends on who you talk to.
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CRJ200FO said:
All this from the SAME guy who in another post said:
CRJ200FO said:
So you won't "sink" to the "low wages" of SWA, BUT you will SINK to paying a company $18,000 for a job???
Well like you said, if pilots accept low wages then thats what the companies will pay, and so will all the other companies....
Well the same holds true, if Pilots are willing to Pay-For-Training then all the companies will eventually make pilots do this...
You talk with fork tongue, Pale Face.... You are totally contradicting yourself... in on thread you defend Pay-for-training (probably because THAT is what you did) and in another you talk about "upholding the high quality of compensation and benefits for pilots" but your ACTIONS (which ALWAYS speak louder than words) says you'll do whatever you need to get YOURSELF ahead... i.e. PFT...
You'd best start saving up for that 747 Type Rating, I think it will cost a little more than the $18,000 you already paid to get into this Industry....
I think you have a lot to learn... a lot...
Oh, and Junior... leave Bobbysamd alone, if Daddy didn't cough up the $18,000 for you to actually get hired somewhere at 850 hours you'd be sitting in the right seat of some 152 doing touch n' go's with a student...
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Falcon Capt said:
I would contend that there is nothing wrong with paying for training for an ENTRY level job. That is all that GIA is. You are paying for experience. Not a job.
Gulfstream would not even exist if it were not for PFT. You are not taking someone else's job by paying for training because there wouldn't be a job without the FO program. Tom Cooper never had any intention of running an airline. The airline he started was just a way to sell his flight school. There has been PFT at GIA since they were a C_402 operator when they started. If the PFT stopped then the airline would cease operation. GIA doesn't make any money. Their flight school does. Going to GIA is no different than going to Ari Ben Aviator in Ft. Pierce to get multi time. All you are doing is paying for experience. No qualified pilots are having their jobs stolen by PFT'ers at GIA. On the other hand, many qualified pilots are not able to get jobs at SWA because they refuse to pay for their type rating. Seems a lot worse than GIA to me.
Oh, and by the way. "Daddy" didn't pay. I have a hefty loan I'll be paying off for quite some time. And as for instructing experience, I was a sim and ground instuctor for about a year and half. I've spent about 1500 hours instructing in Frascas and Be-1900 sims. I also have done about 150 hours dual given in the cessnas you refer to. I didn't enjoy it, so I stopped. Pretty simple.
JetPilot500
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Let me call Gulfstream right now and thank them for providing such a wonderful service to the aviation community!
That is quite a short sided view. Airlines exist because people are demanding a service to take them from one place to another. To say that "No qualified pilots are having their jobs stolen by PFT'ers at GIA" is rediculous. If GIA didn't exist, some other airline would have to be in place to fill those "demanded" routes. And those pilots would be paid for the work they perform.
GIA is a sleezebag operation, no matter how you look at it. They are not performing any service to the aviation community, only a dis-service! And to think they are running an airline to break-even and help their flight school student is rediculous.
I could say so much here, but I won't!
JetPilot500
CRJ200FO said:
That is quite a short sided view. Airlines exist because people are demanding a service to take them from one place to another. To say that "No qualified pilots are having their jobs stolen by PFT'ers at GIA" is rediculous. If GIA didn't exist, some other airline would have to be in place to fill those "demanded" routes. And those pilots would be paid for the work they perform.
GIA is a sleezebag operation, no matter how you look at it. They are not performing any service to the aviation community, only a dis-service! And to think they are running an airline to break-even and help their flight school student is rediculous.
CRJ200FO said:
I could say so much here, but I won't!
JetPilot500
Vik said:
Look, I'm not trying to say that GIA is a great place to go. I'm certainly not recommending it to people with the industry the way it is now. Now is not the best time to be getting into aviation, PFT or not. All I'm saying is that if you need multi-turbine 121 experience, then GIA is one way to go. I would certainly not argue with your point about GIA kicking people to the curb. I have many friends that have been screwed by GIA and Tom Cooper.
JetPilot500 said:
No, please do! As if the PFT issue hasn't been beaten to death on this board enought already. We are talking about pay and unions on another thread and you bring PFT into that too! It is obvious that none of us are going to agree about this ever. I only posted on this thread to clear up the fact that PCL is not requiring people to PFT and instead I got dragged into the whole PFT debate again. I think it's time we put this issue away for awhile. You have stronly held beliefs about this and so do I. We aren't going to change each other's minds about this.
Bobbysamd: I would like to apologize for any personal attacks I made against you during this debate. Sometimes things are said in the middle of an arguement that are later regretted. I realize that you are very knowledgable in many areas of aviation and have a good amount of experience. I didn't mean to belittle your job as a CFI, only to point out that that was not what your ultimate career goals were in aviation. Again, I apologize.
And that is last thing I have to say about PFT for a long time. N9103M was right, we need to stop debating this issue. It's going nowhere.
bobbysamd
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Real flying job
I never, really and truly, gave up on getting a job with the regionals. I put it on the back burner. I had to face reality in 1990-'92 that there was no hiring. So, I took the flight instructing direction, although I still pursued certain regionals. There were some that I pursued for about six years. I guess that I was one of the few newer pilots of my era who enjoyed flight instructing, however . . . .
There comes a time when reality hits. I had just lost a job. I had too many strikes against me. I needed a job that paid money. And, that's why I took the direction that I did - though I continued to apply during the next year.
To give you an idea of the hiring mentality one faces, the October, 1993 Career Pilot magazine had two articles that sent conflicting messages. One article was about flight instructing. That article essentially stated that if you build time you will be attractive to the airlines. The other article featured SkyWest, and quoted a Dale Merrill, who was Vice-President of Human Resources at SkyWest. Mr. Merrill said that if a regional hadn't hired you by something like 2500 hours that you were labeled as "having problems" and in need of a "hard look." By that time, I had the hours you see on the left, built up through flight instructing. Hello, Mr. Merrill! I was working, was current, and was building experience while so many other pilots were not current and not working I submit that Mr. Merrill's attitude is typical of regional H.R. coneheadedness. That's what I was up against. That's why I made the decision I made.
One other thing about Gulfstream. I understand that its FOs are paid during the time they're building their 250 hours. Now, it might be only temporary work, but, correct me if I'm wrong, it's still work and is being compensated therefor.
Don't worry about your comments above, Mr. CRJ. Apology accepted.
Well, for one thing, back in 1990-'92, there virtually no regional jobs except for P-F-T. I've already addressed that issue ad nauseum. The other thing is I was competing against furloughed Eastern and Pan Am pilots and I was 40. Someone like me with my quals competing against the former is virtually impossible. As far as the latter is concerned, those in my peer group, who were also flight instructors and primarily 25 and under, were getting the regional jobs. I, at 40, was barely getting replies. You figure it out.CRJ200FO said:
I never, really and truly, gave up on getting a job with the regionals. I put it on the back burner. I had to face reality in 1990-'92 that there was no hiring. So, I took the flight instructing direction, although I still pursued certain regionals. There were some that I pursued for about six years. I guess that I was one of the few newer pilots of my era who enjoyed flight instructing, however . . . .
There comes a time when reality hits. I had just lost a job. I had too many strikes against me. I needed a job that paid money. And, that's why I took the direction that I did - though I continued to apply during the next year.
To give you an idea of the hiring mentality one faces, the October, 1993 Career Pilot magazine had two articles that sent conflicting messages. One article was about flight instructing. That article essentially stated that if you build time you will be attractive to the airlines. The other article featured SkyWest, and quoted a Dale Merrill, who was Vice-President of Human Resources at SkyWest. Mr. Merrill said that if a regional hadn't hired you by something like 2500 hours that you were labeled as "having problems" and in need of a "hard look." By that time, I had the hours you see on the left, built up through flight instructing. Hello, Mr. Merrill! I was working, was current, and was building experience while so many other pilots were not current and not working I submit that Mr. Merrill's attitude is typical of regional H.R. coneheadedness. That's what I was up against. That's why I made the decision I made.
One other thing about Gulfstream. I understand that its FOs are paid during the time they're building their 250 hours. Now, it might be only temporary work, but, correct me if I'm wrong, it's still work and is being compensated therefor.
Don't worry about your comments above, Mr. CRJ. Apology accepted.
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