Is NetJets a career place?

[gunfyter]

Everyone throttle back on 214...he just likes to come over from the Corp board and do some NJA bashing for sport! For some reason he's had an axe to grind with us for some time.

I see you and other Corp guys make the point that there are better Corp jobs out there with better bennies and moola. quote]

Thats funny.... I read 214's posts on our board all the time. What Corporation do we let on the IBT message board?

 

[buttercup]

as214.....NetJets is somewhere between the Regionals and most of the Majors. Many people is this world can live quite comfortably in this realm.

What are you trying to prove with these posts? NetJets will never be a United, Delta or American airlines but most people have a better chance getting hired here then at those places so for them, and I include myself in that proud group, this is a career. And there certainly isn't anything wrong with it.

I certainly would leave here to go to some other 121 scheduled carriers and that includes SWA. And I have no apps out with anyone else.

Every pilot has to make their choice...some choices are more limited than other...This isn't for everyone, but for those who are cut out for it, its not a bad way to go.

DO,

I respect your post and opinions. You have an open mind and I respect that. You are quick to highlight the positive and negative aspects of NJA. The problem is that some have a tendency to accentuate only the positive, or to elaborate. Many potential new-hires and job seekers read these boards. Most with families. They need to have an unbiased, unadulterated breakdown of the do's and dont's, the haves and the have nots of obtaining employment at NJA. They need to weight the variables and then make the best decison possible. Never did I bash NJA above I merely offered my opinion. I don't think it is a career, it is a job. I stick by what I said. Ask any JBLU or SWA or FEDEX or UPS drivers if theyd go to NJA. NJA guys on the other hand would leave to go to those places. What does that tell you?

 

[Ultra Grump]

Faulty numbers and questionable assumptions?

Yep.

Only work half the year? Let's see 7 on, 7 off with 14 hours of duty per day . 14*7=98 hours per tour times 2=196 hours of duty per month. A forty hour work-week=160 hours per month.

Nobody works 14-hour days every day, therefore "faulty numbers." If you do, I hope to never fly with you, because that speaks volumes about your judgement, or lack thereof.

...we also do many more RON;s than airline guys. So saying we work 10-12 hours a day is invalid and inaccurate.

This is a "questionable assumption."
I was at the airlines pre-NJA. How many RONs you had depended on which schedule you worked but the majority of lines were 4-on 3-off, or CDOs. If you were VERY senior you could hold 3-on 4-off. The average pilot had many more RONs than we do at NJA.

Even if you fly a 10 hour day you'll sit around an FBO for three more hours before they release you for yet another 10 hour turn. It is a slave shop.

While that may be true for you, it's not for most people I've talked to, and certainly not for me. One thing I noticed at the airline was the guys who always bitched about how scheduling was screwing them ended up getting screwed. Cause or effect? The same thing happens here. Maybe if you just did your job and didn't bitch so much, you might not get screwed so often.

You are saying it takes 5 to 10 years for a Major guy to get 17-18 off a month that is a lie to. Ask anyone here who has left for Jetblue or ask the above gentleman who is at AWA about that. I guarantee he has the option to bid his schedule as such to get 17 off after two years if he wants.

A) JetBlue is not a major. B) AWA just recently became one with the USAir merger. C) I haven't worked for either, and haven't researched their contracts, so can't comment on their schedules.

However, you might want to go ask around on the "Majors" board how the concessionary contracts they're working under have contributed to their ability to have 18 days off per month, and how senior they'd have to be to hold it. While you're at it, why don't you ask the USAir guys how many years seniority their most junior FO has. Or Delta. Or NWA. How about United? Again, "questionable assumptions."

 

[Hawker dude]

DO,

I respect your post and opinions. You have an open mind and I respect that. You are quick to highlight the positive and negative aspects of NJA. The problem is that some have a tendency to accentuate only the positive, or to elaborate. Many potential new-hires and job seekers read these boards. Most with families. They need to have an unbiased, unadulterated breakdown of the do's and dont's, the haves and the have nots of obtaining employment at NJA. They need to weight the variables and then make the best decison possible. Never did I bash NJA above I merely offered my opinion. I don't think it is a career, it is a job. I stick by what I said. Ask any JBLU or SWA or FEDEX or UPS drivers if theyd go to NJA. NJA guys on the other hand would leave to go to those places. What does that tell you?

Dude,

some people do think NJA is a career place. some things aren't great about it but what job is perfect? 7 days on are tough, but 7 days off are great. vacation is great. if you like your schedule you don't have to bid again. while at work, yes than can use 14 hours. like most airlines jobs, the FAA rule is 16 hours. Some people only have to work a max of 12. Not having to commute is awesome and for me makes all the other B.S. worth it.

Lets see SWA, you pay $7,000 for a job, you can only commute on one side. I've heard from guys that Jetblue and Airtran are the same, can only commute on one side. once all these company's right size the upgrades will slow just like the majors did. I guess if you get in at the right time it can be great, but in todays world no airline is safe.

Fed Ex does seem like a great career but, you have to know the right people to get in and some people don't have a sponsor and 3 internal recommendations. UPS first year pay sucks but, seems like a good company. they are in a huge battle with management right now. Of course if the government gets its way and lets foreign companys invade the market than US cargo companys might not be safe.

So, you make some OK points but still wondering what great company you work for? and how you now the where the best place to be is?

 

[buttercup]

Yep.


Nobody works 14-hour days every day, therefore "faulty numbers." If you do, I hope to never fly with you, because that speaks volumes about your judgement, or lack thereof.


This is a "questionable assumption."
I was at the airlines pre-NJA. How many RONs you had depended on which schedule you worked but the majority of lines were 4-on 3-off, or CDOs. If you were VERY senior you could hold 3-on 4-off. The average pilot had many more RONs than we do at NJA.

While that may be true for you, it's not for most people I've talked to, and certainly not for me. One thing I noticed at the airline was the guys who always bitched about how scheduling was screwing them ended up getting screwed. Cause or effect? I've noticed the same thing happening here. Maybe if you just did your job and didn't bitch so much, you might not get screwed so often.

A) JetBlue is not a major. B) AWA just recently became one with the USAir merger. C) I haven't worked for either, and haven't researched their contracts, so can't comment on their schedules.

However, you might want to go ask around on the "Majors" board how the concessionary contracts they're working under have contributed to their ability to have 18 days off per month, and how senior they'd have to be to hold it. While you're at it, why don't you ask the USAir guys how many years seniority their most junior FO has. Or Delta. Or NWA. How about United? Again, "questionable assumptions."

14 hours was used as a "common ground". The fact is when you are away from home that is work, I could have easily said you work 24 hours a day when on the road. It's obvious you lack self-worth drawing such an assumption. Here's a buck go buy some of it. And by the way which airline did you work for that made you work 4 on 3 off after 5 to 10 years of accrued seniority? Let me guess your current job is the best job you've ever had and you live in the middle of nowhere and you're just happy to be flying a jet.

 

[Ultra Grump]

14 hours was used as a "common ground". The fact is when you are away from home that is work, I could have easily said you work 24 hours a day when on the road. It's obvious you lack self-worth drawing such an assumption.

You specifically referenced 14 hours of duty. Now you're backpedaling, trying to equate that to "time away." Sorry, but they're not the same thing. And an overnight is an overnight, whether it's at an airline or at NJA. Still 24 hours away from home. If you can't back up your assumptions, just say so.

Here's a buck go buy some of it.

Cle-ver. You already used that one on someone else a ways back though. Try coming up with some new material.

And by the way which airline did you work for that made you work 4 on 3 off after 5 to 10 years of accrued seniority? Let me guess the is the best job you've ever had.

Interesting. Called me a tool, then edited the post. Hello, Pot? Meet Kettle.

Stop with the name calling playboy.

This to Hawker Dude.

 

[buttercup]

You specifically referenced 14 hours of duty. Now you're backpedaling, trying to equate that to "time away." Sorry, but they're not the same thing. And an overnight is an overnight, whether it's at an airline or at NJA. Still 24 hours away from home. If you can't back up your assumptions, just say so.

Cle-ver. You already used that one on someone else a ways back though. Try coming up with some new material.

Interesting. Called me a tool, then edited the post. Hello, Pot? Meet Kettle.This to Hawker Dude.

Look you aren't worth my time I bet you probably flew for a regional and live in the sticks so now you're in heaven. So now the fact that you dont have to commute but new hires will (You probably voted yes on that) doesnt phase you because fu*k it you got yours who cares about them. Guess what bigshot that will come back to haunt you in the future when most domicile based guys will be thrown an extra 15k or so a year for being based there while HBA's are eliminated. By the way I hope you are a little more tactful with those you fly. Lets see how accurate I am just to summarize !. You live in an HBA 2. This is the best job youve ever had 3.You flew for a regional or were furloughed and are gunshy now and dont have enough heart to get back up and try again after getting koncked down. I'm waiting...

 

[Ultra Grump]

Look you aren't worth my time...

Apparently I am...

I bet you probably flew for a regional and live in the sticks so now you're in heaven. So now the fact that you dont have to commute but new hires will (You probably voted yes on that) doesnt phase you because fu*k it you got yours who cares about them. Guess what bigshot that will come back to haunt you in the future when most domicile based guys will be thrown an extra 15k or so a year for being based there while HBA's are eliminated. By the way I hope you are a little more tactful with those you fly.

I voted yes, on the whole package. Tactful? Because I called you out for being a whiner? If the shoe fits...

Lets see how accurate I am just to summarize !. You live in an HBA 2. This is the best job youve ever had 3.You flew for a regional or were furloughed and are gunshy now and dont have enough heart to get back up and try again after getting koncked down. I'm waiting...

1 out of 3 ain't bad. Okay, yes it is...

If it's so bad, why exactly are you at NJA? Let's see how accurate I am: 1) This is the only flying job you've ever had, excluding flying for mommy and daddy's business. 2) You've always wanted to go to a "major," but can't even measure up to JetBlue. 3) You're just generally pissed off at the world (because apparently it owes you something), and a real joy to be around. Close?

 

[DO-82 driver]

214....you said that NJA is not a career but rather is a job....OK, you're entitled to thatn opinion......what would, in your opinion, constitute a CAREER?

Is it the size of the a/c?
Type of Regs you work under?
Route structure
Company net worth?
the ability to include a hat as part of your uniform?

I would ask the several hundred furloughed airline guys here what they think about NJA being only a job......many of them thought they had CAREERS until they were furloughed

 

[buttercup]

214....you said that NJA is not a career but rather is a job....OK, you're entitled to thatn opinion......what would, in your opinion, constitute a CAREER?

Is it the size of the a/c?
Type of Regs you work under?
Route structure
Company net worth?
the ability to include a hat as part of your uniform?

I would ask the several hundred furloughed airline guys here what they think about NJA being only a job......many of them thought they had CAREERS until they were furloughed

Career= Stock options(see Jblu). discounted stock purchase program(swa), retirement not just 401K(see FedEx/UPS) and ability to make over 200K(The benchmark for what 100K was 10 years ago). And yes this is broad based throughout the aviation industry ,there are very few career positions in aviation anymore most are just jobs.

 

[buttercup]

If it's so bad, why exactly are you at NJA? Let's see how accurate I am: 1) This is the only flying job you've ever had, excluding flying for mommy and daddy's business. 2) You've always wanted to go to a "major," but can't even measure up to JetBlue. 3) You're just generally pissed off at the world (because apparently it owes you something), and a real joy to be around. Close?

You are 0-3 better luck next time.
Never said it was bad just said its not the best, it's better than a commuter but not in the same league as a Major. See that gentleman X-rated post. He is at AWA one of the lesser of the Majors and he still said it is head and shoulders above a fractional racket. As for being here if aviation was the only thing I knew and was my sole source of income I wouldnt be here. Id be at a Major or flying for a Fortune 500 company out of Teb or Hpn or ISP( I was already offered a job in TEB and declined). I have my own company now and the sense of satisfaction and financial viability is second to none. I enjoy flying professionally but the most fun I ever had flying was flying a 172 into grass strips. I love the work I do in my business because it's mine and I do it on my terms. To answer your question Im here now because I am growing my business and NJA allows me to have the time off to give my clients the attention they need and deserve. I wont be flying professionally much longer but just know that while everyone was flying SAFELY and PROFESSIONALLY i was doing it more focused than most because I care about those here even though i knewI wouldnt be here probably more than another year or two. As for being pleasant to be around that depends. I was never the type to tell people what they wanted to hear, but I am very close with my closest childhood friends to this day and they like being around me. So does my family. Beyond that I could really give a sh*t less.

 

[Seat 0A]

I know a couple days have gone by since I posted the following, but it is a truthful account. Seems that even if you lead some folks to the watering hole you will never be able to make them drink. Some will distort the negatives to the extent necessary to make their argument while overlooking ACTUAL DATA provided by someone on the inside.


Oh well, here it is again, pay close attention to things like length of duty day, length of overnight and actual days worked vs. days AT HOME.......


Here’s another slant on NJA from the perspective of an actual NJA pilot:

I DO NOT commute. I fly from home. My travel is company paid positive space travel and I keep the airline miles. This also means that my first and last days involve very little work. I have elite status on 4 carriers and ride First Class often (remember that I am on duty at this point as well).

We are briefed no later than 7pm the night before day-1 and it cannot change and we cannot be contacted.

I have 3 weeks vacation per year (which is really 9 weeks). I also have 3 weeks of paid training per year so now I am down to “working” 20 tours per year. I could knock this down to 18 tours by using up my sick leave each year.

Now, if you take 18 weeks and conservatively figure 6 days per tour of work (one day less than 7 due to airlines on day-1 and day-7). This is a fair comparison because the airline guys are not counting their commuting days only the duty days.

That equals 108 days of line flying per year or 9 days per month. How does that compare to airlines? Oh yeah, I have 4 weeks vacation at year 10 (actually 12 weeks) that will drop it down even more.

I have never flown more than 450 hours a year here in 6 years.

I am NEVER away from home on my “off” days like many 121 guys are (commuting). If they don’t get me home by the end of my last scheduled day then the economic penalty to the company makes for a VERY nice Xmas at my house. I also “comp off” those hours returned home late from the beginning of my next tour.

Base pay in the neighborhood of $100k at year 5.
If you are young you can look forward to a base pay of $200k (or $240k in the BBJ). I am currently earning another 15-20% over base pay with “normal” overtime. I DO NOT volunteer for any extra but it is there if you want it. Also I AM NOT on the reserve payscale which is a fair amount better.

401k 50% match, insurance fully paid by company, around $8k tax free per-diem in your pocket each year (we don’t buy food here).

We DO NOT stay in Hotels less than Hilton quality and we keep the hotel points too.

10 hours minimum rest begins upon arrival at the HOTEL. Normally it is between 12-16 hours.

We have actual BRIEFED rest. If they shut us down at 4pm today and brief us (yes, they have to brief us before shutdown) for a Noon show tomorrow they CANNOT touch us until Noon tomorrow, no phone calls, etc.

An average day for me is 3-4 legs, 4-5 flight hours, 9-11 duty hours.
Payscales at NJA and the majors are growing towards each other at a fast rate.



Here's the tour I just returned from:

Day1: Airline only, go to hotel (started at 0445L today), 10.5 hours rest
Day2: 3 legs, 9 hours duty, 13 hours rest
Day3: 4 legs, 10.5 hours duty, 14.25 rest
Day4: 1 leg, 10 hours duty, 11 hours rest
Day5: 5 legs, 14 hours duty, 12 hours rest
Day6: 4 legs, 12.25 hours duty, 16 hours rest
Day7: 4 legs, 12.5 hours duty (7.2 hours flight today---the most in one day this tour) and then ferry to my home base and in my house at 2000L.

For the year 2005 I was on duty (including training) for 161 days. I only had 2 weeks vacation last year. I used some sick days to knock out one tour. Of the 161 days I did not fly for 43 of them (training, airline only, etc.). This has me flying the line for 118 days or 9.83 days per month. Pretty close to my example above.

Hey, even if you guys want to figure all 161 of my work days into the discussion, that is still only 13.4 days per month for ALL of my obligations away from home. That works out to about 16.6 days off and actually at home each month.

Again, lets remember that many of the airline folks that may only work 11 or 12 days per month are still doing some travel on THEIR time. Not me.

 

[DO-82 driver]

Most airline guys are flying more than me per month, and I'm in the XL!!!!! If you figure out what they make per month and divide it by the amount of time they spend at work or comutting to and from work I bet you'll find many people at NJA are doing pretty damn well.

Its not all about hard $$$$$.....

 

[netjetwife]

How frustrating to be told by a few that you don't have a career, just a job. There are a few others who say that the NJ pilots are greedy.
It appears that those opinions are coming from the fringe element. Other pilots are applying, the sims are full, and many from NJ have been thanked for raising the bar in the industry. That's a lot of activity/discussion centered around a flying position.

Those who work at "jobs" don't have specialized skills, and they can be replaced quickly with a worker off the street. Career positions require extensive training and experience. Given the number of questions I have read in this forum asking if the mins at NJA are firm, I rather think that settles the issue. Pilots are professionals--period--and as such, they have careers, not jobs. They aren't at fault if it takes some employers longer than others to accept that fact and compensate them accordingly. It's not the uniform that makes the pilot.

Those who seek to improve conditions at the company of their choice are to be respected for upholding professional standards.
Having a career is normal. Fighting for it is much more impressive. Best of luck to those willing to make a stand.
NJW

 

[Ultra Grump]

as214 - Apparently I've wasted my time debating this issue with you. It is impossible to have a meaningful debate if you keep changing your story with each post.

As for being here if aviation was the only thing I knew and was my sole source of income I wouldnt be here. Id be at a Major or flying for a Fortune 500 company... To answer your question Im here now because I am growing my business and NJA allows me to have the time off to give my clients the attention they need and deserve.

Even in their current state a major airline guy with accrued seniority will get 17-18 days off per month.

I guarantee he has the option to bid his schedule as such to get 17 off after two years if he wants.

If you could get so much time off at a major, and you could be at a major if you wanted to, why aren't you there? Which is it - would a major give you more time off, or NJA?

Nevermind, don't bother answering. I don't really care, and I'm not sure I'd get a straight answer anyway. I've wasted enough time on this with you already.

 

[Hawker dude]

If it's so bad, why exactly are you at NJA? Let's see how accurate I am: 1) This is the only flying job you've ever had, excluding flying for mommy and daddy's business. 2) You've always wanted to go to a "major," but can't even measure up to JetBlue. 3) You're just generally pissed off at the world (because apparently it owes you something), and a real joy to be around. Close?

You are 0-3 better luck next time.
Never said it was bad just said its not the best, it's better than a commuter but not in the same league as a Major. See that gentleman X-rated post. He is at AWA one of the lesser of the Majors and he still said it is head and shoulders above a fractional racket. As for being here if aviation was the only thing I knew and was my sole source of income I wouldnt be here. Id be at a Major or flying for a Fortune 500 company out of Teb or Hpn or ISP( I was already offered a job in TEB and declined). I have my own company now and the sense of satisfaction and financial viability is second to none. I enjoy flying professionally but the most fun I ever had flying was flying a 172 into grass strips. I love the work I do in my business because it's mine and I do it on my terms. To answer your question Im here now because I am growing my business and NJA allows me to have the time off to give my clients the attention they need and deserve. I wont be flying professionally much longer but just know that while everyone was flying SAFELY and PROFESSIONALLY i was doing it more focused than most because I care about those here even though i knewI wouldnt be here probably more than another year or two. As for being pleasant to be around that depends. I was never the type to tell people what they wanted to hear, but I am very close with my closest childhood friends to this day and they like being around me. So does my family. Beyond that I could really give a sh*t less.

Great, not even a real pilot. Just some dork with an opinion. Question, why are you such an a#$hole? and if you are so rich what the h$% are you doing on this board? Idiot.

 

[Hogprint]

Correction!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Everyone throttle back on 214...he just likes to come over from the Corp board and do some NJA bashing for sport! For some reason he's had an axe to grind with us for some time.

I see you and other Corp guys make the point that there are better Corp jobs out there with better bennies and moola. quote]

Thats funny.... I read 214's posts on our board all the time. What Corporation do we let on the IBT message board?

Cease fire! Misfire on my part. Got him confused with H25B. He does some drive by shootings from the corp. Damn, I gotta quit drink'n and typ'n....

 

[gunfyter]

Cease fire! Misfire on my part. Got him confused with H25B. He does some drive by shootings from the corp. dang, I gotta quit drink'n and typ'n....

I think you just hit 214 with the lowest blow he coud take... Don't know how he will recover from being mistaken for h25B... LOL

 

[SCT]

"Great, not even a real pilot. Just some dork with an opinion." HD

Wow, who else fits this statement around here?

 

[FLYLOW22]

Even in their current state a major airline guy with accrued seniority will get 17-18 days off per month. Apples to oranges.

Oh yeah... how much of that 17-18 is spent commuting for most 121 guys? Hmmmmm.

Nectarines to peaches.