Iraq: The 51st State

[SennaP1]

No more talk of "going" to war, we are too close and already at it (IMO). Interesting article I read here's the link
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/11/fallows.htm

This has been my worry from the beginning, I hope this war proves to be a "domino theory" of Democracy in the Middle East. How reasonable is that? It is clear that the Middle East is the "hot spot" just like Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia have been in the past. Both of those regions have seemed to stabilize.

I support the men and women of the US Forces but in no way do I support their Commander in Chief, not at all. WE (the USA) also have an economic interest in Iraq just like France. The only difference is that ours is post war. Who is going to rebuild Iraq? the US no doubt. Who is going to rebuild the bridges we have to destroy, US Companies. I guess if that is President Bush's economic stimulus plan so be it, he is the boss. We'll see what he has to say tonight. I just wished he could've picked a better night (other than St. Pats) to make a speech.

Back to flying..

 

[Cardinal]

Drop the price of oil $1 per Barrel and you can buy a heck of a lot of bridges.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

YOU ARE A SIMPLE MINDED IDIOT.



NUFFSAID.

 

[350DRIVER]

"W" is a piece of work, 2004 he is gone so I hope ya'll enjoy him now. I am just glad that France, Canada and many others have refused to support Bush- he doesn't deserve the support since this war is not justified. I guess if we continue to buy French products, etc, we will be speaking out as well.

The speech was also a joke as well.. Wdumbya has no evidence at all against Iraq.


3 5 0

 

[Chas]

Yeh right??

with idiots like Joe Lieberman running Bush is a shoe in...

 

[SennaP1]

Thanks for the enlightenment AFellowAviator......Wow.

I am not against war, nor President Bush really, but I do have a right to disagree with him. Do I not? Yes the French aren't supporting us, do we really need them for a war? No, I think we can do without. The Germans aren't supporting us either and how about the Russians? But I am not getting a bunch of dumb forwarded emails bashing the Russians or the Germans. So no more OktoberFest huh? Maybe we should call it FreedomFest.

Anyways, no more talk about G.W. Bush or the War from me. Its happening and hopefully it will be quick. I hope we follow the "Powell Doctrine" because "war is hell" .

Back to Aviation.

 

[Cardinal]

I think he might have been reffering to me as a "simple minded idiot." He is very likely correct. Be that as it may, allow me to justify myself. The original poster and his link refer to the economic impact of a potential invasion of Iraq. While I find it unlikely that US firms would receive the lions share of reconstruction dollars, Senna suggested it. Anticipating an intelligent rebuttal from the leftists (e.g., "only foreign companies will get reconstruction work, thus placing a drag on the US economy") I thus made the rationalization that the benefits of lower, stable oil prices and reduced terror threat would far outweigh such costs. Unfortunately, there was no intelligent rebuttal. Alas, our FELLOWAVIATOR defaults to the liberal emergency backup plan: In the absence of justification, in the absence of logic, and when all else has failed, just call 'em names.

 

[Eagleflip]

Moderator Warning

Please keep the commentary relatively civil or the thread will be edited further.

Thanks.

 

[Snakum]

I guess if that is President Bush's economic stimulus plan so be it,

I knew he just HAD to have an Economic plan. No one could be that dense. I just never could figure out what is was.

Who coined the following phrase ... "It's the Economy Stoopid!" ?

Minh "Tree-Hugger" Thong
(Proud US Army Veteran)

 

[flywithastick]

what's behind anti-conservatism?

You know what's truly amazing? It's the number insecure, intellectually insincere people all over the world who find it trendy to bash conservatism and Bush. Anyone who denies the guy's optimistic visions, realistic actions and dedication to supporting the US Constitution is sadly and totally delusional. Clinton never said a thing out of sincerity or with the US's best interest in mind, yet the intellectually poor people of the world flocked to him like bugs to a light. Why?! Because of peer pressure, being insecure about their own intellect and laziness. They feel the need to look smart in front of their friends, so they bash conservatism as being uncaring and harsh - peer pressure. They bash the United States and our systems because it's easier than coming up with something better - laziness. They want to look intelligent with their tea-sipping, myopic leftist peers because they are insecure with their existence in the successful US society.

I've yet to hear one come up with a better plan for the economy or to deal with fanatical Muslums. They live in a fantasy world trying to one-up each other with illogical criticisms of Bush and conservatives, just becasue it seems like the thing they should be doing to look intelligent.

Happy flying!

 

[350DRIVER]

Anyone who denies the guy's optimistic visions, realistic actions and dedication to supporting the US Constitution is sadly and totally delusional.

Ignorance is bliss. I think "we" just tend to live in reality and are not able to be brain washed as some are. (food for thought) I always find it quite funny when someone is so caught up in propaganda, lies, and deception that they actually (in reality) believe it to be true themselves.

3 5 0

 

[SennaP1]

Dear Mr. Saab

No I would not spit on our troops, in fact I would never spit on anybody. If you notice I have never called President Bush anything but that. I respect a man that is the President of the United States, I have even met him and shook his hand, a nice gentleman. But I do have the right not to agree with him and not support him on this (just this, notice I didn't say anything else). So while others are calling him names I call him by his name, and what he is, I have never posted anything on here calling him DumbYa, or idiot, or whatever else you can come up with.

So there is really no need to swear and cuss at me. I started this post to get us thinking about post-war, which I think you will agree will be better. At least for aviation, would you agree that war will be bad for the aviation industry.

Keepin' it Civil.

 

[chawbein]

Ignorance is bliss. I think "we" just tend to live in reality and are not able to be brain washed as some are. (food for thought) I always find it quite funny when someone is so caught up in propaganda, lies, and deception that they actually (in reality) believe it to be true themselves.

I suppose you are going to purport that you are "more informed" than the rest of us because you have satellite television and you can watch the BBC and Al Jazeera. Please feel free to enlighten us with the truth. I for one, would be happy to read it.

 

[SF3CAP]

Good post, Senna. At least you're using your brain instead of just going along with the rest of the mob.

Spending all of our tax money attempting to "democratize" the middle east (post-Saddam) seems like a GIANT waste of money to me. Think of what good we could do with that money if we kept it here.

 

[Snakum]

AFellow and Saab - this is supposed to be a rational discussion among mature, college-educated professionals on both sides of an issue. Please act like it.

Minh

 

[flywithastick]

Re: Defending the Constitution?

It has nothing to do with public opinion.

Fortunately, Bush does care less about public opinion than all the leftists bashing his efforts.

He wouldn't care if his approval rating were 23%. He'd still be heading to Iraq and pushing a $400 billion deficit.

Ain't it great! A man with a soul and convictions! A concept that many have a hard time understanding. You understand?

I guess I, as well, am against the troops because I think GWB is a bit of an idiot, right?

"against the troops". do you mean you don't support them fighting in Iraq or are you just against them in general? You can not support military action in Iraq. But do it with some substance and logic. I have heard no logical argument against the impending action yet. you got something logical - I'm listening.

Do I hate you just because I hate your father?

Not sure I understand how this fits into the discussion. If you can, think about what you're writing a little more before you respond so you can be understood. But I'd have to say you're relating to something said by a 21st century leftist - "I hate you because you're conservative."

BTW, I agree with quite a bit of your points 1, 2 & 3.

 

[maniacmatt]

Do I hate you just because I hate your father?

Not all that hard, flywithastick. Same as saying "Do I hate the troops just because I hate Bush?" He was comparing it to a more understandable situation.

you got something logical - I'm listening.

How about this? Three letters...O I L. As I see it theres no other reason for this "war" in Iraq. If we cared oh-so-much and were so lovey-dovey about "liberating the Iraqi people"...why would one of Bush's main speech points be

"Do not destroy oil wells, a source of wealth that belongs to the Iraqi people."?

Iraqi people...sure. We'll see how much they prosper off of that oil we're clammoring to get our hands on. IMO, he might as well have added "So we can be sure to have those secure and ready for funneling straight to the U.S."

If all we really cared about was removing this terrible dictator and liberating Iraq...why would we be so concerned about preserving oil wells? My answer: Thats the whole stinking reason we're there.

 

[list2002]

Gestapo... yes...

 

[chawbein]

O I L

Ahhh, Yes. The reason that El Presidente asked the Iraqis not to destroy the oil wells is because...? Anyone? Anyone? The what Process? The Re-what Process? The Rebuilding Process.

Do you really think that the rebuilding of Iraq is going to be paid for with US tax dollars? I think not. It will be financed BY THE IRAQIS with oil dollars from MANY countries throughout the world. To say oil is the only reason to go to war is nothing more than conspiracy-theory claptrap.

The Iraqis will see just as much money from their oil wells as the Saudis and Kuwaitis.

 

[Cardinal]

I have no problem with a war for oil. In fact it's always amused me when I see a car drive by with a "No War for Oil" sticker on the back. Who are they kidding? Oil is a strategic mineral, always has been. Unfortuately, we've always found ourselves importing it. Through good fortune the US found uranium within it's borders, another strategic mineral. Do you think that we would have blinked twice if we had to invade Mexico to secure a supply of uranium, and this win the Cold War? I think not. A reliable supply of oil is as vital to the health of this country as the supply of food. (Think it isn't? Stop the trucks and see how long it takes for New York or LA to starve). Further, the warning to the Iraqi's was a sound one. Besides destroying that source of wealth, they would likely kill hundreds, if not thousands, of their own people who may suffer from respiratory ailments, and turn their homes into an environmental nightmare. It's good to give them pause.

I burn 700 gallons of kerosene through a typical day's work, and that's downright miserly - my father burns 10000 gallons on a typical day's jaunt. Our livelihood depends on the black stuff. A war for oil? More power to 'em.

 

[knelson]

Here's a great idea for all you Bush-bashers: why don't we "give peace a chance" and not go to war?

It's all a fairytale world with rainbows and unicorns until a man named Sadam Hussein, directly associated with the most hateful and grave disregard for American and human life produces weapons of mass-destruction with the target placed directly over our heads, and drops a load of nerve gas over our urban populations. But until we actually see that happen, we can't defend ourselves? Doesn't make much sense to me. We are doing the right thing, like it or not. I am glad we are here to make a counter-attack. That's right, it is a counter-attack. Have you all-too-soon forgotton what happened on September 11, 2001? Whether you care to see the correlation between what happened that day or not, Osama Bin Laden and Sadam have the same plan for us. We just happen to be taking these steps in a seperate manner to rid the world of these two people in a campaign to take back what is rightfully ours. . . Peace.

I think there is nothing worse than a spineless coward that does not have the self-respect and dignity to stand up and fight for what he believes is right. Peace is right. We are on our way to peace. It is just going to take some brave, selfless men and women to stand up and fight for peace. I don't want to live in a world where I have to worry about someone launching a nuke into my back yard. I don't want to live in fear of someone dropping some chemical in my city's water supply to wipe us out. I want to live in a world where the people that believe we have a right to go on about our normal God-fearing lifestyle without looking over our shoulder to see how many nukes are aimed at my city park will stand up and say enough is enough. The time is now. You are either with us or aginst us. That has been made clear. And on that note, we don't need a note from France, Germany, or Russia telling us it's okay to protect ourselves. Incidently, I don't think we want France's help anyway, look at their record over the last 100 years: WW1, WW2, the French/Indo-China war. . . looks like 0-3 in my book. No thanks boys, go ahead and sit this one out. Don't forget about all that Aid either, I have a feeling it may be a while before you see any of that again in the near future. You may want to look for a little new marketing strategy on your export industry too, shipments to the USA may be down over the next few years.

Thanks Japan, thank you England, thanks Australlia, and thank you freedom-loving Americans. I am sure our troops and leaders appreciate your support more than you know.

So go on, flame me all you want. But know that I am a proud American that supports our efforts and enjoys the freedom I have to voice my opinions and my concerns, and know that I will be anxiously awaiting the safe return of our soldiers to our great land, where we are still the land of the FREE and the home of the BRAVE!

 

[wil]

Let's not forget 8 years of inattention by an "Intellectual" who was easily distracted by a slab of pizza and a chunky intern in a thong!

 

[flywithastick]

Re: yo

Not a one of us is any safer today than we were in 9/11.

Let me offer a perspective from another industry. things are somewhat safer in the refineries. Before Sept, '01, you could walk into a refinery wearing a hard hat and Nomex and may well not be given a second look. Since then , we've "hardened" the fence line somewhat (barricades), installed lots of additional fences and cameras. It might allow us to know if someone was breaking in do do something bad.

but there's still a tremendous vulnerability to RPG's or even something like a deer rifle being fired from the nearby roads and highways.

How about we fix the cracks instead of restricting movement! Wouldn't that help a bit?

agreed totally. Let's do some serious rethinking of border security. Like bringing the tens of thousands of soldiers home from Japan, Korea, Germany and post them along the border. Now that'd be a positive step.

Let's not fool anyone here. The North Koreans are just as nasty as Hussein. However, they are no pushover with 975,000 standing troops and they have NO OIL. Oh yeah, they have the Chinese on their side. Let's not pretend we are fighting the best fight right now. It's just cliche to bomb the Iraqis. Let's bomb NK, huh? I'm all for that. Bring it on...

I am with your here. The ChiComs have me nervous though. Almost as unpredictable as the NK's (re. taking our P-3 crew hostage and threatening to nuke LA a couple of years ago). I have no idea what would be best in NK. We invade, the NK army would be easy pickens (fighting as a conventional military force). But the ChiComs might get involved - *that* would be a problem.

 

[Snakum]

Let's not fool anyone here. The North Koreans are just as nasty as Hussein. However, they are no pushover with 975,000 standing troops and they have NO OIL.

Eggsakery!

Let's stick to pushing around the little guys who have something we need. We don't wanna start sh!t with a country which has the will and military might to reach our own shores. Not when they don't really have anything worth taking. What the he!! would we do with a couple million water buffalos and a bunch of kimchee? Have a beach party?

Minh Thong
(A proud and patriotic American Veteran who is severely disappointed with his President right now.)

 

[flywithastick]

What the he!! would we do with a couple million water buffalos and a bunch of kimchee? Have a beach party?

I'm contradicting myself, but what would be so bad about pulling our troops out of SK and bringing them home to protect the borders? let the SK's and NK's have each other. Would they then export weapons to whackos like Al Queda? They'd probably sell them! Would be nice if the chinks would just annex NK.

 

[Snakum]

what would be so bad about pulling our troops out of SK and bringing them home to protect the borders?

I agree. The majority of South Koreans don't want us there, according to polls conducted by Korean publications. I don't understand why we don't just bring the 2nd ID home. Perhaps it has something to do with our economic and military alliance/obligation with Japan. Also, I guess if NK goes 'nutter' again we need the 'Speedbump' there to buy time for the 1st Cav to get in position. I'd still prefer to have the 2nd ID and all the VII Corp troops from Europe back home. I'm not an isolationist but it appears now is the time to worry a little more about our own back yard.

Minh

 

[chawbein]

I disagree.

The borders can be closed down effectively without troops being stationed there. The troops are stationed abroad in order for the US to project power. It is far easier to project power to North Korea when you have bases set up in South Korea and Japan than to try to project power from 8,000 miles away in California. The agents who watch the border now would have a much easier time if they didn't have to deal with the massive amounts of illegal immigrants coming up from Mexico. Enforce the laws in this country and start booting illegals out, you will see a decline in the number of illegals in the ole' USA and those crossing the border. I'm not so worried about Canada, the 9/11 hijackers came through a border checkpoint. They were allowed to come through because they had forged documents. That was just a flaw in the system.

Stationing troops along the border is the same feel-good nonsense that brought about the TSA.

Just my $.02....