IR checkride questions

[flyboy]

Yeah, it can be frustrating to find that the standard that we've always been taught is not always the best way to do things. I just came through a CFI academy at American Flyers and was shocked to learn that a lot of my prior information that I was taught was either wrong or incomplete. Students should learn early that they should question everything they hear and half of what they see.

 

[avbug]

That's news to me. I don't double, triple, or do anything to correction outbound, ever. I've never heard it, never done, it , never taught it, and never had a problem. Sounds like some folks practice it, but it's never come up on a practical, interview, sim check, proficiency check, or any other check.

Then again, the last time I got a hold in real life was some time around 1988.

 

[SennaP1]

Thanks for all the input I'm copying and pasting as we speak and going to give them a try on my students.

Thanks again..

One more thing...

I use Jepps, and I had no idea what are those dashed rings around airports on NOS Charts that say" Feeder and Enroute Facilities"

 

[avbug]

Senna,

The facilities rings are not to scale, and are just used to give a general representation as to where feeder facilities and enroute facilities are in relation to the proceedure. It's just a reference, and facilities associated with the proceedure that would be too far out to be charted, are placed on these rings. Thus, a VOR that serves to feed a NoPt route to the IAF might be 50 miles away. Too far too chart. But it's northeast, and that's where it will appear on the feder facilities ring. For a better picture, you need to also refer to the low altitude enrotue chart.

A side note, don't mix jepp low altitude enroute and government plates, if you can help it. It can be done, but it can also lead to some confusion.

 

[jdog78]

required reports

I think all examiners have their pet topics. My examiner's favorite question was regarding required reports and when the pilot must report to ATC. He sat back like a quiet kitty while i rattled off everything I had learned in ground school and from independent study, then viciously pounced as soon as i finished spewing information. It became clear to me that I was not his first victim as he opened his FAR/AIM to highlighted passages in both the FAR and AIM sections. I was in such a state of shock I'm sure I didn't comprehend everything in his tirade. The gist of it was...there is a difference between "should," "shall," and "must." Jeppesen, ASA, etc., ambiguously teach required reports as a must, using both "must" and "should." In reality, the 10 or so "required reports" are actually not required and you may make these reports only if you feel like it. The required required reports are only three and are listed in 91.183. AIM 5-3-3 lists required reports and as we all know, the AIM is not regulatory.
In the end, I passed the exam, but I was a mess by the end. I didn't really understand why he made such a fuss about something like that.

 

[bobbysamd]

Required v. Recommended

The examiner is correct, but most people I've known have considered the AIM to be quasi-regulatory. You know, if Uncle Sam and the FAA take the time to produce it, it must have things they want you to do, right? That was always my approach and my CFI colleagues took the same approach. To my recollection, I never had Instrument students bullied on that issue.

You're FSI meat, aren't you? I'd appreciate a private on which examiner, to see if it is one I knew and didn't like.

 

[FlyinBrian]

outbound vs. inbound correction

You need to double or triple your outbound wind correction to compensate for the change in your turn radius as a function of groundspeed. When doing this, you will not be flying a perfect racetrack pattern, which is OK.

Holding the same WCA outbound as you did inbound would cause you to parallel your inbound course. However, when you start your standard rate turn back inbound, the wind that was fomerly at your side is now at your back, increasing your GS, and widening your turn (compared to the turn in which you were flying upwind.) In this scenario, you will either blow through the inbound course onto the unprotected side of the hold, or you will have to increase your bank angle well beyond standard rate to sufficiently tighten the turn and roll out on course.

It is much easier to explain when you draw it out.

By the way, I actually really liked the question above:
If your're 15 miles from the station with 1 dot deflection, how far from the station are you? That may actually trip some people up.

-FB

 

[Timebuilder]

Good explanation, Brian.

Yes, you'd still be 15 miles from the station. I guess "trick" questions are fair game.

 

[avbug]

It makes sense, but much like typical ADF proceedures (which resemble some bizarre algebraec formula), it's too much headwork when flying. I've never done that, and never had a problem.

If I'm holding a bit of correction one way or the other, I hold it and perhaps a bit more. How much? A bit. If it's a lot of correction, I'll hold a lot, plus a bit.

What really counts is turning in bound and intercepting the course. As wind is a variable anyway, and during the hold we're not flying a precise ground track, it's largely all guestimation anyway. If the needle comes in faster, increase the rate of turn to intercept. If I'm farther out on the outbound leg and the needle doesn't come in as fast, slow down the rate of turn. Fudge for success.

Too much math.

 

[bobbysamd]

Holding

I agree with Brian. Try it sometime in the sim. Crank up some good crosswinds and try doubling or tripling your outbound correction. Then, take a look at the paper trace to see how it works.

Anyone for time and distance to station? Is that still taught and/or tested? I never had an instrument student tested on time to station.

 

[FlyinBrian]

I'm actually with you on the practical side of it avbug...
But it helps your guesstimation if you know that you'll have to hold more correction outbound then inbound. incidentally, it doesn't matter what direction the wind is coming from, you still correct more when you're outbound. This is an easy question that can trip you up if you don't fully understand the concept.

 

[Timebuilder]

Agreed, Brian.

My most challenging holding happened during my instrument training on a windy night in a 172. I flew the hold for almost 1/2 an hour, and had a 12 degree inbound correction and a 36 degree outbound correction when I was through.

I never had any trouble with holding after that.