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Interesting scope article
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Superpilot92
LONGCALL KING
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US pilot scope: Here to stay?
By Lori Ranson
While the economics of operating 50-seat jets has put those aircraft at a disadvantage to larger 70 and 90-seat aircraft, the fundamentals of their emergence late in the last decade remain intact: namely US pilot scope clauses.
Scope caps the number of regional jets operated by carriers on behalf of their partners, and also limits the number of seats per aircraft. United, Delta, Northwest and US Airways all got some relief on the 50-seat cap during their respective stints in Chapter 11 during the early 2000s. But American and Continental are still largely constrained to operating 50-seat aircraft.
As Bombardier works to secure orders for its 100-seat CRJ1000 and CSeries aircraft and Embraer’s orderbook tilts towards the larger end of its 170/190 E-Jet family, it appears that aircraft with roughly 76-to 86-seats are becoming the new dividing point between regional and mainline aircraft. A few regional carriers operate aircraft in the 86-seat range, but most of the larger regional jets are constrained to the 76-seat category.
Some airline executives are taking a sober view of any further loosening of scope restrictions as Delta Connection senior vice president Don Bornhorst recently told Regional Airline Association convention attendees he was not optimistic about scope relief for Delta or the industry. He predicts the CSeries and E-195 are destined to become mainline aircraft.
United seems less cynical than Delta as it begins contract talks with its pilots. Through its four-year restructuring that ended in 2006 United ultimately struck a deal with pilots that currently allows for an unlimited number of 70-seat jets with an 80,000lb weight limit. Certain limitations are associated with that somewhat unfettered access including fewer regional block hours than mainline. There are also some restrictions on nonstop 70-plus seat operations between United hubs and specific larger markets such as New York and Washington, DC, unless those operations are cost-effective, according to data from F&H Solutions Group.
Carrier vice president operations and planning for United Express Cindy Szadokierski told convention attendees that in current pilot contract talks “obviously scope is an issue we need to work our way through. In this environment with capacity reductions we see opportunities on both sides to move forward and meet both our needs”.
While acknowledging the challenge of predicting with any clarity the outcome of those labour talks Bombardier Commercial Aircraft president Gary Scott does offer that he “has no doubt majors would like to increase the number and size of aircraft they operate in those [regional environments]. Both small CSeries and larger CRJs would fill the requirement should scope be relaxed”.
But mainline pilot resistance to scope remains steadfast as evidenced by the roughly 32-month long contract talks between American Airlines and its pilots.
Seeking to get on a level footing with its US mainline counterparts American aims to secure relief to operate 76-seat jets with a maximum takeoff weight of 89,000lbs. In a recent round of negotiations with pilots American management compared the 25 single-class CRJ700s flown by its subsidiary American Eagle to 209 larger 70-plus seat regional jets flown by Delta Connection carriers, with 149 of those aircraft featuring a two-class configuration. United, says American, operates 112 larger regional jets configured with a two-class offering.
American pilots scoffed at the presentation, dismissing it as a “pitch for APA [the Allied Pilots Association] to allow a scope exception permitting Eagle to fly a 76-seat Embraer in a two-class configuration”.
The reaction by American pilots appears to be consistent with a theory posed by industry analyst Michael Boyd to attendees at the RAA convention that US pilots are “adamant” of not letting go of scope and “not loosening those strings”.
By Lori Ranson
While the economics of operating 50-seat jets has put those aircraft at a disadvantage to larger 70 and 90-seat aircraft, the fundamentals of their emergence late in the last decade remain intact: namely US pilot scope clauses.
Scope caps the number of regional jets operated by carriers on behalf of their partners, and also limits the number of seats per aircraft. United, Delta, Northwest and US Airways all got some relief on the 50-seat cap during their respective stints in Chapter 11 during the early 2000s. But American and Continental are still largely constrained to operating 50-seat aircraft.
As Bombardier works to secure orders for its 100-seat CRJ1000 and CSeries aircraft and Embraer’s orderbook tilts towards the larger end of its 170/190 E-Jet family, it appears that aircraft with roughly 76-to 86-seats are becoming the new dividing point between regional and mainline aircraft. A few regional carriers operate aircraft in the 86-seat range, but most of the larger regional jets are constrained to the 76-seat category.
Some airline executives are taking a sober view of any further loosening of scope restrictions as Delta Connection senior vice president Don Bornhorst recently told Regional Airline Association convention attendees he was not optimistic about scope relief for Delta or the industry. He predicts the CSeries and E-195 are destined to become mainline aircraft.
United seems less cynical than Delta as it begins contract talks with its pilots. Through its four-year restructuring that ended in 2006 United ultimately struck a deal with pilots that currently allows for an unlimited number of 70-seat jets with an 80,000lb weight limit. Certain limitations are associated with that somewhat unfettered access including fewer regional block hours than mainline. There are also some restrictions on nonstop 70-plus seat operations between United hubs and specific larger markets such as New York and Washington, DC, unless those operations are cost-effective, according to data from F&H Solutions Group.
Carrier vice president operations and planning for United Express Cindy Szadokierski told convention attendees that in current pilot contract talks “obviously scope is an issue we need to work our way through. In this environment with capacity reductions we see opportunities on both sides to move forward and meet both our needs”.
© AGP Photography
While acknowledging the challenge of predicting with any clarity the outcome of those labour talks Bombardier Commercial Aircraft president Gary Scott does offer that he “has no doubt majors would like to increase the number and size of aircraft they operate in those [regional environments]. Both small CSeries and larger CRJs would fill the requirement should scope be relaxed”.
But mainline pilot resistance to scope remains steadfast as evidenced by the roughly 32-month long contract talks between American Airlines and its pilots.
Seeking to get on a level footing with its US mainline counterparts American aims to secure relief to operate 76-seat jets with a maximum takeoff weight of 89,000lbs. In a recent round of negotiations with pilots American management compared the 25 single-class CRJ700s flown by its subsidiary American Eagle to 209 larger 70-plus seat regional jets flown by Delta Connection carriers, with 149 of those aircraft featuring a two-class configuration. United, says American, operates 112 larger regional jets configured with a two-class offering.
American pilots scoffed at the presentation, dismissing it as a “pitch for APA [the Allied Pilots Association] to allow a scope exception permitting Eagle to fly a 76-seat Embraer in a two-class configuration”.
The reaction by American pilots appears to be consistent with a theory posed by industry analyst Michael Boyd to attendees at the RAA convention that US pilots are “adamant” of not letting go of scope and “not loosening those strings”.
ACL65PILOT
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lookin4better
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Dont give an inch!!! Stop the bleeding now, pilots from all portions of a senioity list need to care about this issue. Union means ALL, not just the top 1/3rd of a list....
These planes ( 195/ C series ) must go to mainline. The kids can CFI a little longer before they hit a regional, and they will have a better chance at going to a major in the long run anyway if these aircraft go to mainline.... if not, its regional airline career for most, like it or not.
This isnt a junior or senior pilots issue, its a PILOTS issue, period.
Dont give up.
( its good to hear in this article that managers may know scope has probably reached its limit )
These planes ( 195/ C series ) must go to mainline. The kids can CFI a little longer before they hit a regional, and they will have a better chance at going to a major in the long run anyway if these aircraft go to mainline.... if not, its regional airline career for most, like it or not.
This isnt a junior or senior pilots issue, its a PILOTS issue, period.
Dont give up.
( its good to hear in this article that managers may know scope has probably reached its limit )
General Lee
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Amen to that. As I stated before, the rest of the people left at the legacies have gone through this krap before. We have watched the senior guys leave (some with pensions, some without), and we are stuck with CR9s in our gates that used to have 737-300s or 737-200s. That is ridiculous. We all know it. The senior guys might not care as much as they only think "internationally" (heck, I fly with some of them), but the rest of us have our eyes wide open. I don't see us giving up any more scope without a large fight.
Bye Bye--General Lee
Bye Bye--General Lee
ACL65PILOT
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ACL65PILOT
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Tell that to the guys you fly besides that have made said regional their destination in this career.
General Lee
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I agree, so General are you going to run for a Rep position?
What do you mean? I run the MEC. My name......is......Lee Moak. BTW, I have a dinner tonight with Ed Bastian, so I can't be on here long....
Bye Bye--General Lee
ACL65PILOT
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Now that is a good one.
What are you two discussing tonight? You golf vacation in August?
I think the only way regionals get anything bigger or more than they already have is through the 1113 process if someone goes bankrupt and reorganizes. We all screwed up with the first examples of relaxation of scope over the past decade and a half. We've already been fooled once. As I've stated before, only the thickest, densest, most clueless pilot doesn't see the damage that has been done already.
And I'm getting tired of reading quotes from Embraer, Bombardier, and the RAA in AW&ST, ATW, and other professional publications lamenting how the industry can only get these CSeries and larger (mainline) jets through relaxation of scope. Hey boys.....the industry can have all the E190's and CSeries aircraft they want, when THE MAINLINES BUY THEM. No relaxation of scope needed. If your jets are so inefficient that you need $50K/year Captains and $20K/year F/O's to subsidize the operation of said jets, then build a damn jet that IS EFFICIENT and stop expecting pilots and airline employees to subsidize regional airline operations.
Preaching to the choir, I realize, but it's thereaputic
ACL65PILOT
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I think the only way regionals get anything bigger or more than they already have is through the 1113 process if someone goes bankrupt and reorganizes. We all screwed up with the first examples of relaxation of scope over the past decade and a half. We've already been fooled once. As I've stated before, only the thickest, densest, most clueless pilot doesn't see the damage that has been done already.
And I'm getting tired of reading quotes from Embraer, Bombardier, and the RAA in AW&ST, ATW, and other professional publications lamenting how the industry can only get these CSeries and larger (mainline) jets through relaxation of scope. Hey boys.....the industry can have all the E190's and CSeries aircraft they want, when THE MAINLINES BUY THEM. No relaxation of scope needed. If your jets are so inefficient that you need $50K/year Captains and $20K/year F/O's to subsidize the operation of said jets, then build a damn jet that IS EFFICIENT and stop expecting pilots and airline employees to subsidize regional airline operations.
Preaching to the choir, I realize, but it's thereaputic
Amen, very well said.
The jets need to be designed to compensate us correctly not the other way around.
C-150ETOPS
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1996 at MIA. AA/APA were heavy into Section 6 negotiations, APA wanted the RJ's. At the time, Comair had the majority of the worlds RJ's, about 40, the rest consisted of a scattered ASA/AirWis BA-146's or Horizon Fokkers. Comair was also privately owned.
Comair Canadair RJ side by side with an American Eagle flight at the 09L/12 merge, both number one for their runways.
AE Pilot: "That's sure a nice looking jet, hope we get to fly them"
Comair Pilot:"Thanks, we hope you get them too"
And there I was without my stack of MENSA club applications
Comair Canadair RJ side by side with an American Eagle flight at the 09L/12 merge, both number one for their runways.
AE Pilot: "That's sure a nice looking jet, hope we get to fly them"
Comair Pilot:"Thanks, we hope you get them too"
And there I was without my stack of MENSA club applications
GogglesPisano
Pawn, in game of life
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JoeMerchant
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What's in it for us?
JoeMerchant
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Tell that to ACL65....he is still selling the snake oil to the lifers.....no sell.....
Scope out RJ's
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How about a multi $$million dollar failed lawsuit?:laugh:
And not to mention a reputation around the industry that preceds you and the rest of the girls that belong to your club!
JoeMerchant
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How about a multi $$million dollar failed lawsuit?:laugh:
And not to mention a reputation around the industry that preceds you and the rest of the girls that belong to your club!
....ahhh...gee....I'm hurt......Lawsuit is affecting your scope negotiations...just ask ACL65....More to follow....
Scope out RJ's
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Career wise? You are!
Don't worry Joey, you'll get the memo! The only thing following, is you, right up Dan's rear!:blush: Keep your man happy!:laugh:
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