Interesting scope article

[Dan Roman]

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/05/28/327092/us-pilot-scope-here-to-stay.html

 

[Superpilot92]

US pilot scope: Here to stay?
By Lori Ranson


While the economics of operating 50-seat jets has put those aircraft at a disadvantage to larger 70 and 90-seat aircraft, the fundamentals of their emergence late in the last decade remain intact: namely US pilot scope clauses.
Scope caps the number of regional jets operated by carriers on behalf of their partners, and also limits the number of seats per aircraft. United, Delta, Northwest and US Airways all got some relief on the 50-seat cap during their respective stints in Chapter 11 during the early 2000s. But American and Continental are still largely constrained to operating 50-seat aircraft.
As Bombardier works to secure orders for its 100-seat CRJ1000 and CSeries aircraft and Embraer’s orderbook tilts towards the larger end of its 170/190 E-Jet family, it appears that aircraft with roughly 76-to 86-seats are becoming the new dividing point between regional and mainline aircraft. A few regional carriers operate aircraft in the 86-seat range, but most of the larger regional jets are constrained to the 76-seat category.

Some airline executives are taking a sober view of any further loosening of scope restrictions as Delta Connection senior vice president Don Bornhorst recently told Regional Airline Association convention attendees he was not optimistic about scope relief for Delta or the industry. He predicts the CSeries and E-195 are destined to become mainline aircraft.
United seems less cynical than Delta as it begins contract talks with its pilots. Through its four-year restructuring that ended in 2006 United ultimately struck a deal with pilots that currently allows for an unlimited number of 70-seat jets with an 80,000lb weight limit. Certain limitations are associated with that somewhat unfettered access including fewer regional block hours than mainline. There are also some restrictions on nonstop 70-plus seat operations between United hubs and specific larger markets such as New York and Washington, DC, unless those operations are cost-effective, according to data from F&H Solutions Group.
Carrier vice president operations and planning for United Express Cindy Szadokierski told convention attendees that in current pilot contract talks “obviously scope is an issue we need to work our way through. In this environment with capacity reductions we see opportunities on both sides to move forward and meet both our needs”.

© AGP Photography​

While acknowledging the challenge of predicting with any clarity the outcome of those labour talks Bombardier Commercial Aircraft president Gary Scott does offer that he “has no doubt majors would like to increase the number and size of aircraft they operate in those [regional environments]. Both small CSeries and larger CRJs would fill the requirement should scope be relaxed”.
But mainline pilot resistance to scope remains steadfast as evidenced by the roughly 32-month long contract talks between American Airlines and its pilots.
Seeking to get on a level footing with its US mainline counterparts American aims to secure relief to operate 76-seat jets with a maximum takeoff weight of 89,000lbs. In a recent round of negotiations with pilots American management compared the 25 single-class CRJ700s flown by its subsidiary American Eagle to 209 larger 70-plus seat regional jets flown by Delta Connection carriers, with 149 of those aircraft featuring a two-class configuration. United, says American, operates 112 larger regional jets configured with a two-class offering.
American pilots scoffed at the presentation, dismissing it as a “pitch for APA [the Allied Pilots Association] to allow a scope exception permitting Eagle to fly a 76-seat Embraer in a two-class configuration”.
The reaction by American pilots appears to be consistent with a theory posed by industry analyst Michael Boyd to attendees at the RAA convention that US pilots are “adamant” of not letting go of scope and “not loosening those strings”.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

It better be that way. I cannot see us giving any more up. We do that and 3000 guys will be on the street for a very long time.

 

[lookin4better]

Dont give an inch!!! Stop the bleeding now, pilots from all portions of a senioity list need to care about this issue. Union means ALL, not just the top 1/3rd of a list....

These planes ( 195/ C series ) must go to mainline. The kids can CFI a little longer before they hit a regional, and they will have a better chance at going to a major in the long run anyway if these aircraft go to mainline.... if not, its regional airline career for most, like it or not.

This isnt a junior or senior pilots issue, its a PILOTS issue, period.

Dont give up.

( its good to hear in this article that managers may know scope has probably reached its limit )

 

[General Lee]

Amen to that. As I stated before, the rest of the people left at the legacies have gone through this krap before. We have watched the senior guys leave (some with pensions, some without), and we are stuck with CR9s in our gates that used to have 737-300s or 737-200s. That is ridiculous. We all know it. The senior guys might not care as much as they only think "internationally" (heck, I fly with some of them), but the rest of us have our eyes wide open. I don't see us giving up any more scope without a large fight.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Amen to that. As I stated before, the rest of the people left at the legacies have gone through this krap before. We have watched the senior guys leave (some with pensions, some without), and we are stuck with CR9s in our gates that used to have 737-300s or 737-200s. That is ridiculous. We all know it. The senior guys might not care as much as they only think "internationally" (heck, I fly with some of them), but the rest of us have our eyes wide open. I don't see us giving up any more scope without a large fight.


Bye Bye--General Lee

I agree, so General are you going to run for a Rep position?

 

[kf4amu]

As a regional F/O, I hope mainline takes back everything down to a 50 seat aircraft. I'd rather sit here with my ********************ty salary for a while longer to guarantee a major airline job later. I don't want any regional airline to grow.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

As a regional F/O, I hope mainline takes back everything down to a 50 seat aircraft. I'd rather sit here with my ********************ty salary for a while longer to guarantee a major airline job later. I don't want any regional airline to grow.

Tell that to the guys you fly besides that have made said regional their destination in this career.

 

[General Lee]

I agree, so General are you going to run for a Rep position?

What do you mean? I run the MEC. My name......is......Lee Moak. BTW, I have a dinner tonight with Ed Bastian, so I can't be on here long....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ACL65PILOT]

What do you mean? I run the MEC. My name......is......Lee Moak. BTW, I have a dinner tonight with Ed Bastian, so I can't be on here long....


Bye Bye--General Lee

Now that is a good one.

What are you two discussing tonight? You golf vacation in August?

 

[ualdriver]

While acknowledging the challenge of predicting with any clarity the outcome of those labour talks Bombardier Commercial Aircraft president Gary Scott does offer that he “has no doubt majors would like to increase the number and size of aircraft they operate in those [regional environments]. Both small CSeries and larger CRJs would fill the requirement should scope be relaxed”.

I think the only way regionals get anything bigger or more than they already have is through the 1113 process if someone goes bankrupt and reorganizes. We all screwed up with the first examples of relaxation of scope over the past decade and a half. We've already been fooled once. As I've stated before, only the thickest, densest, most clueless pilot doesn't see the damage that has been done already.

And I'm getting tired of reading quotes from Embraer, Bombardier, and the RAA in AW&ST, ATW, and other professional publications lamenting how the industry can only get these CSeries and larger (mainline) jets through relaxation of scope. Hey boys.....the industry can have all the E190's and CSeries aircraft they want, when THE MAINLINES BUY THEM. No relaxation of scope needed. If your jets are so inefficient that you need $50K/year Captains and $20K/year F/O's to subsidize the operation of said jets, then build a damn jet that IS EFFICIENT and stop expecting pilots and airline employees to subsidize regional airline operations.

Preaching to the choir, I realize, but it's thereaputic

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I think the only way regionals get anything bigger or more than they already have is through the 1113 process if someone goes bankrupt and reorganizes. We all screwed up with the first examples of relaxation of scope over the past decade and a half. We've already been fooled once. As I've stated before, only the thickest, densest, most clueless pilot doesn't see the damage that has been done already.

And I'm getting tired of reading quotes from Embraer, Bombardier, and the RAA in AW&ST, ATW, and other professional publications lamenting how the industry can only get these CSeries and larger (mainline) jets through relaxation of scope. Hey boys.....the industry can have all the E190's and CSeries aircraft they want, when THE MAINLINES BUY THEM. No relaxation of scope needed. If your jets are so inefficient that you need $50K/year Captains and $20K/year F/O's to subsidize the operation of said jets, then build a damn jet that IS EFFICIENT and stop expecting pilots and airline employees to subsidize regional airline operations.

Preaching to the choir, I realize, but it's thereaputic

Amen, very well said.
The jets need to be designed to compensate us correctly not the other way around.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

1996 at MIA. AA/APA were heavy into Section 6 negotiations, APA wanted the RJ's. At the time, Comair had the majority of the worlds RJ's, about 40, the rest consisted of a scattered ASA/AirWis BA-146's or Horizon Fokkers. Comair was also privately owned.

Comair Canadair RJ side by side with an American Eagle flight at the 09L/12 merge, both number one for their runways.

AE Pilot: "That's sure a nice looking jet, hope we get to fly them"

Comair Pilot:"Thanks, we hope you get them too"


And there I was without my stack of MENSA club applications

 

[GogglesPisano]

These are the new 100-110 seat jets.

Boeing isn't interested in that segment anymore.

The A318 is a flop: A smaller version of the A320 and, as a result, too expensive.

The DC9/MD88 fleets at DL have, at most, 5 years left.

Mainline pilots can no longer consider an Embraer "beneath them."

 

[JoeMerchant]

Tell that to the guys you fly besides that have made said regional their destination in this career.

What's in it for us?

 

[NuGuy]

What's in it for us?

You'll get nothing and like it...


Nu

 

[JoeMerchant]

You'll get nothing and like it...


Nu

Tell that to ACL65....he is still selling the snake oil to the lifers.....no sell.....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

What's in it for us?

How about a multi $$million dollar failed lawsuit?:laugh:
And not to mention a reputation around the industry that preceds you and the rest of the girls that belong to your club!

 

[JoeMerchant]

How about a multi $$million dollar failed lawsuit?:laugh:
And not to mention a reputation around the industry that preceds you and the rest of the girls that belong to your club!

....ahhh...gee....I'm hurt......Lawsuit is affecting your scope negotiations...just ask ACL65....More to follow....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

....ahhh...gee....I'm hurt......

Career wise? You are!

Lawsuit is affecting your scope negotiations...just ask ACL65....More to follow....

Don't worry Joey, you'll get the memo! The only thing following, is you, right up Dan's rear!:blush: Keep your man happy!:laugh:

 

[JoeMerchant]

Career wise? You are!

My career is just fine....how about yours?

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

What's in it for us?

If you are lucky, a flow thru. More than likely some form of preferential interview for DCI pilots. That would be my preference so as to weed out any rjdc types.

 

[Eagle757shark]

What's in it for us?

What is in it for you? NOTHING! The flying should be with the mainline company! The regional lives off the backs of the mainline carrier. They do no marketing, and don't take on nearly the cost their mainline counterpart takes on to operate as a airline. If the aircraft regardless of size makes since for a certain market, then mainline purchase it and then operate it at a cost that will allow it to be profitable. NO MORE OUTSOURCING OF JOBS!

 

[enuffalready]

outsourcing... mainline... blah, blah

I have said it many times before... choose to call me a lifer.. call me whatever you want, but i have and will continue to advocate what is in MY best interest, just as i expect any mainline guy to do the same. yes, I realize my job exists at the discretion of Delta/NWA management and I am ok with that. If mainline/ delta management get together and decide they are closing ASA, then so be it, ill take that chance and deal with the consequences of that decision. As I have pointed out before if you were a stud navy F4 guy from vietnam you went to TWA, Pan AM and Eastern... all gone. Its all a crap shoot. Its funny, the same people that advocate all RJ's at mainline to the detriment of my paycheck get all upset when I advocate 100 seat planes at my airline. Hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of us here that are not deterred by your silly arguments and adolescent name calling and will fight with everything we have to NOT permit a flow through and to improve our quality of life, just as you fight to improve yours

good day

 

[kf4amu]

Tell that to the guys you fly besides that have made said regional their destination in this career.

At some point its not worth changing airlines. That being said, all the old guys are deaf anyway (intercom? HA I dont need no stinkin intercom! What? Huh?) so they wouldnt hear me.

 

[rf285]

outsourcing... mainline... blah, blah

I have said it many times before... choose to call me a lifer.. call me whatever you want, but i have and will continue to advocate what is in MY best interest, just as i expect any mainline guy to do the same. yes, I realize my job exists at the discretion of Delta/NWA management and I am ok with that. If mainline/ delta management get together and decide they are closing ASA, then so be it, ill take that chance and deal with the consequences of that decision. As I have pointed out before if you were a stud navy F4 guy from vietnam you went to TWA, Pan AM and Eastern... all gone. Its all a crap shoot. Its funny, the same people that advocate all RJ's at mainline to the detriment of my paycheck get all upset when I advocate 100 seat planes at my airline. Hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of us here that are not deterred by your silly arguments and adolescent name calling and will fight with everything we have to NOT permit a flow through and to improve our quality of life, just as you fight to improve yours

good day

I won't go there with what that sounds like....

Good luck in your future endeavors. Maybe the pendulum is finally swinging in the right direction.

 

[enuffalready]

if you are saying it sounds like someone who takes responsibilty for themselves, accepts the consequences of his decisions both good and bad and doesnt expect any help from anyone, then yes, I agree with you

In my 8 years at ASA i have meet some really great people, but it never ceases to amaze me the lengths at which some pilots both regional and major, whine and moan and b!tch about the most innocuous of things. They constantly point fingers and blame everyone else for any and every little thing that they perceive as wrong in their lives....especially some that peruse this board.

say it three times with me..

I am not a victim... I am not a victim... I am not a victim...


ok... back to work now..

 

[Scope out RJ's]

My career is just fine....

Then why did you and your girlfriends try and sue to take someone elses?
Hope you didn't spend all that money!:laugh:

how about yours?

My worst day at a legacy is better than your best.

Carry on with your ----->:crying: :crying: :crying: :crying:

 

[AvroGuy]

You will have a hard time convincing the captains I fly with to get rid of the jets. Esspecially since the guys are making close to 100K flying or 75K sitting reserve. Thier lives are pretty good. Ultimately it comes down to one question, Am I happy? If that guy is number 1 in base flying the line he/she wants, why leave for a significant pay cut, 18yr :maybe: upgrade at a legacy. They will say no thanks and I don't blame them.

 

[Eagle757shark]

outsourcing... mainline... blah, blah

I have said it many times before... choose to call me a lifer.. call me whatever you want, but i have and will continue to advocate what is in MY best interest, just as i expect any mainline guy to do the same. yes, I realize my job exists at the discretion of Delta/NWA management and I am ok with that. If mainline/ delta management get together and decide they are closing ASA, then so be it, ill take that chance and deal with the consequences of that decision. As I have pointed out before if you were a stud navy F4 guy from vietnam you went to TWA, Pan AM and Eastern... all gone. Its all a crap shoot. Its funny, the same people that advocate all RJ's at mainline to the detriment of my paycheck get all upset when I advocate 100 seat planes at my airline. Hate to break it to you, but there are plenty of us here that are not deterred by your silly arguments and adolescent name calling and will fight with everything we have to NOT permit a flow through and to improve our quality of life, just as you fight to improve yours

good day

When you are furloughed and then you watch your company turn around and give that flying to a regional for the sake of lower pay, then you would understand! The DC-9/737-200/Fokker100 basically sat the same capacity as the CRJ900 and EMB-190. Management came in and furloughed pilots flying the DC-9/737-200/Fokker100 and outsourced that flying to a lower bidder. The regionals are flying the same routes at someone elses expense. So yes I have a beef because someone who had to provide for his family lost his job because someone like you was willing to accept lower compesation to do what he did. It would be one thing if this was growth and expansion to a degree, which is still unacceptable, but this was replacement flying. So give it a rest, you took another mans job that was flying those size aircraft on those routes. What goes around comes around eventually! NO MORE OUTSOURCING OF FLYING JOBS!