Interesting MOA encounter with Viper

[RiddleRat]

WOW, that was the most intelligent response so far!!! I am sorry i don't agree, if it was restriced airspace and they flew thru it then they were dumb and ignorant, but a MOA is NOT!!! Nothing stupid at all about flying VFR at 16.5 or 17.5.

I agree it is not illegal by any means but a little common sense goes a long way. Out west there are a lot of inactive MOAs, however, you should be aware when there is an alert area next to an Active MOA and next to an AFB to tell yourself well maybe there is some activity here that I cannot or most importantly do not want to deal with.

I wouldn't wanna be doing AR and then have guy in a 172 come buzzing by having to cause a breakaway. To be honest airspeed, I would be suprised you would back this gentleman up by any means since you more know than me how dangerous it can be when you are practicing BFM, etc in a MOA and have some VFR guy zip through....That could be a bad day for everyone.

I do appologize if I was unclear...

- Dave

 

[stonewall]

It's unsafe to go through an active MOA with two to six fighters operating at all altitudes and airspeeds in excess of 450 Kts. They are actively engaged in training, and looking for YOU is not a priority.

Duece, you are wrong on this one...by a wide margin. If an aircraft comes in an active MOA, you have to knock off all the training and find the guy before you can get the fight back on. If you can't find him and ensure he's no factor, you pretty much have no option except to go home at bingo. There goes thousands of taxpayer dollars lost and a missed training opportunity for several pilots.

I had to VID a tail number on a moron that flew through R2914 at Eglin. It's not a big deal.

These two guys can get spun up all they want. While legal, what they were doing was clearly not smart. I'm surprised they actually want to highlight their stupidity in public by making an issue of this event.

 

[Deuce130]

It's unsafe to go through an active MOA with two to six fighters operating at all altitudes and airspeeds in excess of 450 Kts. They are actively engaged in training, and looking for YOU is not a priority.

Duece, you are wrong on this one...by a wide margin. If an aircraft comes in an active MOA, you have to knock off all the training and find the guy before you can get the fight back on. If you can't find him and ensure he's no factor, you pretty much have no option except to go home at bingo. There goes thousands of taxpayer dollars lost and a missed training opportunity for several pilots.

I had to VID a tail number on a moron that flew through R2914 at Eglin. It's not a big deal.

These two guys can get spun up all they want. While legal, what they were doing was clearly not smart. I'm surprised they actually want to highlight their stupidity in public by making an issue of this event.

R2914 is a restricted area. A MOA is not. What part of 11-214 requires you to intercept a civilian aircraft after a KIO call? What reason do you have to join up on any aircraft not part of your briefed formation? Like I said in my previous post, just because those guys were being morons doesn't mean you have to follow them down the same path. It probably cost that guy more in gas to get within fingertip than it would have to simply VID him from a safe distance and insure he's not a factor. Would YOU have joined up on his wing if you didn't have to? IF what those guys is saying is true, who is in the wrong? Sounds like both of them to me. I'm surprised you would think joining up on their wing is a smart idea.

 

[GoUglyEarly]

It probably cost that guy more in gas to get within fingertip than it would have to simply VID him from a safe distance and insure he's not a factor. Would YOU have joined up on his wing if you didn't have to? IF what those guys is saying is true, who is in the wrong? Sounds like both of them to me. I'm surprised you would think joining up on their wing is a smart idea.

Deuce...simmer down pal. You make formation flying sound like some sort of EP. I am fairly sure it was not 10 feet like the bugsmasher claims. While I agree this could have been handled differently, you seem to have some notion that civilian pilots, making poor ORM decisions such as flying through an active MOA, deserve all the benefit of the doubt here.

 

[Deuce130]

Deuce...simmer down pal. You make formation flying sound like some sort of EP. I am fairly sure it was not 10 feet like the bugsmasher claims. While I agree this could have been handled differently, you seem to have some notion that civilian pilots, making poor ORM decisions such as flying through an active MOA, deserve all the benefit of the doubt here.

This isn't about formation flying. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. Some of you are completely missing the point. And read my previous posts. I clearly state that IF the civs are telling the truth, then it's a problem. I'll ask you the same thing I asked Magnum - would you have done it? You think it's smart to join up on someone who doesn't know you're there? Especially if you didn't have to?

 

[The_Russian]

Just because its legal to operate in a hot MOA does not make it a safe idea. As the PIC of a civy aircraft you are responsible for the safety of the aircraft, its occupants, and the return to earth. It is ignorant to believe entering a hot MOA is anything but unsafe when holding that responsibility. Just ask the CFI and student in the 172 who thought because it was legal, that it was OK to transverse Lake Placid. They aren't with us anymore after a Viper plowed into them while maneuvering at high speed.

Also, when you are IFR, ATC will not allow you to enter a hot MOA. Maybe they know something YOU don't.

VFR altitudes are perfectly safe and legal. Actually, they are quite a bit safer than anything under 10K because less planes are up there to run into. Most MOAs seem to operate high while others don't. Obviously the lateral position of this guys airplane did not matter to him, as he may have thought he could fly "above" the action. Personally, I don't touch the stuff....man.

Somehow I have a hard time believing that the TCAS gave him a warning. After hundreds of flights into NAS Key West, Homestead ARB, and Eglin, I have never had a military A/C even show up on my TCAS. As far as I know, most of them squawk a mode not recognized by civilian TCAS. (Correct me if I am wrong on this, its just my experience.)

Formation flying is illegal unless previously briefed. Someone already covered that.

The fact that the Viper pilot was in formation with the PC-12 at twenty feet separation is "alleged". Let the Viper pilot speak for himself before you castrate him. This is not on video or tape and may not have happened as the civy pilot may have been exaggerating.

 

[Occam's Razor]

"Legal"?

It's legal, on an IFR flight plan, to fly through a mature thunderstorm.

I tend to think it's a bad idea, however.

 

[ekuflyer]

Just because its legal to operate in a hot MOA does not make it a safe idea. As the PIC of a civy aircraft you are responsible for the safety of the aircraft, its occupants, and the return to earth. It is ignorant to believe entering a hot MOA is anything but unsafe when holding that responsibility. Just ask the CFI and student in the 172 who thought because it was legal, that it was OK to transverse Lake Placid. They aren't with us anymore after a Viper plowed into them while maneuvering at high speed.

Also, when you are IFR, ATC will not allow you to enter a hot MOA. Maybe they know something YOU don't.

VFR altitudes are perfectly safe and legal. Actually, they are quite a bit safer than anything under 10K because less planes are up there to run into. Most MOAs seem to operate high while others don't. Obviously the lateral position of this guys airplane did not matter to him, as he may have thought he could fly "above" the action. Personally, I don't touch the stuff....man.

Somehow I have a hard time believing that the TCAS gave him a warning. After hundreds of flights into NAS Key West, Homestead ARB, and Eglin, I have never had a military A/C even show up on my TCAS. As far as I know, most of them squawk a mode not recognized by civilian TCAS. (Correct me if I am wrong on this, its just my experience.)

Formation flying is illegal unless previously briefed. Someone already covered that.

The fact that the Viper pilot was in formation with the PC-12 at twenty feet separation is "alleged". Let the Viper pilot speak for himself before you castrate him. This is not on video or tape and may not have happened as the civy pilot may have been exaggerating.

Can't speak for the F-16's but every mil aircraft I've flown squawks just the same as a civil aircraft. We have TCAS in the Herk.

 

[stonewall]

If you're part of a 4 ship, it's not uncommon for ONLY #1 to be carrying the M3C. The rest of the 4 ship will be squawking other codes in accordance with the brief. No M3C, no TCAS.

Deuce, I'm well aware of the differences between warning areas, MOAs and ranges. The point was that joining up to get a tail number is no big deal. Getting his attention by joining on him (and, yes, I'm inclined to believe this pilot could not tell if an F-16 was 10 feet, 100 feet, or 1000 feet away) is simply a way of telling him "hey, we're here, you're in our way, please leave."

Having practiced this and done this as part of Noble Eagle, I realize people may be startled to look up and see a jet next to them. The intercept is supposed to be done in a non-threatening, slow and gentle manner, and you're supposed to only get close enough to get all the necessary information. I seriously doubt these guys were actually THAT close to the civ guys. It's not like they flew less than 500' in front of their noses popping flares.

The lesson to be learned here: Don't fly through active MOAs. Many of my wingmen could barely keep sight of me while working their radars...a PC-12 cowboying it through the MOA 'because he can' is a hazard to himself and others.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

This isn't about formation flying. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you should. Some of you are completely missing the point. And read my previous posts. I clearly state that IF the civs are telling the truth, then it's a problem. I'll ask you the same thing I asked Magnum - would you have done it? You think it's smart to join up on someone who doesn't know you're there? Especially if you didn't have to?[/quote]


I'd would have "Top Gunned" his a$$. You know, roll inverted from 15 feet above and given him the order of the rigid digit and then have my wingman take a picture of it.

 

[The_Russian]

You mean, "keeping up foreign relations"?

 

[Redmeat]

The two civies both apparently had TCAS.

That changes things a bit in my mind.

With that equipment, transitioning an MOA is not as 'irresponsible' as many are claiming.

In fact with TCAS the Falcon guy was actually creating a worse situation by continuing persuit... with the civy following the TCAS resolution commands.

If I were in the same situation (perfectly legal) and I'm yankin and bankin according to the TCAS and I look out and see some throttle jock formed up on me without my permission I'd be on the phone with the FAA too before I even put my airplane away.

 

[AdlerDriver]

The two civies both apparently had TCAS.

That changes things a bit in my mind.

With that equipment, transitioning an MOA is not as 'irresponsible' as many are claiming.

In fact with TCAS the Falcon guy was actually creating a worse situation by continuing persuit... with the civy following the TCAS resolution commands.

If I were in the same situation (perfectly legal) and I'm yankin and bankin according to the TCAS and I look out and see some throttle jock formed up on me without my permission I'd be on the phone with the FAA too before I even put my airplane away.

Oh boy, with that attitude, you'll live up to your username pretty quick.

TCAS was never designed to deal with the dynamics and closure rates created by some tool wandering into a BFM engagement. Transiting that MOA was absolutely irresponsible, TCAS or not.

You have no idea what's really going on in that MOA. One of those fighter pilots may spend the better part of a minute flying his aircraft at 250-500 knots with vertical speeds up to 20,000+ fpm while looking backward - with just an occasional glance forward for info like altitude or airspeed.

Meanwhile, this idiot is trying to get out of the way using 1000 fpm while listening to "climb, climb now - no... wait - descend, increase descent - uuuhhh - ?monitor vertical speed? - you're gonna die!!!!"

You're absolutely kidding yourself if you think TCAS would make any difference at all. Not to mention, the proximity of these fighters was most likely well outside the ranges these idiots claim.

?Yankin and bankin? Keep in mind, TCAS only relies on vertical speed changes to attempt to avoid conflict - not lateral changes. So, there should be no "bankin" as you flail around trying to get out of the way. Do yourself a favor and don't transit an active MOA thinking TCAS is going to keep you safe.

 

[SIG600]

The two civies both apparently had TCAS.

That changes things a bit in my mind.

With that equipment, transitioning an MOA is not as 'irresponsible' as many are claiming.

In fact with TCAS the Falcon guy was actually creating a worse situation by continuing persuit... with the civy following the TCAS resolution commands.

If I were in the same situation (perfectly legal) and I'm yankin and bankin according to the TCAS and I look out and see some throttle jock formed up on me without my permission I'd be on the phone with the FAA too before I even put my airplane away.

That's because you don't know any better. Like Russian said, ATC won't let you tranist IFR, why the hell would you do it VFR? They don't let you do it IFR because they can't assure safe separation. When I go from 18K' to 5K', at speeds between 500 knots and 90 knots, tangled up with three other jets in the middle of a furball, we are not (nor do we have the capacity) to look for your dumb a@@ trundling through "because it's legal." It's legal to plow through a thunderstorm. Go do that too and get back too me.

 

[stonewall]

The wingman might not be squawking M3C. If he's only squawking 1/2/4, no TCAS. The wingman might also be several miles from the dude actually carrying the M3 squawk. TCAS will not save you.