Interesting Colgan transcript tidbits

[SEVEN]

The question is now is can Colgan survive this? CAL could just pull the plug and who's going to want to codeshare with Colgan?

Great question. I believe Colgan will survive this disaster. Although it will be rough for a while. The fallout from the Comair Lexington crash lasted a long time. Comair is still around for the time being.
Colgan might be able to weather the storm. We'll see.

 

[ackattacker]

Since Colgan is now owned by Pinnacle it wouldn't surprise me if they fully absorb the brand name as a P.R. ploy. No more Colgan, only Pinnacle. No change in flying.

Just a thought though. Something akin to the ValuJet / Airtran deal.

 

[LJ45]

Last September at my Challenger 300 PC at FSI Wilmington, DE, the instructor had us set up the stall profile with the autopilot engaged and then had us turn around in our seats to chat with her "to simulate being distracted" and at stickshaker we had to recover the airplane.
I liked this approach as it seemed like it was more "real world".
I forget if it was at ASA or not but somewhere in my career the term went from PNF (pilot not fliying) to PM (pilot monitoring).
Someone has to fly the airplane!
I hope we can all look at this tragedy and learn from this terrible event.

Cheers- Rum

I agree, and for jets you should do one at the service ceiling and see how many thousand feet it take to recovery. Once you get behind the curve at alt. with min thrust availibile from the engines from being at 40,000 + feet, it can take awhile to get the speed back.

 

[HA25]

Since Colgan is now owned by Pinnacle it wouldn't surprise me if they fully absorb the brand name as a P.R. ploy. No more Colgan, only Pinnacle. No change in flying.

Just a thought though. Something akin to the ValuJet / Airtran deal.

I would bet my ATP on it..

 

[PCL_128]

Would you feel comfortable with your family flying with this crew?

No, I wouldn't, but I generally avoid most regional flights because of the lack of experience up front. But, and this is important, I DON'T BLAME MY FELLOW PILOTS, I BLAME MANAGEMENT AND THE SYSTEM!!!!! This crew wasn't at fault for not having the proper experience. Management and the FAA told them that they were perfectly qualified to fly this airplane in this environment. If the FAA had proper minimums for flying Part 121, then this couldn't have happened. If management had cared more about finding qualified applicants, even if meant paying more to get them, then this wouldn't have happened. If management and the FAA would provide schedules that don't induce fatigue, then this wouldn't have happened. If management hadn't intimidated this FO into not calling in sick, then this wouldn't have happened. Seeing a trend here?

Many things contribute to an accident. Just placing blame on the pilots does no good. The inexperienced pilots were placed in this situation by negligent managers and government bureaucrats that care more about protecting commerce than customers. Focus on the true culprits, not the pilots that paid for their inexperience with their own lives.

 

[CopilotDoug]

No, I wouldn't, but I generally avoid most regional flights because of the lack of experience up front. But, and this is important, I DON'T BLAME MY FELLOW PILOTS, I BLAME MANAGEMENT AND THE SYSTEM!!!!! This crew wasn't at fault for not having the proper experience. Management and the FAA told them that they were perfectly qualified to fly this airplane in this environment. If the FAA had proper minimums for flying Part 121, then this couldn't have happened. If management had cared more about finding qualified applicants, even if meant paying more to get them, then this wouldn't have happened. If management and the FAA would provide schedules that don't induce fatigue, then this wouldn't have happened. If management hadn't intimidated this FO into not calling in sick, then this wouldn't have happened. Seeing a trend here? Many things contribute to an accident. Just placing blame on the pilots does no good. The inexperienced pilots were placed in this situation by negligent managers and government bureaucrats that care more about protecting commerce than customers.

Negligent managers...government bureaucrats...a broken system...just contributing factors leading up to the final outcome. Let's be honest here...if the Captain is fatigued, who is responsible for brining it to the chief pilots attention? If the Copilot has an ear infection, who is responsible for brining that to the chief pilots attention?

I eagerly await your answer, PCL.

 

[PCL_128]

Negligent managers...government bureaucrats...a broken system...just contributing factors leading up to the final outcome. Let's be honest here...if the Captain is fatigued, who is responsible for brining it to the chief pilots attention? If the Copilot has an ear infection, who is responsible for brining that to the chief pilots attention?

A simplistic post from a simplistic man. Fatigue creeps up on you, and in many cases you won't recognize it until you've already made a mistake; in this case, a fatal mistake. Also, expecting a junior copilot on probation at a hostile company to call in sick and risk her job is unrealistic. Most pilots in similar circumstances push themselves to the limit because they fear for their livelihoods. That's a management problem, not a pilot problem. Mrs. Shaw probably felt that she was just barely ok to fly, but she probably wouldn't have pushed it if she didn't feel that she would be in trouble for calling in sick. Punitive sick/fatigue policies cause accidents.

Rather than looking for simplistic "feel good" answers, you should be looking for true solutions to the problems that plague the airline industry, especially the regional segment of the industry.

 

[airplane wizard]

Seems like neither one of them knew what to do when the stick shaker activated. Would the plane have had enough altitude to recover if the pilots did the right thing>

 

[HA25]

Negligent managers...government bureaucrats...a broken system...just contributing factors leading up to the final outcome. Let's be honest here...if the Captain is fatigued, who is responsible for brining it to the chief pilots attention? If the Copilot has an ear infection, who is responsible for brining that to the chief pilots attention?

I eagerly await your answer, PCL.

you clearly work for one of those airlines where calling in sick is a non event.. I had a job like that once... but most of the jobs I held in this crap business have a lot of pressure on keeping staff to a minimum and not calling in sick.

With that said, the caliber of the pilots at the regionals, especially today is something that needs to be studied... the type of person that would work for $17K a year with in this environment where the majors all still have 1000's on furlough and no hiring in sight has to be a person that lacks a certain maturity and quality about them, i.e Caliber.

Quality people seek good paying jobs, or if they're going to work for poor wages, they will have an endgame and an end in sight for accepting those wages... in the past year, going to a regional was economically a death sentence.. not like when guys were going in the early and mid 90's and then onto the majors with in 2-3 years.

 

[HA25]

Seems like neither one of them knew what to do when the stick shaker activated. Would the plane have had enough altitude to recover if the pilots did the right thing>

close to 1/2 a mile of altitude? of course... ATP standard for recovery from a stall are less than 100'.. I have done just about all my type ratings (some to a full stall) with little or no altitude loss... even factoring in being surprised / fatigued... it doesn't take 2300' to recover from a stall..

I had a cockpit smoke in real life a couple of years back.. both myself and my first officer reacted almost out of instinct with minimal discussion and had the aircraft on the ground from 35000' and at night with in 5 min or so.. we reacted out of instinct and training and didn't have to digest the situation.. it's why we're paid as "professional" pilots to be cool, even under emergency conditions.... not so we can go for a ride.

 

[LazyLightnin']

2300' MSL. More like a 1/4 mile agl. But, still, you're absolutely right.

 

[CopilotDoug]

A simplistic post from a simplistic man. Fatigue creeps up on you, and in many cases you won't recognize it until you've already made a mistake; in this case, a fatal mistake.

It's ultimately your responsibility to monitor and catch it before it turns into fatigue. It shouldn't even make it to the level of being fatigued. That's one difference between a professional pilot and a regular pilot.

Also, expecting a junior copilot on probation at a hostile company to call in sick and risk her job is unrealistic.

This is pathetic union hack drivel! Any pilot who wouldn't put their job on the line when it comes to their convictions about safety doesn't need to be sitting in the cockpit of a passenger plane. They clearly have misconceptions about the true stakes involved. That, or they like rolling the dice. Does either one sound like a professional to you?

Most pilots in similar circumstances push themselves to the limit because they fear for their livelihoods.

That's another gem of an emotional buzzword: Livelihood.
Contrary to your Unionist views of protecting the weak, not everyone is entitled to a cockpit in order to support their livelihood.

That's a management problem, not a pilot problem. Mrs. Shaw probably felt that she was just barely ok to fly, but she probably wouldn't have pushed it if she didn't feel that she would be in trouble for calling in sick. Punitive sick/fatigue policies cause accidents.

Rather than looking for simplistic "feel good" answers, you should be looking for true solutions to the problems that plague the airline industry, especially the regional segment of the industry.

Sorry PCL, you're looking everywhere but where you need to, and that is in the mirror. If you'd stop building an ALPA soapbox from the charred remains of a Q400 for one moment, you'd see that this is the way flying has always been. What has changed are pilot training procedures and techniques, a la the pilot-mills. This isn't the pilot pushing you imply from the 1930s. This one ultimately comes down to, and reiterates, the pilots up front being the final say.

If I know my Union Hacks as well as I think I do...you'll go on blaming everyone else.

 

[firstthird]

I had a cockpit smoke in real life a couple of years back.. both myself and my first officer reacted almost out of instinct with minimal discussion and had the aircraft on the ground from 35000' and at night with in 5 min or so..

7000 fpm all the way to the ground? or was it 8500 fpm to 1000 feet and then 1000 fpm to touchdown. I think that either your memory is poor or you are exaggerating or you fly a 9g fighter jet. the 737 certainly won't do much more than 4000 fpm for long w/o exceeding vmo or mmo.

 

[HA25]

2300' MSL. More like a 1/4 mile agl. But, still, you're absolutely right.

sorry, assumed the airport was SL since it's near water... but anyway, you get it..

 

[LazyLightnin']

It's ultimately your responsibility to monitor and catch it before it turns into fatigue. It shouldn't even make it to the level of being fatigued. That's one difference between a professional pilot and a regular pilot.

Remember this little quote the next time you are in line to order that afternoon cup of coffee. Maybe you should save a couple of bucks and go home instead.