Interesting Colgan transcript tidbits

[V-1]

Someone finally said what's probably on the tip of most peoples tongue.

Fact is, while they were hiring 1000 hour girls at Colgan, there were 1000s' of out of work 5000+ hour pilots with all kinds of experience... but would they work for $18/hr? not likely.

Well said.

 

[CA1900]

No one has mentioned that the SIC was complaining about her ears. Why? Can't you take a sick day at Colgan?

I can't speak for Colgan, but at my last operator (another all-turboprop regional with low pay), it was definitely discouraged. While I was there, they enacted a policy that three sick calls within a specific timeframe was grounds for termination. The director of safety actually compared taking a sick day to stealing from the company! If Colgan's culture is at all similar to that (and I'd bet good money that it is), I understand her reluctance to call in sick.


I still think fatigue played a huge part in this crash--more so than will probably be in the final report. Had the FO been more alert (tough, after commuting in on a red-eye that morning), she might well have caught the slow airspeed before it was too late. Had the captain not built up a sleep debt from repeated stand-up overnights, maybe he'd have caught it, too.


Yeah, they screwed up the end game; that much is obvious. But there were many links in this accident chain we can all learn from. Simply calling it "pilot error" and moving on is a cop-out.

 

[BushwickBill]

I can't speak for Colgan, but at my last operator (another all-turboprop regional with low pay), it was definitely discouraged. While I was there, they enacted a policy that three sick calls within a specific timeframe was grounds for termination. The director of safety actually compared taking a sick day to stealing from the company! If Colgan's culture is at all similar to that (and I'd bet good money that it is), I understand her reluctance to call in sick.


I still think fatigue played a huge part in this crash--more so than will probably be in the final report. Had the FO been more alert (tough, after commuting in on a red-eye that morning), she might well have caught the slow airspeed before it was too late. Had the captain not built up a sleep debt from repeated stand-up overnights, maybe he'd have caught it, too.


Yeah, they screwed up the end game; that much is obvious. But there were many links in this accident chain we can all learn from. Simply calling it "pilot error" and moving on is a cop-out.

Thanks for that and the last few replies as well. I'm not sure what can be done about the problem but a good start is not just blaming overworked and underpaid pilots.

 

[HawkerF/O]

The only thing I can say in defense of what she said

Why am I not surprised that you would have the nerve to sit up here and defend any of this as being OK. 50 passengers died, and you want to sit up here and defend it is being ok. That tells us all we need to know about your character. You go get 'em, 1900 Boy.

 

[dispatchguy]

I still think fatigue played a huge part in this crash--more so than will probably be in the final report. Had the FO been more alert (tough, after commuting in on a red-eye that morning), she might well have caught the slow airspeed before it was too late. Had the captain not built up a sleep debt from repeated stand-up overnights, maybe he'd have caught it, too.

I was at a carrier that even though we did nap trips (I think they need to be illegal), we still required the crew at least (and I am running on memory here from many years back) 5.5 in the hotel on a nap trip.

Does CJC have such a rule - my guess is no.

 

[Thurman Merman]

I can't speak for Colgan, but at my last operator (another all-turboprop regional with low pay), it was definitely discouraged. While I was there, they enacted a policy that three sick calls within a specific timeframe was grounds for termination. The director of safety actually compared taking a sick day to stealing from the company! If Colgan's culture is at all similar to that (and I'd bet good money that it is), I understand her reluctance to call in sick.


I still think fatigue played a huge part in this crash--more so than will probably be in the final report. Had the FO been more alert (tough, after commuting in on a red-eye that morning), she might well have caught the slow airspeed before it was too late. Had the captain not built up a sleep debt from repeated stand-up overnights, maybe he'd have caught it, too.


Yeah, they screwed up the end game; that much is obvious. But there were many links in this accident chain we can all learn from. Simply calling it "pilot error" and moving on is a cop-out.

As a former Colgan Captain, I can say you hit the nail on the head. Sick days were worse than swine flu. Crew Sched sometimes would want a doctors note. If they couldn't cover the trip you were calling in for they would give you a missed trip. While at CJC I can honestly count on one hand how many days I called out sick (5 years of service). It is company culture that will not, in all likelyhood, be addressed by the NTSB.

 

[semperfido]

The crew in this case was simply very weak and should not have been in that cockpit. In way over their heads. A very poor example of professionalism. The facts speak for themselves.

Seems like the bar just keeps getting lower and lower. What next?

 

[SEVEN]

What next?

Big, Big changes at Colgan Air. You can bet on it.

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Colgan for sure questioned any and all sick calls, I know this firsthand. I was given a hard time there every time I called in sick.

 

[Smacktard]

Why am I not surprised that you would have the nerve to sit up here and defend any of this as being OK. 50 passengers died, and you want to sit up here and defend it is being ok. That tells us all we need to know about your character. You go get 'em, 1900 Boy.

You know nothing about me, you appear to know even less about basic FARs either. What were you saying about character again?

So how many hours of instruction do you have in icing conditions? Snow? How many hours in icing conditions did you have prior to your first paying job? What type of aircraft would you recommend instructors use to take students into known icing conditions? Any FARs you'd like to cover for us that might relate to this issue?

You realize that probably 99.9% of instructors have zero or less than 1 hour of instruction in icing conditions, right? I fall into the 99.9% category, of my 1000 hours instructing, I had exactly zero hours of instruction while in icing conditions.

So again, looking at what she said, where is it so wrong? That's what I'm defending numbnuts. "1900 boy"? What does that have to do with this? Are we comparing planes now? Are you out of high-school? Oh wait, let me qualify myself so that you can feel better, my plane has 2 bathrooms and my seat is up and to the left, is that better?

Oh, and one other edit, my original quote was defending what she was saying about seeing ice for the first time, how you could take that out of context and assume that I was defending the crew's actions is, again, illustrative, of your posting without thinking. Use your brain Hawker boy.

 

[rumrnr78]

Last September at my Challenger 300 PC at FSI Wilmington, DE, the instructor had us set up the stall profile with the autopilot engaged and then had us turn around in our seats to chat with her "to simulate being distracted" and at stickshaker we had to recover the airplane.
I liked this approach as it seemed like it was more "real world".
I forget if it was at ASA or not but somewhere in my career the term went from PNF (pilot not fliying) to PM (pilot monitoring).
Someone has to fly the airplane!
I hope we can all look at this tragedy and learn from this terrible event.

Cheers- Rum

 

[SEVEN]

Last September at my Challenger 300 PC at FSI Wilmington, DE, the instructor had us set up the stall profile with the autopilot engaged and then had us turn around in our seats to chat with her "to simulate being distracted" and at stickshaker we had to recover the airplane.
I liked this approach as it seemed like it was more "real world".
I forget if it was at ASA or not but somewhere in my career the term went from PNF (pilot not fliying) to PM (pilot monitoring).
Someone has to fly the airplane!
I hope we can all look at this tragedy and learn
from this terrible event.

Cheers- Rum

I guarantee the Feds will be all over Colgan's training dept on this. There will be changes to the way stall recovery is taught with regards to the shaker and pusher. Anytime an accident of this magnitude happens, the FAA sets up camp in the training dept. and on the line at those airlines. Colgan deserves everything they get. This is the result of an accident that kills many people. The CVR and FDR animation is very damning. It does not speak well at all for Colgan. As I have said before: Big, big changes on the way at Colgan.

 

[Jet_Dreamer]

You know nothing about me, you appear to know even less about basic FARs either. What were you saying about character again?

So how many hours of instruction do you have in icing conditions? Snow? How many hours in icing conditions did you have prior to your first paying job? What type of aircraft would you recommend instructors use to take students into known icing conditions? Any FARs you'd like to cover for us that might relate to this issue?

You realize that probably 99.9% of instructors have zero or less than 1 hour of instruction in icing conditions, right? I fall into the 99.9% category, of my 1000 hours instructing, I had exactly zero hours of instruction while in icing conditions.

So again, looking at what she said, where is it so wrong? That's what I'm defending numbnuts. "1900 boy"? What does that have to do with this? Are we comparing planes now? Are you out of high-school? Oh wait, let me qualify myself so that you can feel better, my plane has 2 bathrooms and my seat is up and to the left, is that better?

Oh, and one other edit, my original quote was defending what she was saying about seeing ice for the first time, how you could take that out of context and assume that I was defending the crew's actions is, again, illustrative, of your posting without thinking. Use your brain Hawker boy.

a 'knight' for smacktard.

 

[skiandsurf]

The crew in this case was simply very weak and should not have been in that cockpit. In way over their heads. A very poor example of professionalism. The facts speak for themselves.

Seems like the bar just keeps getting lower and lower. What next?

I dont care how tired, how hungry, how sick, how "whatever excuse you have"......FLY THE PLANE.

These two, and they arent the only two, were (are) way over their heads. Low time. Lack of experience. Lack of understanding. Lack of skills. Lack of "whatever excuse you have"....were in way above their ability. Sadly, they knew it but didnt speak up. The captain needed the pay, the FO was waiting for more experience.

We all remember how "Sully saved the day" in the Hudson. This was not because he was well rested, or had a big lunch, or was feeling good that day.....its because he had the experience to FLY THE PLANE. Sure he was lucky that the river was there, the river was clear of boats, etc...but he knew his job. These two Colgan pilots, didnt understand their jobs.

(disclaimer.....is it easy to screw up? sure it is. Have I ever screwed up? sure I have. Have I ever bent an airplane or killed anyone? Nope)

Be safe out there. AND FLY THE AIRPLANE.

 

[F/O]

I guarantee the Feds will be all over Colgan's training dept on this. There will be changes to the way stall recovery is taught with regards to the shaker and pusher. Anytime an accident of this magnitude happens, the FAA sets up camp in the training dept. and on the line at those airlines. Colgan deserves everything they get. This is the result of an accident that kills many people. The CVR and FDR animation is very damning. It does not speak well at all for Colgan. As I have said before: Big, big changes on the way at Colgan.

Yeah, there will be changes to how they teach stall recovery. Retracting the flaps? She certainly pulled that one out of her a$$. But I digress. Mark my words there will be NO changes to the crappy pay, fatiguing schedules, flying sick, outsourcing to the lowest bidder, etc. that created this mess to begin with. Too much money is involved.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The captain needed the pay, the FO was waiting for more experience.

And this is what today's passenger is paying for. Don't even think of raising those ticket prices! Those pilots don't need higher pay....they've got the best damned job in the world!

 

[Browntothebone]

And this is what today's passenger is paying for. Don't even think of raising those ticket prices! Those pilots don't need higher pay....they've got the best damned job in the world!

Yes we do. Beats working in a cubicle.

 

[Kingzrt]

I can't believe i am reading this CRAP... Every one of you have your heads up your ass. What ever happened to we are all in this together? Every one of you have the single letter "I" in the spelling of "team". The airline industry use to be all about being there when one of the brothers goes down, Now its all about how quickly we can criticize and ******************** all over the crew. We, let me spell this again WE all take the same risk's every time WE get into the aircraft. It's good to know that if i screw up my name is going to be dragged through the trenches like you all are dragging this crew.
I only hope this does not ever happen to any of you. Is this what the aviation community is coming to? If it is i want to get the hell out now........

 

[SEVEN]

Yeah, there will be changes to how they teach stall recovery. Retracting the flaps? She certainly pulled that one out of her a$$. But I digress. Mark my words there will be NO changes to the crappy pay, fatiguing schedules, flying sick, outsourcing to the lowest bidder, etc. that created this mess to begin with. Too much money is involved.

I agree. No changes to pay and work rules.

 

[Browntothebone]

I can't believe i am reading this CRAP... Every one of you have your heads up your ass. What ever happened to we are all in this together? Every one of you have the single letter "I" in the spelling of "team". The airline industry use to be all about being there when one of the brothers goes down, Now its all about how quickly we can criticize and ******************** all over the crew. We, let me spell this again WE all take the same risk's every time WE get into the aircraft. It's good to know that if i screw up my name is going to be dragged through the trenches like you all are dragging this crew.
I only hope this does not ever happen to any of you. Is this what the aviation community is coming to? If it is i want to get the hell out now........

Bye, bye. There are THOUSANDS of wannabes lined up to take your place.