Interesting Colgan transcript tidbits

[rumrnr78]

Last September at my Challenger 300 PC at FSI Wilmington, DE, the instructor had us set up the stall profile with the autopilot engaged and then had us turn around in our seats to chat with her "to simulate being distracted" and at stickshaker we had to recover the airplane.
I liked this approach as it seemed like it was more "real world".
I forget if it was at ASA or not but somewhere in my career the term went from PNF (pilot not fliying) to PM (pilot monitoring).
Someone has to fly the airplane!
I hope we can all look at this tragedy and learn from this terrible event.

Cheers- Rum

 

[SEVEN]

Last September at my Challenger 300 PC at FSI Wilmington, DE, the instructor had us set up the stall profile with the autopilot engaged and then had us turn around in our seats to chat with her "to simulate being distracted" and at stickshaker we had to recover the airplane.
I liked this approach as it seemed like it was more "real world".
I forget if it was at ASA or not but somewhere in my career the term went from PNF (pilot not fliying) to PM (pilot monitoring).
Someone has to fly the airplane!
I hope we can all look at this tragedy and learn
from this terrible event.

Cheers- Rum

I guarantee the Feds will be all over Colgan's training dept on this. There will be changes to the way stall recovery is taught with regards to the shaker and pusher. Anytime an accident of this magnitude happens, the FAA sets up camp in the training dept. and on the line at those airlines. Colgan deserves everything they get. This is the result of an accident that kills many people. The CVR and FDR animation is very damning. It does not speak well at all for Colgan. As I have said before: Big, big changes on the way at Colgan.

 

[Jet_Dreamer]

You know nothing about me, you appear to know even less about basic FARs either. What were you saying about character again?

So how many hours of instruction do you have in icing conditions? Snow? How many hours in icing conditions did you have prior to your first paying job? What type of aircraft would you recommend instructors use to take students into known icing conditions? Any FARs you'd like to cover for us that might relate to this issue?

You realize that probably 99.9% of instructors have zero or less than 1 hour of instruction in icing conditions, right? I fall into the 99.9% category, of my 1000 hours instructing, I had exactly zero hours of instruction while in icing conditions.

So again, looking at what she said, where is it so wrong? That's what I'm defending numbnuts. "1900 boy"? What does that have to do with this? Are we comparing planes now? Are you out of high-school? Oh wait, let me qualify myself so that you can feel better, my plane has 2 bathrooms and my seat is up and to the left, is that better?

Oh, and one other edit, my original quote was defending what she was saying about seeing ice for the first time, how you could take that out of context and assume that I was defending the crew's actions is, again, illustrative, of your posting without thinking. Use your brain Hawker boy.

a 'knight' for smacktard.

 

[skiandsurf]

The crew in this case was simply very weak and should not have been in that cockpit. In way over their heads. A very poor example of professionalism. The facts speak for themselves.

Seems like the bar just keeps getting lower and lower. What next?

I dont care how tired, how hungry, how sick, how "whatever excuse you have"......FLY THE PLANE.

These two, and they arent the only two, were (are) way over their heads. Low time. Lack of experience. Lack of understanding. Lack of skills. Lack of "whatever excuse you have"....were in way above their ability. Sadly, they knew it but didnt speak up. The captain needed the pay, the FO was waiting for more experience.

We all remember how "Sully saved the day" in the Hudson. This was not because he was well rested, or had a big lunch, or was feeling good that day.....its because he had the experience to FLY THE PLANE. Sure he was lucky that the river was there, the river was clear of boats, etc...but he knew his job. These two Colgan pilots, didnt understand their jobs.

(disclaimer.....is it easy to screw up? sure it is. Have I ever screwed up? sure I have. Have I ever bent an airplane or killed anyone? Nope)

Be safe out there. AND FLY THE AIRPLANE.

 

[F/O]

I guarantee the Feds will be all over Colgan's training dept on this. There will be changes to the way stall recovery is taught with regards to the shaker and pusher. Anytime an accident of this magnitude happens, the FAA sets up camp in the training dept. and on the line at those airlines. Colgan deserves everything they get. This is the result of an accident that kills many people. The CVR and FDR animation is very damning. It does not speak well at all for Colgan. As I have said before: Big, big changes on the way at Colgan.

Yeah, there will be changes to how they teach stall recovery. Retracting the flaps? She certainly pulled that one out of her a$$. But I digress. Mark my words there will be NO changes to the crappy pay, fatiguing schedules, flying sick, outsourcing to the lowest bidder, etc. that created this mess to begin with. Too much money is involved.

 

[CopilotDoug]

The captain needed the pay, the FO was waiting for more experience.

And this is what today's passenger is paying for. Don't even think of raising those ticket prices! Those pilots don't need higher pay....they've got the best damned job in the world!

 

[Browntothebone]

And this is what today's passenger is paying for. Don't even think of raising those ticket prices! Those pilots don't need higher pay....they've got the best damned job in the world!

Yes we do. Beats working in a cubicle.

 

[Kingzrt]

I can't believe i am reading this CRAP... Every one of you have your heads up your ass. What ever happened to we are all in this together? Every one of you have the single letter "I" in the spelling of "team". The airline industry use to be all about being there when one of the brothers goes down, Now its all about how quickly we can criticize and ******************** all over the crew. We, let me spell this again WE all take the same risk's every time WE get into the aircraft. It's good to know that if i screw up my name is going to be dragged through the trenches like you all are dragging this crew.
I only hope this does not ever happen to any of you. Is this what the aviation community is coming to? If it is i want to get the hell out now........

 

[SEVEN]

Yeah, there will be changes to how they teach stall recovery. Retracting the flaps? She certainly pulled that one out of her a$$. But I digress. Mark my words there will be NO changes to the crappy pay, fatiguing schedules, flying sick, outsourcing to the lowest bidder, etc. that created this mess to begin with. Too much money is involved.

I agree. No changes to pay and work rules.

 

[Browntothebone]

I can't believe i am reading this CRAP... Every one of you have your heads up your ass. What ever happened to we are all in this together? Every one of you have the single letter "I" in the spelling of "team". The airline industry use to be all about being there when one of the brothers goes down, Now its all about how quickly we can criticize and ******************** all over the crew. We, let me spell this again WE all take the same risk's every time WE get into the aircraft. It's good to know that if i screw up my name is going to be dragged through the trenches like you all are dragging this crew.
I only hope this does not ever happen to any of you. Is this what the aviation community is coming to? If it is i want to get the hell out now........

Bye, bye. There are THOUSANDS of wannabes lined up to take your place.

 

[Cardinal]

I can't believe i am reading this CRAP... Every one of you have your heads up your ass. What ever happened to we are all in this together? Every one of you have the single letter "I" in the spelling of "team". The airline industry use to be all about being there when one of the brothers goes down, Now its all about how quickly we can criticize and ******************** all over the crew. We, let me spell this again WE all take the same risk's every time WE get into the aircraft. It's good to know that if i screw up my name is going to be dragged through the trenches like you all are dragging this crew.
I only hope this does not ever happen to any of you. Is this what the aviation community is coming to? If it is i want to get the hell out now........

WTF are you talking about? If you hand me an aircraft with a jacked up logbook I'll chase you down the concourse to give you the opportunity to fix it. Misread your schedule and come out to the aircraft late I'll cover for you. If you have a contract question I'll spend hours looking for the answer for you. I'll pass along accurate pireps to make your day safer and easier. I'll smile at you in the terminal. I'll go to outlandish lengths to get a jumspeater on. That's teamwork.

Kill 50 people by personally defining all that is wrong with this industry? Make a mockery of my profession? Make me and my colleagues look like fools? I'll hang you out to dry. Plan on it.

 

[Erlanger]

I can't believe i am reading this CRAP... Every one of you have your heads up your ass. What ever happened to we are all in this together? Every one of you have the single letter "I" in the spelling of "team". The airline industry use to be all about being there when one of the brothers goes down, Now its all about how quickly we can criticize and ******************** all over the crew. We, let me spell this again WE all take the same risk's every time WE get into the aircraft. It's good to know that if i screw up my name is going to be dragged through the trenches like you all are dragging this crew.
I only hope this does not ever happen to any of you. Is this what the aviation community is coming to? If it is i want to get the hell out now........

Would you feel comfortable with your family flying with this crew?

 

[SEVEN]

I can't believe i am reading this CRAP... Every one of you have your heads up your ass. What ever happened to we are all in this together? Every one of you have the single letter "I" in the spelling of "team". The airline industry use to be all about being there when one of the brothers goes down, Now its all about how quickly we can criticize and ******************** all over the crew. We, let me spell this again WE all take the same risk's every time WE get into the aircraft. It's good to know that if i screw up my name is going to be dragged through the trenches like you all are dragging this crew.
I only hope this does not ever happen to any of you. Is this what the aviation community is coming to? If it is i want to get the hell out now........

Listen man. These "fellow" pilots didn't have an altitude or heading deviation, they KILLED lots and lots and lots of men woman and children. This was PREVENTABLE at every basic level. Stop shifting blame everywhere else. It's okay to say that the pilots should not have been allowed in that cockpit. The focus must be on preventing low time, inexperienced pilots in the flight deck. Not to mention, stop the BS chatting while flying an ILS at night, in the winter, with moderate icing conditions.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Not to mention, stop the BS chatting while flying an ILS at night, in the winter, with moderate icing conditions.

I disagree with this statement... after having reread the CVR multiple times, they put their game faces on as they began the approach phase. Notice on the There was a bit of chatter prior, but it was almost all about the icing conditions they were experiencing.

 

[Erlanger]

The question now is, can Colgan survive this? CAL could just pull the plug and who's going to want to codeshare with Colgan?

 

[SEVEN]

The question is now is can Colgan survive this? CAL could just pull the plug and who's going to want to codeshare with Colgan?

Great question. I believe Colgan will survive this disaster. Although it will be rough for a while. The fallout from the Comair Lexington crash lasted a long time. Comair is still around for the time being.
Colgan might be able to weather the storm. We'll see.

 

[ackattacker]

Since Colgan is now owned by Pinnacle it wouldn't surprise me if they fully absorb the brand name as a P.R. ploy. No more Colgan, only Pinnacle. No change in flying.

Just a thought though. Something akin to the ValuJet / Airtran deal.

 

[LJ45]

Last September at my Challenger 300 PC at FSI Wilmington, DE, the instructor had us set up the stall profile with the autopilot engaged and then had us turn around in our seats to chat with her "to simulate being distracted" and at stickshaker we had to recover the airplane.
I liked this approach as it seemed like it was more "real world".
I forget if it was at ASA or not but somewhere in my career the term went from PNF (pilot not fliying) to PM (pilot monitoring).
Someone has to fly the airplane!
I hope we can all look at this tragedy and learn from this terrible event.

Cheers- Rum

I agree, and for jets you should do one at the service ceiling and see how many thousand feet it take to recovery. Once you get behind the curve at alt. with min thrust availibile from the engines from being at 40,000 + feet, it can take awhile to get the speed back.

 

[HA25]

Since Colgan is now owned by Pinnacle it wouldn't surprise me if they fully absorb the brand name as a P.R. ploy. No more Colgan, only Pinnacle. No change in flying.

Just a thought though. Something akin to the ValuJet / Airtran deal.

I would bet my ATP on it..

 

[PCL_128]

Would you feel comfortable with your family flying with this crew?

No, I wouldn't, but I generally avoid most regional flights because of the lack of experience up front. But, and this is important, I DON'T BLAME MY FELLOW PILOTS, I BLAME MANAGEMENT AND THE SYSTEM!!!!! This crew wasn't at fault for not having the proper experience. Management and the FAA told them that they were perfectly qualified to fly this airplane in this environment. If the FAA had proper minimums for flying Part 121, then this couldn't have happened. If management had cared more about finding qualified applicants, even if meant paying more to get them, then this wouldn't have happened. If management and the FAA would provide schedules that don't induce fatigue, then this wouldn't have happened. If management hadn't intimidated this FO into not calling in sick, then this wouldn't have happened. Seeing a trend here?

Many things contribute to an accident. Just placing blame on the pilots does no good. The inexperienced pilots were placed in this situation by negligent managers and government bureaucrats that care more about protecting commerce than customers. Focus on the true culprits, not the pilots that paid for their inexperience with their own lives.

 

[CopilotDoug]

No, I wouldn't, but I generally avoid most regional flights because of the lack of experience up front. But, and this is important, I DON'T BLAME MY FELLOW PILOTS, I BLAME MANAGEMENT AND THE SYSTEM!!!!! This crew wasn't at fault for not having the proper experience. Management and the FAA told them that they were perfectly qualified to fly this airplane in this environment. If the FAA had proper minimums for flying Part 121, then this couldn't have happened. If management had cared more about finding qualified applicants, even if meant paying more to get them, then this wouldn't have happened. If management and the FAA would provide schedules that don't induce fatigue, then this wouldn't have happened. If management hadn't intimidated this FO into not calling in sick, then this wouldn't have happened. Seeing a trend here? Many things contribute to an accident. Just placing blame on the pilots does no good. The inexperienced pilots were placed in this situation by negligent managers and government bureaucrats that care more about protecting commerce than customers.

Negligent managers...government bureaucrats...a broken system...just contributing factors leading up to the final outcome. Let's be honest here...if the Captain is fatigued, who is responsible for brining it to the chief pilots attention? If the Copilot has an ear infection, who is responsible for brining that to the chief pilots attention?

I eagerly await your answer, PCL.

 

[PCL_128]

Negligent managers...government bureaucrats...a broken system...just contributing factors leading up to the final outcome. Let's be honest here...if the Captain is fatigued, who is responsible for brining it to the chief pilots attention? If the Copilot has an ear infection, who is responsible for brining that to the chief pilots attention?

A simplistic post from a simplistic man. Fatigue creeps up on you, and in many cases you won't recognize it until you've already made a mistake; in this case, a fatal mistake. Also, expecting a junior copilot on probation at a hostile company to call in sick and risk her job is unrealistic. Most pilots in similar circumstances push themselves to the limit because they fear for their livelihoods. That's a management problem, not a pilot problem. Mrs. Shaw probably felt that she was just barely ok to fly, but she probably wouldn't have pushed it if she didn't feel that she would be in trouble for calling in sick. Punitive sick/fatigue policies cause accidents.

Rather than looking for simplistic "feel good" answers, you should be looking for true solutions to the problems that plague the airline industry, especially the regional segment of the industry.

 

[airplane wizard]

Seems like neither one of them knew what to do when the stick shaker activated. Would the plane have had enough altitude to recover if the pilots did the right thing>

 

[HA25]

Negligent managers...government bureaucrats...a broken system...just contributing factors leading up to the final outcome. Let's be honest here...if the Captain is fatigued, who is responsible for brining it to the chief pilots attention? If the Copilot has an ear infection, who is responsible for brining that to the chief pilots attention?

I eagerly await your answer, PCL.

you clearly work for one of those airlines where calling in sick is a non event.. I had a job like that once... but most of the jobs I held in this crap business have a lot of pressure on keeping staff to a minimum and not calling in sick.

With that said, the caliber of the pilots at the regionals, especially today is something that needs to be studied... the type of person that would work for $17K a year with in this environment where the majors all still have 1000's on furlough and no hiring in sight has to be a person that lacks a certain maturity and quality about them, i.e Caliber.

Quality people seek good paying jobs, or if they're going to work for poor wages, they will have an endgame and an end in sight for accepting those wages... in the past year, going to a regional was economically a death sentence.. not like when guys were going in the early and mid 90's and then onto the majors with in 2-3 years.

 

[HA25]

Seems like neither one of them knew what to do when the stick shaker activated. Would the plane have had enough altitude to recover if the pilots did the right thing>

close to 1/2 a mile of altitude? of course... ATP standard for recovery from a stall are less than 100'.. I have done just about all my type ratings (some to a full stall) with little or no altitude loss... even factoring in being surprised / fatigued... it doesn't take 2300' to recover from a stall..

I had a cockpit smoke in real life a couple of years back.. both myself and my first officer reacted almost out of instinct with minimal discussion and had the aircraft on the ground from 35000' and at night with in 5 min or so.. we reacted out of instinct and training and didn't have to digest the situation.. it's why we're paid as "professional" pilots to be cool, even under emergency conditions.... not so we can go for a ride.

 

[LazyLightnin']

2300' MSL. More like a 1/4 mile agl. But, still, you're absolutely right.

 

[CopilotDoug]

A simplistic post from a simplistic man. Fatigue creeps up on you, and in many cases you won't recognize it until you've already made a mistake; in this case, a fatal mistake.

It's ultimately your responsibility to monitor and catch it before it turns into fatigue. It shouldn't even make it to the level of being fatigued. That's one difference between a professional pilot and a regular pilot.

Also, expecting a junior copilot on probation at a hostile company to call in sick and risk her job is unrealistic.

This is pathetic union hack drivel! Any pilot who wouldn't put their job on the line when it comes to their convictions about safety doesn't need to be sitting in the cockpit of a passenger plane. They clearly have misconceptions about the true stakes involved. That, or they like rolling the dice. Does either one sound like a professional to you?

Most pilots in similar circumstances push themselves to the limit because they fear for their livelihoods.

That's another gem of an emotional buzzword: Livelihood.
Contrary to your Unionist views of protecting the weak, not everyone is entitled to a cockpit in order to support their livelihood.

That's a management problem, not a pilot problem. Mrs. Shaw probably felt that she was just barely ok to fly, but she probably wouldn't have pushed it if she didn't feel that she would be in trouble for calling in sick. Punitive sick/fatigue policies cause accidents.

Rather than looking for simplistic "feel good" answers, you should be looking for true solutions to the problems that plague the airline industry, especially the regional segment of the industry.

Sorry PCL, you're looking everywhere but where you need to, and that is in the mirror. If you'd stop building an ALPA soapbox from the charred remains of a Q400 for one moment, you'd see that this is the way flying has always been. What has changed are pilot training procedures and techniques, a la the pilot-mills. This isn't the pilot pushing you imply from the 1930s. This one ultimately comes down to, and reiterates, the pilots up front being the final say.

If I know my Union Hacks as well as I think I do...you'll go on blaming everyone else.

 

[firstthird]

I had a cockpit smoke in real life a couple of years back.. both myself and my first officer reacted almost out of instinct with minimal discussion and had the aircraft on the ground from 35000' and at night with in 5 min or so..

7000 fpm all the way to the ground? or was it 8500 fpm to 1000 feet and then 1000 fpm to touchdown. I think that either your memory is poor or you are exaggerating or you fly a 9g fighter jet. the 737 certainly won't do much more than 4000 fpm for long w/o exceeding vmo or mmo.

 

[HA25]

2300' MSL. More like a 1/4 mile agl. But, still, you're absolutely right.

sorry, assumed the airport was SL since it's near water... but anyway, you get it..

 

[LazyLightnin']

It's ultimately your responsibility to monitor and catch it before it turns into fatigue. It shouldn't even make it to the level of being fatigued. That's one difference between a professional pilot and a regular pilot.

Remember this little quote the next time you are in line to order that afternoon cup of coffee. Maybe you should save a couple of bucks and go home instead.