Instructor shortage..

[FlyingToIST]

I would like to find out how the schools are coping with instructor shortage. I have had no luck in terms of qualified instructors for instructors that will qualify for assistant chief 141.

There are a lot of the instructors that have fresh ratings, but not some experienced ones..

 

[minitour]

I'm a Chief Flight Instructor and seeing the same thing. How to find qualified individuals?

Pay and QOL.

I decided not too long ago that I really didn't care if I never set foot in the cockpit of a 757, Gee Fife, etc. What matters for me is pay and QOL. Can I afford and maintain a good lifestyle? If the answer is yes, then here I come.

I don't want to be stuck at the airport 15 hours a day to get 7 hours of flight pay...hell, if I never fly but do 6 hours of ground school, that's fine by me too.

I enjoy instructing and want to make a career out of it if I can. That's what it comes down to for me. I'm sure there are others out there that feel the same way.

For the rest of 'em.........it's SJS.

-mini

 

[deadstick]

SJS Aero Club

New idea....

Put CRJ's on the rental line. Forget the 172's and the Seminoles. The way training prices are going, you might not have to raise the rates. They might stay around AND make more than an FO at a regional. After a year as a CFI, 1000 ME turbine PIC. Lookout Majors!

Sorry. Couldn't resist. There are 2 serious issues here: 1) cost of training (to include the user fee debate) and 2) the rapid progression to 121 carriers.

I'm finding CFI shortages all along the East Coast. Some places are paying fairly well (same if not better than regionals and can bill out well over 100 hrs/mo). However, with the regionals are hiring, they can get a 121 job a couple of months after getting the ticket. In the past, a CFI taught for 12-18 months. Now it can be a few as 3. This brings another problem: qualified CFI to sign off the initial CFI.

It's a vicious cycle.

I've heard some places find retired folks to fill the position.

 

[FlyingToIST]

Retired method is the way to go. But then again the qualified ones are getting Part 135 jobs.
The biggest problem is , the cost of training is already pretty high, but I need to charge more for instruction to pay CFIs better..

 

[deadstick]

I've seen some places over $50/hr for the instructor. How much do people pay personal trainers? Other professional consultants/trainers? A bunch more.

Most schools make the margin on the CFI and less on the aircraft.

 

[svcta]

The reason I don't work for a flight school with all my free time is the fact that they charge 40 or 50 bucks an hour and pay instructors 15. SO the world with remain unfortunate in the absence of what I've got to add. It's a sad day. Sniff.

 

[ParrotheadGTI]

flightsafety academy has a huge instructor shortage right now..

 

[RedGuy]

The reason I don't work for a flight school with all my free time is the fact that they charge 40 or 50 bucks an hour and pay instructors 15. SO the world with remain unfortunate in the absence of what I've got to add. It's a sad day. Sniff.

That's the biggest problem right there! It's pretty common to pay $45 an hour for an instructor around here, and like it was said the instructor gets $15, maybe $20. Or you could go independent like I did and charge $45-50 and keep all of it! You can actually make a pretty good living being an instructor once you become well enough known and the flight school's not robbing you of 200% of your pay.

 

[flyf15]

I've seen some places over $50/hr for the instructor. How much do people pay personal trainers? Other professional consultants/trainers? A bunch more.

Most schools make the margin on the CFI and less on the aircraft.

This is the exact issue right there. Everyone needs to change their mindset and realize that instructing needs to be serious business by well qualified individuals. Other one on one service type industries charge double, triple, or more for services rendered by much less qualified individuals. Why shouldn't instruction to learn how to fly AN AIRCRAFT be $75-100/hr? Give the instructor half that plus health care and other benefits and you'll find people that will stick around for longer than 6 months and become experienced enough to help your business grow and be well regarded. Until then, you'll find people who look at your business (flight school) as nothing but a necessary road bump on the way to something else.

 

[svcta]

This is the exact issue right there. Everyone needs to change their mindset and realize that instructing needs to be serious business by well qualified individuals.

Well, let's not get crazy.

 

[deadstick]

Let's look at the numbers...

Assuming a school charges $125/hr for a 172R/S and $50/hr for the instructor:

The school pays the a/c owner $100/hr and the CFI $25/hr -- but tack on, say, 20% for benefits -- that make's the CFI cost $30/hr. This is a 40% margin on the CFI time and 20% on the plane for a total of $45/hr of dual. That works. But look at the expenses. Commercial office, computers, commercial internet service, gas, electricity, insurance, the front desk customer rep -- all of these expenses exist if the CFI bills out 1 hour of dual or 160 hours in a given month.

These are not trivial expenses. FYI a 2006 172SP with the G1000 was $241,000. An average insurance payment (rental/instruction) for just that ONE airplane is about $14-16,000 per year -- again whether it flies 1 hour or 800 hours in a year. The note payment was about $1800-2000/mo, too.

So, why should the CFI care? Would you rather teach is a 1977 POS 172 with 11,000 hours and Sperry coms or a new G1000 bird? Ever lost Navs AND Coms IMC? Ain't fun. The moral of the story is "What's good for the school is good for the CFI, and vice versa." It takes an understanding from both sides. The schools should respect the CFI's and treat them fairly. But the CFI's need to lose this attitude of "entitlement." Many of the up-and-coming young adults have lost the good ol' American work ethic and have added a chip on the shoulder.

I was sitting in this FBO a few months ago. This guy strutted in, chest puffed-out, talking like Roger Rudder. I thought I was in the presence of greatness (NOTE: dripping sarcasm). He was talking the airline talk, flames erupted from is mouth as he talked about scabs and management. Turns out this guy was a former Asst Chief CFI at that school and was doing a little CFI flying on the side. Yea, he had just finished IOE. I do have a point. In the 80’s, 8000 hrs, 3000+ ME turbine PIC was competitive with an airline, and the retail rate for an instructor was $15/hr. Ignoring inflation, the DCA instructors are making more now than the CFI’s of the 80’s. They were probably only making $7-8/hr. The point is that he thought he was Chuck Yeager with his 1000TT and that his poo didn’t stink. I’d be willing to bet that, if he’d been back in the pilot market of the 80’s, at a 1000TT and had been offered a job with an airline, he would have jumped at it regardless of any labor issues. Consequently, he’d be wearing the “Scarlet S” label today. Sorry, this wasn’t the point. The POINT was that this job market has been a lot worse. Folks getting on with the regionals today are extremely fortunate. Yet, many seem to feel that they have “paid their dues” by going around the pattern for 4-6 months.

It’s the sense of entitlement that is poisoning the work force from the CFI side. It’s the “do it as cheaply as possible” attitude that is attacking from the management side. CFI’s: if you like where you work. You have to be loyal to that company and work so the company succeeds. Otherwise, the company will go away. Nobody opens a business to lose money. School Owners: the planes do not fly without CFI’s. Rental is traditionally a small portion of the flight hours. Treat the CFI’s you have fairly and with respect, give them incentives to stay. If you help them succeed, the business will succeed. A happy employee makes the client happy. A happy client tells friends, and the word of mouth is the cheapest and most effective advertising.

One last point:
At 30 hrs billed/wk at $25/hr for 50 wks: $37,500
At 40 hrs billed/wk at $25/hr for 50 wks: $50,000

What’s the 1st year FO pay for the best regional?

Excluding, the airplane income the school will make $30,000 and $40,000, respectfully, for the same times for ONE CFI.

--Stepping down from the soapbox…

 

[flyf15]

Why not flat out double the costs of what students are charged if today's rates are not viable? No other industry operates at a loss like aviation. If people can't afford it, they'll have to go somewhere else. Sure it would suck and I don't wish it to happen, but flight schools should charge enough to make money and compensate their employees properly.

Flight schools have each have millions of dollars of equipment sitting on their flight lines. They have individuals paying tens of thousands of dollars each for training. They have instructors who have spent years obtaining the certification required to teach. Nobody should look at these as mom and pop operations barely squeezing by just so they can advertise their rental rates are $2/hr cheaper than everyone else.

Flying isn't cheap and it never will be. It shouldn't be on the backs of the employees to make it seem like it is. Cut the crap, realize you're a real business, treat your instuctors like real employees, and charge your customers like they're being offered real services.

 

[mynameisjim]

One last point:
At 30 hrs billed/wk at $25/hr for 50 wks: $37,500
At 40 hrs billed/wk at $25/hr for 50 wks: $50,000

What’s the 1st year FO pay for the best regional?


--Stepping down from the soapbox…

How many hours would you have to work to bill 30 or 40 hours every week?

 

[FlyingToIST]

Why not flat out double the costs of what students are charged if today's rates are not viable? No other industry operates at a loss like aviation. If people can't afford it, they'll have to go somewhere else. Sure it would suck and I don't wish it to happen, but flight schools should charge enough to make money and compensate their employees properly.

Flight schools have each have millions of dollars of equipment sitting on their flight lines. They have individuals paying tens of thousands of dollars each for training. They have instructors who have spent years obtaining the certification required to teach. Nobody should look at these as mom and pop operations barely squeezing by just so they can advertise their rental rates are $2/hr cheaper than everyone else.

Flying isn't cheap and it never will be. It shouldn't be on the backs of the employees to make it seem like it is. Cut the crap, realize you're a real business, treat your instuctors like real employees, and charge your customers like they're being offered real services.

A real business is there to make money. I have to tell you that the entire behavior of buying an airline ticket "I want the dirt cheap" is coming to the flight instruction market. 90% of the people who come to us ask about how much it is going to cost them. 5% ask about the insurance.. 5% ask how long it will take them. In two years I have been in the business noone asked me 'Why should I come to you? What are the things that make you different than other schools?" or the best question that they can ask 'how safe are you?'.

Now, let's face it.. I was a full time instructor before.. I saw how a CFI should not be treated.

With the ever dropping age of CFIs, here's what I am experiencing:
- A CFI that I was providing health benefits left in May right before they are supposed get the max amount of hrs in summer.
- Another CFI decided to 'offer his help' to clients that he met through me.
- Another CFI decided to get a full time day job instead of getting a night job or something. (I worked as a telemarketer in my CFI days).

This has happened despite the fact that :
- I pay much better compared to other schools. (The one that charges customers $59/hr pays $13. I charge $36 on average and pay 15 to 20)
- I take all CFIs to dinner every month with their significant others and i pay the bill..
- I provide health benefits to full timers.

Even with this, I am having hard time finding a reliable CFI.

As far as the flight schools are concerned, we have this huge deal of unbelivable fix cost of insurance and office space. Real estate is not cheap and insurance is getting more and more expensive every year.

So, a comment like 'cut the crap' is not only mature, but also very informatimive.. (/sarcasm)

 

[flyf15]

So, a comment like 'cut the crap' is not only mature, but also very informatimive.. (/sarcasm)

You seem to get the bigger picture, and your school seems to be one that I would've liked to have worked for during my years as a CFI. My "cut the crap" comment was pointed at the majority of the flight schools out there that pay their CFIs $9/hr, expect them to clean the building and answer phones for free while not flying, dont offer any benefits. They then skim away all the money for themselves and use that to lower their rates even farther to the point where they still can't make money.

 

[mynameisjim]

I think the days of instructing to 'build time' are over, and it will be difficult to find instructors if you compensate, treat, and hire like they are 'building time'.

 

[SPilot]

Back when I had a work permit, I would bill an average of 27.1 hours a week. For that to happen, I would be at work from 7 in the morning 'til 9 in the evening, or later if I had a night flight, except Saturdays I would catch up on sleep until 9AM. For the most part I had excellent students, and a back-to-back schedule, but things always take time.

It was also regarded "courtesy" not to charge students accurately, i.e. always make 1 hour into 0.7, or charge 1 hour for 2 hours of ground instruction. It doesn't always seem right to charge students $100 for a quick 2-hour session, when I would only make $20.

 

[deadstick]

How many hours would you have to work to bill 30 or 40 hours every week?

This is where the work ethic and a proactive flight school come in. The CFI has to work hard to build a client base. Calling current clients: "Mr. Jones, Joe Smith from the Aero Club, I have an opening in the morning if you have the time." I've heard CFI's say "I'm not a salesman!" Yes they are. To succeed they have to sell themselves.

The flight schools have to get their names out. The schools have to efficiently schedule the resources, ie the CFI's and aircraft.

If both the CFI and the school are doing their parts, in a couple of months, before the CFIs are reaching the mins for the regionals, they should have a full schedule.

How many hours does it take? Idealy, you're at work for 8 and bill for 8, but we know this is not realistic. Taking lunch, a few minutes to prep before the next student, etc., 9 hours, maybe 9.5. Just like a normal job.

One thing that hurts BOTH the CFI and the school is the lost ground time. If the CFI does a brief at the beginning, then preflights with the student (there is always something to discuss), and a post-flight debrief, then there is no reason that a 1.3 hr flight shouldn't get the CFI 2.0 hrs. Many people would only add 0.2 or 0.3. You're just cheating yourself, and the company.

Let's take that example. Let say the CFI does not charge 0.2 hrs/sortie that SHOULD be charged (I'm NOT talking about padding the invoice), flies 4 sorties/day, 5 days/wk, and 50 wks/year...that CFI will lose 200 hours--that's $5000.

It adds up.

 

[flyf15]

One thing that hurts BOTH the CFI and the school is the lost ground time. If the CFI does a brief at the beginning, then preflights with the student (there is always something to discuss), and a post-flight debrief, then there is no reason that a 1.3 hr flight shouldn't get the CFI 2.0 hrs. Many people would only add 0.2 or 0.3. You're just cheating yourself, and the company.

Let's take that example. Let say the CFI does not charge 0.2 hrs/sortie that SHOULD be charged (I'm NOT talking about padding the invoice), flies 4 sorties/day, 5 days/wk, and 50 wks/year...that CFI will lose 200 hours--that's $5000.

It adds up.

I hate that CFIs do this, and students come to expect it. Ground time can often be much more valuable than flight time as far as what the student learns. I made sure my students knew that I was going to charge them from start of lesson to finish, but I was fair. If I took 5 minutes to go to the bathroom, eat a snack, etc between the ground and flight portions, I would take 0.1 off the bill and I would explain it to them while I was charging them. Your student is not your buddy from college, it is not your obligation to finance their training out of your pocket. You are a provider of a service and they are your customer.

I once had a student that couldn't understand why I was charging him 0.8 hours of ground time on lessons while his other CFIs charged him 0.2-0.3 and he told me I was ripping him off. Our average ground sessions were 1.0 or so, I was still giving him a good deal but it was engrained into his head that ground was "free". He also used to get really confused as to why he'd come in and we'd cancel due to weather, and I'd go to charge him for the hour we spent on the ground talking about stuff.

When I was independently instructing, I put a minimum charge on every lesson for coming out to the airport, commonly 2.0... and that was at $50/hr. But, they knew they were getting their money's worth/getting good instruction. They knew that I was going to dedicate that 2.0 to them and give them the best instruction available and be efficient and productive with their time. They knew that I was fair, everything was out in the open and understood well beforehand. And you know what? I, one of the most expensive instructors in the area (but also one of the most well regarded), was constantly turning down business while $20/hr CFIs that would give you free ground were having trouble mustering up students.

Don't advertise and try to win customers on costs. You advertise your capabilities, special traits, qualifications, experience, etc and your costs should fall in line with what you are providing. If the student isn't willing to pay it, then they can go somewhere else and pay half as much and get instruction that is 1/3 the quality.

 

[deadstick]

IBut, they knew they were getting their money's worth/getting good instruction.

BINGO! Provide a quality product, charge a premium price. I don't think Honda negotiates very much on their cars. They don't need to.

For the school, what are your averages? Are they less than the the national average? Are you 141? What's the safety record? Age of the aircraft? These are some selling points in comparison to "the other guy."