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Initial DAL pilot deal details
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A few more details emerging, from a very reliable source. I can confirm what Michael posted about more CRJ7s for DCI carriers, with any additional CRJ7 dependent on an increase in mainline block hours. No word on block hour ratios, but that may be a moot point since mainline block hours need to increase in order for more CRJ7s to go to DCI.
Profit sharing will be 10% for any DAL yearly profit between $500M-$1.5B, above $1.5B profit sharing will be 20%. Obviously no profits no bonus.
Any accrued defined benefit will be maintained. The basic formula I believe is 2.4% FAE x number of years. As an example a DAL pilot with 20 years of service will have a defined benefit 48% of his FAE, a DAL pilot with 8 years would have a defined benefit of 19.2% of his FAE.
The Defined Contribution % is dependent on how many years you have left at DAL. For example a 44 year old dead zoner would get a 14% contribution each month in his own account.
401(k) will be matched at 2%
The 30,000,000 options have not had their strike price set yet and won't until December 1st. So DAL pilots will not benefit from the recent surge in DAL stock. As it was explained to me, SEC rules prohibit our strike price from being lower than at the time the options are issued.
That's all for now.
Profit sharing will be 10% for any DAL yearly profit between $500M-$1.5B, above $1.5B profit sharing will be 20%. Obviously no profits no bonus.
Any accrued defined benefit will be maintained. The basic formula I believe is 2.4% FAE x number of years. As an example a DAL pilot with 20 years of service will have a defined benefit 48% of his FAE, a DAL pilot with 8 years would have a defined benefit of 19.2% of his FAE.
The Defined Contribution % is dependent on how many years you have left at DAL. For example a 44 year old dead zoner would get a 14% contribution each month in his own account.
401(k) will be matched at 2%
The 30,000,000 options have not had their strike price set yet and won't until December 1st. So DAL pilots will not benefit from the recent surge in DAL stock. As it was explained to me, SEC rules prohibit our strike price from being lower than at the time the options are issued.
That's all for now.
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General Lee
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Also, I just read on our Dalpa website that the furlough recalls will continue, except they will be slowed down, to finish in 2008 instead of 2006.
And, for retirements on DEC 1st, the current pay rates will be used. If you retire after Dec 1st, then the new rates will be used, and that will hurt your FAE because things like unused vacation etc will be using lower rates. Expect a lot of retirements on DEC 1st, but obviously some of them will remain until their replacements are trained.....
Bye Bye--General Lee
And, for retirements on DEC 1st, the current pay rates will be used. If you retire after Dec 1st, then the new rates will be used, and that will hurt your FAE because things like unused vacation etc will be using lower rates. Expect a lot of retirements on DEC 1st, but obviously some of them will remain until their replacements are trained.....
Bye Bye--General Lee
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"And I suppose you started your career at $250/hr? Perhaps I should just wait until that opportunity comes along."
Never said I did.......I made that same 24.50 an hour myself at one point. But I never responded to somebody who is taking a pay cut by b!tching and moaning about my salary or throwing insults around. I knew what the salary was, I accepted it by continuing to work there. You don't like making 24.50 an hour....don't work there.
Never said I did.......I made that same 24.50 an hour myself at one point. But I never responded to somebody who is taking a pay cut by b!tching and moaning about my salary or throwing insults around. I knew what the salary was, I accepted it by continuing to work there. You don't like making 24.50 an hour....don't work there.
~~~^~~~
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General there is still hope. My understanding ( subject to correction as facts roll out ) is that furlough protection & scope issues involving the DCI carriers were delayed due to the complexity of the situation ( ie ALPA National uncomfortable with the way the RJDC litigation is progressing ) and that the issue will be revisited when there is more time to be deliberate. That probably is not a bad thing and hopefully something mutually beneficial can be worked out.
The RJ70's bring in 40% more revenue with about the same costs of -200's. We really don't need more 50 seat jets. Delta, the Delta pilots and the DCI pilots have common interests. If ALPA is willing to progress deliberately and correctly, this could be an opportunity to get the guys back flying again.
These are significant cuts and I hope this does not ring hollow, but "thank you." I hope Delta will be around for a long time.
~~~^~~~
The RJ70's bring in 40% more revenue with about the same costs of -200's. We really don't need more 50 seat jets. Delta, the Delta pilots and the DCI pilots have common interests. If ALPA is willing to progress deliberately and correctly, this could be an opportunity to get the guys back flying again.
These are significant cuts and I hope this does not ring hollow, but "thank you." I hope Delta will be around for a long time.
~~~^~~~
General Lee
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Fins,
I want that too, and I also want our furloughs to come back ASAP. I understand that Delta is in "cost savings mode" right now. I personally don't mind if DCI gets more CR7s--especially if it does contribute to the bottom line. And, I think it is prudent for Dalpa to ask for a provision that aligns the number of CR7s to the growth of mainline---that seems fair. The more growth, the faster our furloughs will come back. With our costs lower, more growth should eventually come too.
Bye Bye--General Lee
I want that too, and I also want our furloughs to come back ASAP. I understand that Delta is in "cost savings mode" right now. I personally don't mind if DCI gets more CR7s--especially if it does contribute to the bottom line. And, I think it is prudent for Dalpa to ask for a provision that aligns the number of CR7s to the growth of mainline---that seems fair. The more growth, the faster our furloughs will come back. With our costs lower, more growth should eventually come too.
Bye Bye--General Lee
General Lee
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Where did you get the 2008 thing for all furloughs to be returned??? I thought we were not going to pay more than anyone else??? If I am not back till 2008 that is seven years with no pay. That is a lot of money to give up. General I hope your wrong as I can't seem to get into the ALPA website.
TK+0
TK+0
General Lee
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michael707767
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michael707767
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Wonderful 2+ more years out of work and DCI gets unlimited 70 seaters. No wonder they don't have to call us back. Why would they, when they now have carte blanch to replace us. This TA stinks, as if a 32% paycut was not enough I was at least happy with that now I get to take it for two more years.
michael707767
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Oakum_Boy
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Nothing's voided, those jets will be 50 seaters. I seriously doubt Bombardier could come up with 70 seaters out of the blue for delivery starting in a few months. It is possible that something will be arranged to delay delivery in hopes of converting those orders when the scope allows. 70 seaters are definitely a better product. Hopefully Delta will buy some nice 737-800's, my personal favorite; or the new 7E7. That would be nice.7KCAB said:
General Lee
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dtfl
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2008?
So the 2008 means the madatory recall is no longer complete by 2006 but 2008? Faster depending upon growth but the company is only bound to 08?
And I have never dealt with a PBS - any details from the Express days?
I guess it's all a moot point. I think I might be finding another career and giving Delta it's **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** job back.
So the 2008 means the madatory recall is no longer complete by 2006 but 2008? Faster depending upon growth but the company is only bound to 08?
And I have never dealt with a PBS - any details from the Express days?
I guess it's all a moot point. I think I might be finding another career and giving Delta it's **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** job back.
Sandman, you are correct. At NWA, we use a PBS system completely unlike the systems that DAL, Comair and I think AWA tried.sandman2122 said:
Instead of using a limited "weighted" system, which limits your direct control and instead allows you to provide a "weight" to certain parameters in the vain hope something decent winds up on your line, the NWA system allows the pilots direct control over the trips and trip parameters, as well as the credit window and days off, in addition to allowing multiple bidding strategies (including commute setup).
The great thing about the system is that you don't have to settle for "half a glass". If one bid group fails to award you a complete schedule, it moves on to the next, where you can try something else. With the amount of bid lines allowed, you can often try 20-25 bid groups.
You are also correct in saying the MEC and the Computer Bidding Committee have alot of power. They can pull the plug on it at any time...but it has been in place at NWA since 1997-8, and has been fleetwide (except reserve) since around 2000. Blockholders report over 95% bid satisfaction. It has improved the junior pilots lives immensely.
Nu
~~~^~~~
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ASA could ( if allowed under scope ) convert the current 25 RFP airplanes to -700's, but it has to be done almost immediately. ASA has arranged 100% financing for these airplanes and is poised to execute the transaction, if allowed to do so. Source, Skip Barnette a week ago at a Captain Leadership class.
CHQ costs are low, but probably not as low as ASA on the CRJ-700. ASA has the infastructure in place to support the airplane at no additional cost compared to the -200's. There is a reason why ASA got the larger share of the RFP aircraft, as well as offers to do the MCO flying ( which we turned down). There is also the issue of labor peace at ASA. CRJ-700's would really anger a group of pilots who are in full blown section 6 negotiations.
If CHQ gets the CRJ700 under DCI I would strongly suspect ALPA's influence under a jets for jobs program, similar to what is going on at Northwest. Lets not go there....
In any event, capacity at ASA will fuel mainline's growth and get the furloughs back faster. After all when I hired in the percentage of passengers getting off my airplane and on to Delta's was 80%. Today that number is 82%. We are being used to feed mainline - the more the better. Further, the -700 is a tool that can be deployed to combat AAI, US Air and the other competitors. The -200 probably is not a money maker for Delta in that role.
~~~^~~~
CHQ costs are low, but probably not as low as ASA on the CRJ-700. ASA has the infastructure in place to support the airplane at no additional cost compared to the -200's. There is a reason why ASA got the larger share of the RFP aircraft, as well as offers to do the MCO flying ( which we turned down). There is also the issue of labor peace at ASA. CRJ-700's would really anger a group of pilots who are in full blown section 6 negotiations.
If CHQ gets the CRJ700 under DCI I would strongly suspect ALPA's influence under a jets for jobs program, similar to what is going on at Northwest. Lets not go there....
In any event, capacity at ASA will fuel mainline's growth and get the furloughs back faster. After all when I hired in the percentage of passengers getting off my airplane and on to Delta's was 80%. Today that number is 82%. We are being used to feed mainline - the more the better. Further, the -700 is a tool that can be deployed to combat AAI, US Air and the other competitors. The -200 probably is not a money maker for Delta in that role.
~~~^~~~
Finns,
I agree in theory about the feed, but the ability to fly 70 seaters would hamper the call back as they will get rid of 737-200 and probabaly replace them with 70's. This is my opinion only based on nothing I have heard, but ASA and Comair have grown gangbusters while I have been on furlough.
This seems to me a way that Delta could continue to outsource mainline flying even though they will probably have mass retirements. I hope your right about it getting us back faster, but I doubt it from what I have heard today.
The only shining star is that maybe just maybe the DoJet deal will help out Skyway and help Delta revamp where needed.
I agree in theory about the feed, but the ability to fly 70 seaters would hamper the call back as they will get rid of 737-200 and probabaly replace them with 70's. This is my opinion only based on nothing I have heard, but ASA and Comair have grown gangbusters while I have been on furlough.
This seems to me a way that Delta could continue to outsource mainline flying even though they will probably have mass retirements. I hope your right about it getting us back faster, but I doubt it from what I have heard today.
The only shining star is that maybe just maybe the DoJet deal will help out Skyway and help Delta revamp where needed.
As far as CHQ Operating Costs, I have them here for you:
For 2004:
Total CASM: 10.42
Excl. Fuel: 8.3
Of important note (comparing Embraer vs. Canadair)
CASM: 2.76 for Aircraft leases/payments, engine rent, mtc, and repair
If someone could provide ASA or Comair's numbers I would appreciate it.
I know everyone likes to say it is because of our Pilot Wages, but I think it could be more in tune with aircraft associated costs. By comparing a $17 Million 135/145 and $25 Million 170 to the associated CRJ-200 and -700 cost. Multiply this by 50 aircraft and you could have one heck of a difference with interest.
Delta might be interested in CHQ or other to fly those aircraft, because if they have ASA or Comair fly them then Delta has to Bank role the aircraft, which financially might not be as feasible as some outside feeder (a la NWA new T/A).
Another interesting note is that Wages aside, CHQ has a much younger workforce curve as ASA and Comair, which by pay on longevity would in effect create a lower cost per ASM for wages (like Southwest). I could not find a separate Pilot only wage and benefit CASM to post on here to compare.
On another note, Delta Mainline Execs were in Indy crawling all over one the new 170's we have for United 2 weeks ago. I was there for slide training, and one of the aircraft was "busy" for their showing.
Maybe I read the tone wrong of one of the previous posts about operating costs, and I was just hoping we could clear it up. Either way, I wish the Delta, Comair, and ASA people the best. I have friends at all places and want to see them grow as well.
Dan
For 2004:
Total CASM: 10.42
Excl. Fuel: 8.3
Of important note (comparing Embraer vs. Canadair)
CASM: 2.76 for Aircraft leases/payments, engine rent, mtc, and repair
If someone could provide ASA or Comair's numbers I would appreciate it.
I know everyone likes to say it is because of our Pilot Wages, but I think it could be more in tune with aircraft associated costs. By comparing a $17 Million 135/145 and $25 Million 170 to the associated CRJ-200 and -700 cost. Multiply this by 50 aircraft and you could have one heck of a difference with interest.
Delta might be interested in CHQ or other to fly those aircraft, because if they have ASA or Comair fly them then Delta has to Bank role the aircraft, which financially might not be as feasible as some outside feeder (a la NWA new T/A).
Another interesting note is that Wages aside, CHQ has a much younger workforce curve as ASA and Comair, which by pay on longevity would in effect create a lower cost per ASM for wages (like Southwest). I could not find a separate Pilot only wage and benefit CASM to post on here to compare.
On another note, Delta Mainline Execs were in Indy crawling all over one the new 170's we have for United 2 weeks ago. I was there for slide training, and one of the aircraft was "busy" for their showing.
Maybe I read the tone wrong of one of the previous posts about operating costs, and I was just hoping we could clear it up. Either way, I wish the Delta, Comair, and ASA people the best. I have friends at all places and want to see them grow as well.
Dan
General Lee
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Tony C,
Come on now. Since we know that many will leave Nov 1st or Dec 1st, having 500 Captains leave all at once would ground the widebodies and be terrible for the airline. That could not happen, and those retired guys will only stay as long as they have to to have somebody junior trained. Also, the recalls are not just stopping, they are slowing down, and many of those furloughed early have moved on to Jetblue etc, so the recalls may move swiftly.
TBKANE,
I know you are pi$$ed to say the least. I personally hope you are back a lot sooner than 2008. The 70 seat RJs will not replace the 100 seater (737-200), and they can only get more 70 seaters if mainline grows. If we contract, they will not get as many. With our credit ratings slowly rising, it will be easier to get some type of financing to eventually replace the 737-200s, and I have heard a myriad of different airplanes that could take their place---like the 736, 737-700, A318, EMB-190, and Space Shuttle. Dean Bloom, the sys chief pilot, stated the 737-700 would be a perfect "Shuttle Aircraft" (For the NYC Shuttle?). I don't know why you would use a long range aircraft on the Shuttle, but who knows? I bet it could be something that we already have sims for and are training on--like the 737-700 or -600. But, this is all moot if we still file for bankruptcy or don't approve this TA. It really is all up in the air----literally.
Fins,
I don't know about how many 70 seaters Delta will take, and I don't know who will get them.....Also, I thought Skywest had lower costs also? Could they get some?
Bye Bye--General Lee
Come on now. Since we know that many will leave Nov 1st or Dec 1st, having 500 Captains leave all at once would ground the widebodies and be terrible for the airline. That could not happen, and those retired guys will only stay as long as they have to to have somebody junior trained. Also, the recalls are not just stopping, they are slowing down, and many of those furloughed early have moved on to Jetblue etc, so the recalls may move swiftly.
TBKANE,
I know you are pi$$ed to say the least. I personally hope you are back a lot sooner than 2008. The 70 seat RJs will not replace the 100 seater (737-200), and they can only get more 70 seaters if mainline grows. If we contract, they will not get as many. With our credit ratings slowly rising, it will be easier to get some type of financing to eventually replace the 737-200s, and I have heard a myriad of different airplanes that could take their place---like the 736, 737-700, A318, EMB-190, and Space Shuttle. Dean Bloom, the sys chief pilot, stated the 737-700 would be a perfect "Shuttle Aircraft" (For the NYC Shuttle?). I don't know why you would use a long range aircraft on the Shuttle, but who knows? I bet it could be something that we already have sims for and are training on--like the 737-700 or -600. But, this is all moot if we still file for bankruptcy or don't approve this TA. It really is all up in the air----literally.
Fins,
I don't know about how many 70 seaters Delta will take, and I don't know who will get them.....Also, I thought Skywest had lower costs also? Could they get some?
Bye Bye--General Lee
TonyC
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Aw, General Lee, come on now.General Lee said:
You and I both know the mass exodus of Captains could be halted with an assurance from the company that their retirement would be protected. There was no need to weaken the furlough protection, and there was no need to employ non-Delta pilots to fly Delta airplanes while Delta pilots remain on furlough.
You just can't stand there with a straight face after having voted for that and apologize to a furloughee for another 2 years of unemployment. It's disingenuous.
There were several ways to address the problem of wideboy captain retirements, and you picked a lousy one. In the process, you attacked the furloughees.
Let me ask you a question. What would you think about this scheme? Every time a widebody Captain decides to retire, you lock in his retirement while he continues to work. Immediately you recall the next furloughee in line and send him to widebody Captain school. The day he finishes IOE in the left seat of the widebody, the retired Captain is finished - - done - - hasta la vista. See, there you have no widebodies parked - - problem solved.
Not fair?
Neither is the TA you voted for.
Don't pretend to feel sorry for furloughees.
Ganja60Heavy
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